Re: Driver(wheeled) skill

[CosmicGamer]

Re: "professional drivers" I used to think people over inflated their drive(wheeled) ability but now I question what peoples perception of professional is. In Traveller terms I believe we can agree that a race car driver or stunt driver could be considered a professional. How about
A taxi driver, bus driver, tractor trailer driver, tow truck driver.
Someone making a living as a delivery driver.
Driving many miles every day from location to location doing on site service.

I've done delivery work once when right out of high school and again later in life for additional income. In college I had a summer job driving new cars back and forth between parking lots and prep locations. I once had a job driving cars from the parking lot through the auction block and back to the parking lot. These were all jobs that required me to do pretty much just one thing all day - drive. All that was required was a good driving and criminal record. None of these jobs required any special training other than simple and short safety classes of less than a day. I've taken longer and more in depth driving courses to lower my insurance rates.

Many people probably have worked in a profession where driving was a portion or all of their job. Does this make them a level 2 "professional"?

 

[Sturn]

Many people probably have worked in a profession where driving was a portion or all of their job. Does this make them a level 2 "professional"?

I had this debate with a Traveller friend before involving this exact skill. Here was what I argued:

Imagine the Traveller world of Esempio, TL 12 with a small population, but extremely wealthy. It is a vacc world with a luxurious settlement on the ground. But, all work and education is done upon an orbital station. At 15 years of age, the rich colony delivers a Launch to the doorstep of every citizen. They are instructed how to pilot the craft and fly it almost everyday for work, school, or leisure. By age 18, any citizen has logged more then 200 hours, which is equal to most trained Navy shuttle pilots in their first term (Pilot/smallcraft at least 0, you could argue 1).

Esempio is known for its lack of safe aeronautical and space traffic laws. Near misses and accidents in Esempio's launches are a way of life. By age 30, most citizens have been in a small craft accident of some sort. Dangerous, but a breeding ground for pilot's of great nerve and skill. By 30, the average citizen has logged over 2,000 hours of flight time, sometimes in a stressful environment, making them experts at the helm (Pilot/smallcraft 2). By their 40's, many citizens can claim even greater skills.

I obviously just took the example of a US driver and converted into Traveller terms. It takes you only around 40 flight hours to obtain a civilian's flight license - Pilot 0. It takes 250 hours to qualify for a commercial pilot's license - Pilot 1. With the hours I expressed above, I think a substantial portion of this world's population could qualify for Driver 2, even those that don't drive as part of their profession.

A taxi driver, bus driver, tractor trailer driver, tow truck driver.

You forgot cops! They actually receive high speed driver training, often have to retrain, and patrol officers can easily log 20 hours a week sometimes under stress (not talking about the rare chase, just having to run "code" commonly through town at a high speed). Thats over 10,000 hours for a 10-year officer, with a substantial portion of the drive time other then just casual. Hard to argue he/she doesn't have Driver - 2.

 

[Home Brewed Dave]

You forgot cops! They actually receive high speed driver training, often have to retrain, and patrol officers can easily log 20 hours a week sometimes under stress (not talking about the rare chase, just having to run "code" commonly through town at a high speed). Thats over 10,000 hours for a 10-year officer, with a substantial portion of the drive time other then just casual. Hard to argue he/she doesn't have Driver - 2.

Truth be told, it would be hard to argue that a Police officer after completing their training only has Drive skill of 2.

After all, you have to drive BACKWARDS through an L shaped slalom, at 45mph, in a Police Cruiser, without knocking over any of the cones, to complete the driving portion of the test.

All the things I was taught in "Tactical Driving" would make the average officer able to whip a Lincoln Navigator through traffic better than the Stig in Porsche Carrera GT! (over kill i know, but closer to the truth than you think)

 

[rust]

Many people probably have worked in a profession where driving was a portion or all of their job. Does this make them a level 2 "professional"?

Yes, I think so.

I am not sure when it comes to the orbital launches mentioned in Sturn's
example. A professional pilot needs more than just the ability to fly his
craft from A to B, his training usually includes a range of subjects normal-
ly not required of a hobby pilot, like craft type specific safety procedures
training in the simulator, instrumental flight, air traffic protocols and all
that.

 

[DFW]

Truth be told, it would be hard to argue that a Police officer after completing their training only has Drive skill of 2.

No, not at all. Skill level 2 as part of the definition is, YEARS of experience along with the training. So, not hard to argue at all.

 

[far-trader]

In my opinion and experience it is the training not the time that makes the difference between professional and amateur.

People (in general) do still have a hyperinflated sense of their own "skill" when it comes to driving (and many other things). It's a big part of the reason why there are so many "accidents" on the roads.

Training will teach the skills and knowledge to anticipate and deal with the unexpected, years on the road will not. That is one of the biggest differences between being skilled and professional as opposed to thinking you're skilled and professional because you've been driving for decades.

So no, all those careers where you have to drive a lot do not automatically result in skill or being ranked professional. Just the ones where you take and learn additional driving skills training. In the examples listed so far:

Professional: Drive 2 or better

Police who take and pass the special training.

Amateur: Drive 1 or less

Stunt car driver (except in that of safely crashing for cameras)

Taxi driver (have you ridden in many taxis?!)

Bus driver (again have you ridden many!?)

Tractor trailer driver (no disrespect, but again, no)

Tow truck driver (again no, attending to vehicle accidents does not make one a better driver*)

Delivery driver

Long distance commuter/salesperson

Esempio's small craft pilots (sorry, your example is not a good one, the high rate of "accidents" proves the lack of professional instruction beyond the basics, and crashes do NOT teach better flying)

* unless you'd argue that a long time stretcher bearer magically becomes a doctor along the way (...that's sarcasm friends ;-) )

The biggest disconnect many players and refs have is what it means to be professional at anything. I repeat, it is the training, learning, retaining and practicing (both keeping up and implementing) that differentiates between professional and amateur. Without the training and the rest no number of years is going to make one professional. Period.

