Reaction Question
- Thread starter shmitty
- Start date
But would it count as the Reaction of the transport as well? In a normal boarding/unboarding situation, both the transported unit and the transport lose an action. It seems a little weird to have the unit react to jump in the transport, and then have the transport react to run for cover. If those happened during your turn, they would take the entire turn, after all.
retaf33c
Mongoose
This is actually an interesting question because some transports can't react. So if it counts as a reaction for the transport also but the transport can't react, then is the squad allowed to mount up?
I could see this going either way; however, I'm incline to say the squad can mount up with out a problem.
I could see this going either way; however, I'm incline to say the squad can mount up with out a problem.
The Old Soldier
Mongoose
NO!!
This is so simple. A unit may react unless the card states otherwise. Plain and simple. (only 1 reaction per unit per turn like it states in the rulebook)
Example: PLA infantry squad and a WZ-551 IFV are both in reaction range when a enemy squad finishes it action within 10".
The infantry could take a move reaction to load itself on the WZ. But the WZ could not react.
Example 2: PLA infantry squad is already loaded in the WZ-551 IFV, and a enemy unit finishes it action within 10". Because a squad loaded does not count as being on the table, only the WZ-551 could react, but the card states the WZ can not react. SO there is no reaction to the enemy.
Example 3: MEA militia and a MEA technical are both in reaction range when a enemy squad finishes it action within 10". The MEA militia reacts by moving onto the Technical. The Technical reacts by moving out of LOS of the enemy squad.
Example 3A: Same situation, but this time the Tech reacts first my firing on the enemy, then the MEA militia reacts by moving onto the technical.
Example 3B: Same situation, but this time the MEA moves onto the Tech as it's reaction then the Tech takes a shoot reaction to allow 4 MEA troop models to fire at the -1 penality. Note: the Tech can not fire because of the card rules and conditions.
The rules cover all the above. Between the basic rules and the special rules on the cards.
This is so simple. A unit may react unless the card states otherwise. Plain and simple. (only 1 reaction per unit per turn like it states in the rulebook)
Example: PLA infantry squad and a WZ-551 IFV are both in reaction range when a enemy squad finishes it action within 10".
The infantry could take a move reaction to load itself on the WZ. But the WZ could not react.
Example 2: PLA infantry squad is already loaded in the WZ-551 IFV, and a enemy unit finishes it action within 10". Because a squad loaded does not count as being on the table, only the WZ-551 could react, but the card states the WZ can not react. SO there is no reaction to the enemy.
Example 3: MEA militia and a MEA technical are both in reaction range when a enemy squad finishes it action within 10". The MEA militia reacts by moving onto the Technical. The Technical reacts by moving out of LOS of the enemy squad.
Example 3A: Same situation, but this time the Tech reacts first my firing on the enemy, then the MEA militia reacts by moving onto the technical.
Example 3B: Same situation, but this time the MEA moves onto the Tech as it's reaction then the Tech takes a shoot reaction to allow 4 MEA troop models to fire at the -1 penality. Note: the Tech can not fire because of the card rules and conditions.
The rules cover all the above. Between the basic rules and the special rules on the cards.
The Old Soldier
Mongoose
Thanks retaf. I was only thinking in terms of reactions.
The Old Soldier said:
Um, for answering so emphatically in the negative, all of your examples seem to say "yes". So I'm not sure if I'm arguing or agreeing with you.
Rules as written:
Hiromoon's Warrior Card said:
So, rules as written say that an infantry unit may react by moving on to the Warrior (mounting it), and then the Warrior could react by moving.
My problem with this is: if I took these actions on my turn, it would use up both actions of the infantry and the Warrior. If I do them in reaction, it uses up a single reaction from the infantry and Warrior. Reactions are generally more restricted than actions, so this seems doubly counter-intuitive. I don't know that it's broken or anything, it just seems backwards is all.
The Old Soldier
Mongoose
Not really remember a unit may only react ONCE per turn. Also, I do not have the Official warrior card. If the card does not say the warrior may not react then it can. I do know you can't react with the main gun.
Just play as written the penality for loading and unloading is for the ACTIONS, not REACTIONS. I just do not see what the problem is. Mind you a loaded unit could not react by unloading because it does not count as being on the table while loaded. Some vehicles can react others can't it is all on the cards.
BTW: The NO was because the subject was getting all mixed up, so instead I made a clean state with the NO statement and started from the beginning to answer the question, then gave examples.
Just play as written the penality for loading and unloading is for the ACTIONS, not REACTIONS. I just do not see what the problem is. Mind you a loaded unit could not react by unloading because it does not count as being on the table while loaded. Some vehicles can react others can't it is all on the cards.
BTW: The NO was because the subject was getting all mixed up, so instead I made a clean state with the NO statement and started from the beginning to answer the question, then gave examples.
A really fine line is defined with TOS's example 3B. If it was considered as the reaction of the Technical (and it was) the boarded troops could fire as a reaction. But those are still the very same troops that had just spent their one reaction in boarding the vehicle so someone could argue (not me) that they were taking an unauthorised second reaction. Once they are loaded they become the vehicle in a way, too. It's just interesting to think that they are somehow getting away with something, heh (those little sneaky guys!). :wink:
Another way to look at it is that as the troops are trying to load up the vehicle is simultaneously driving away with them running after it. I mean, wouldn't it be all happening at the same time? I think that is what Xorrander is saying.
Another way to look at it is that as the troops are trying to load up the vehicle is simultaneously driving away with them running after it. I mean, wouldn't it be all happening at the same time? I think that is what Xorrander is saying.
One nit-picky way to resolve this is to think of the key word of "simultaneous" reactions. You might allow the troops to board and the Technical to only fire as if it was empty because the boarding troops would have to fire over their backs as they were loading. :wink:
If the Technical decided to move, it would have to empty. It could not fire with the loaded "cargo" as they are busy getting in the vehicle during that time period. It does limit the options from the full spectrum but is more true to the time sequence limitations.
Well, what's the consensus?
If the Technical decided to move, it would have to empty. It could not fire with the loaded "cargo" as they are busy getting in the vehicle during that time period. It does limit the options from the full spectrum but is more true to the time sequence limitations.
Well, what's the consensus?
The Old Soldier said:
??? Reactions allow you to make "a free move or shoot action" during your opponent's turn. So "reactions" are "actions", although "actions" aren't always "reactions". Not that I'm sure what distinction you're trying to make...
The penalty for loading and unloading is that both units are restricted to one action during the turn. Since, on your opponent's turn, your units are always restricted to one action, this doesn't seem like much of a penalty. Remember, you take a turn, then your opponent takes a turn; you don't both activate in a single turn. So the penalty will not transfer to the next turn that you're an active player. It will be applied in the current turn, just like the rules say, which means that you ignore the penalty completely.
Now, I'm not going to go out of my way to get figures shot at so I can set up this little trick, so I don't see it as being particularly game-breaking. But I don't see it as making much sense.
BuShips said:
Well, remember, in the days of the old Republic, MI would get infinite reactions, until their Arachnid foes got close enough to eat them. The MEA clearly just retained some of that ability
.Seriously, this'll happen rarely enough that I don't think it's a problem. You want me to a) jump onto a transport, where a single hit will take out half the squad, so that I can b) fire at a penalty? I think I'll just stand here and open up, myself...
BuShips said:
Current consensus (I think): Yes, you can. And there's no penalty for the next turn. (But some of us aren't happy about it...)
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
I'd have to vote no, because there's no second action to sacrifice for either the troops or the transport if they're reacting.
Lorcan Nagle said:
So you're saying that in TOS example 3 (basic, no alphas) that the Technical could move away but it would have to do so empty (and sorry for switching quickly from 3B to 3)? That at least would compress the options that could be taken within a Reaction and not gain a loophole of duplicating what is possible within a full Player Turn. :idea:
The Old Soldier
Mongoose
The examples I gave are the rules as written, which in this case is very good. The penality for loading and unloading is one Action during the players turn. Reactions have the penality of only being able to be used once per the other players turn.
As for example 3B while the troops are allowed by the special rule on the technical to fire, it is the Technical that is taking the shoot action. NOTE: The damage from this action is much less that if the PKM on the tech had fired itself. So no big deal. 4D6 with a minus 1 to the roll vs. 3D6 that counts as two for suppression. I'll take the PKM everytime.
THE SAME amount of time passes during your turn as the opponents turn. PLUS, no unit may unload as a reaction. There are restrictions.
The more I play the game the greater respect I have with the basic system that MP has put together.
I give up, muck it up all you want. Because as far as I'm concerned MP got this one RIGHT.
As for example 3B while the troops are allowed by the special rule on the technical to fire, it is the Technical that is taking the shoot action. NOTE: The damage from this action is much less that if the PKM on the tech had fired itself. So no big deal. 4D6 with a minus 1 to the roll vs. 3D6 that counts as two for suppression. I'll take the PKM everytime.
THE SAME amount of time passes during your turn as the opponents turn. PLUS, no unit may unload as a reaction. There are restrictions.
The more I play the game the greater respect I have with the basic system that MP has put together.
I give up, muck it up all you want. Because as far as I'm concerned MP got this one RIGHT.
Depends on how anal you want to be in interpretting the cards in situations like:
"The WZ-551 may never make any reactions."
"The Warrior may never make any reactions."
Technical/Shadow - no limitation
To me that just means the transport can't do anything beyond sit still and let the grunts board.
"The WZ-551 may never make any reactions."
"The Warrior may never make any reactions."
Technical/Shadow - no limitation
To me that just means the transport can't do anything beyond sit still and let the grunts board.
The Old Soldier
Mongoose
That is how I read it.
The Shadows and Techs can react and troops can board them in a reaction. Then if the Tech or Shadow is also within the reaction it too can do something.
Unless players change the wording on the vehicle cards or MP does, there is cool combos that can be done in certain situations if you set your troops up correctly with Shadows and Technicals.
What I don't understand is WHY the WZ-551 doesn't have rules about it's firing ports on the side of the vehicle. After all it is just a updated version of the BTR60PB which is a russian vehicle. It also has gun ports for the troops riding in them. If you look at the WZ-551 you will see the ports on one side of the model, but for some reason not on the other side. What is with that?
The Shadows and Techs can react and troops can board them in a reaction. Then if the Tech or Shadow is also within the reaction it too can do something.
Unless players change the wording on the vehicle cards or MP does, there is cool combos that can be done in certain situations if you set your troops up correctly with Shadows and Technicals.
What I don't understand is WHY the WZ-551 doesn't have rules about it's firing ports on the side of the vehicle. After all it is just a updated version of the BTR60PB which is a russian vehicle. It also has gun ports for the troops riding in them. If you look at the WZ-551 you will see the ports on one side of the model, but for some reason not on the other side. What is with that?
The Old Soldier said:
So, just to be clear: if you load as a Reaction, no penalty is paid, ever. Correct?
The Old Soldier said:
Hmm, someone is confusing "Some of us aren't happy" with "OMG, Mongoose is teh suxxorz, hack this rulez now!!11one". This "loading as a reaction" would be the only case where a reaction is more efficient than an action. That's counterintuitive. But wargames tend to have counterintuitive things happen every day, and twice on Sundays. They don't all have to have errata or house rules to correct them.