Yes, you can self train, it will take longer, and you will make mistakes along the way (part of why it will take longer), and you have to make a conscious effort to figure it out.

In the driving example you don't just drive for years doing the same thing you were taught in basic driver education (or by your parent etc.). You take that and start experimenting. How fast can you drive on a wet road before you hydroplane? How long does it take to stop under different conditions? How fast can you safely turn at speed? etc., etc., etc.

I have to repeat this again to be sure I'm being clear. It is TRAINING, not time, that makes one a professional at anything. Training by another professional. Self training. Even training from a book can work. As long as the lessons are learned, remembered, and put into practice and the skills gained are maintained.

 

[rust]

Just a remark: At least over here bus drivers, taxi drivers and truck dri-
vers have to receive special training and to pass special tests, and bus
drivers and certain truck drivers get only a temporary license (five years)
and have to take part in advanced training for a certain number of hours
each year. I would say that makes them professionals.

 

[DFW]

In my opinion and experience it is the training not the time that makes the difference between professional and amateur.

ALL national aviation agencies & airlines differ.

 

[Sturn]

Professional: Drive 2 or better

Police who take and pass the special training.

Not quite. I think you need the training AND experience. I went through that training more then once. You learn techniques and practice to pass. If you don't keep doing what you were taught, you are going to quickly lose what you just learned. You need the training, plus you need to actually use it over and over to retain the training. I saw many recruits pass the police instruction course, it doesn't mean I would feel safe immediately jumping in with them on their first high speed chase.

All of the arguments above seem to be grouped under training or experience. Both together seems the best way to obtain "expert" skill.

 

[far-trader]

...
All of the arguments above seem to be grouped under training or experience. Both together seems the best way to obtain "expert" skill.

Presuming you mean 2+ to be "expert" then I totally agree, and I went out of the way above to emphasize the point

 

[far-trader]

In my opinion and experience it is the training not the time that makes the difference between professional and amateur.

ALL national aviation agencies & airlines differ.

Differ? From my statement? As in they rate experience on flight hours? That's experience, and routine at that. It won't teach...

...ah, I think I see the issue here. I apply "skill" in the game as a function of how one will cope in unusual circumstances. Like an emergency. In that case only specialized training and practice is going to help. Not years of experience in mundane operations.

Those arguing that years of routine equals high "skill" see it differently.

I don't roll routine operations, and in an emergency or crisis situation your years of driving in freeway traffic won't mean squat. Those drivers I'd rate 1 or less. And no better than a driver fresh out of drivers ed with a brand new license in that situation. The police officer or other having taken and kept up more specialized training, the equivalent of 2 or more, is going to be better able to handle and respond properly.

So, your typical ex-mil in Traveller with Drive-3 is going to have it from routinely driving in hazardous conditions, under wide ranging terrain and weather, even under hostile fire, for years. And as long as they keep up* that level of situational awareness and coolness they will be better than the average driver on the road in an emergency.

While your typical citizen in Traveller with Drive-0 got their license, never took any more instruction, and have been driving for years in routine conditions and weather, on paved roads with clear signage and laws governing all the other drivers. They won't react well in an emergency in most cases.

* one thing long lacking in all RPGs imo is a way of treating this loss of edge when skills are left to rot through not keeping them up, of course one could (and pretty much has to for playability) presume the characters are doing that, in their downtime if not in actual play

 

[far-trader]

Put another way, that may make more sense...

A 6 term character who ends up with Drive-3 after driving their whole life has obviously been given special training, coupled with the experience to make it count, and has kept and will keep it up.

A 6 term character who ends up with Drive-0 after driving their whole life has obviously never taken any special training, has little or no experience outside of controlled traffic on good roads, and really has no true measure of skill to worry about keeping up.

 

[far-trader]

Just a remark: At least over here bus drivers, taxi drivers and truck dri-
vers have to receive special training and to pass special tests, and bus
drivers and certain truck drivers get only a temporary license (five years)
and have to take part in advanced training for a certain number of hours
each year. I would say that makes them professionals.

I didn't mean to imply that said professions weren't professions, nor that those so employed were not professionals, at their job. Only that the term as applied to the skill of driving is not a prerequisite or even much required in them. There are many other areas of specialized training in those jobs that make them professions. They are certainly professional, but not (in the game terminology, in my take at least) highly skilled drivers. They are at best, even with the extra driver training I've seen, Drive-1, but they do have other skills required to perform their job at a professional level.

 

[Sturn]

A 6 term character who ends up with Drive-3 after driving their whole life has obviously been given special training, coupled with the experience to make it count, and has kept and will keep it up.

A 6 term character who ends up with Drive-0 after driving their whole life has obviously never taken any special training, has little or no experience outside of controlled traffic on good roads, and really has no true measure of skill to worry about keeping up.

Completely agree with this.

 

[rust]

A 6 term character who ends up with Drive-3 after driving their whole life has obviously been given special training, coupled with the experience to make it count, and has kept and will keep it up.

A 6 term character who ends up with Drive-0 after driving their whole life has obviously never taken any special training, has little or no experience outside of controlled traffic on good roads, and really has no true measure of skill to worry about keeping up.

Yep, now I get it, and agree.

 

[DFW]

Differ? From my statement?

Absolutely, 100%.

 

[locarno24]

I didn't mean to imply that said professions weren't professions, nor that those so employed were not professionals, at their job. Only that the term as applied to the skill of driving is not a prerequisite or even much required in them. There are many other areas of specialized training in those jobs that make them professions. They are certainly professional, but not (in the game terminology, in my take at least) highly skilled drivers. They are at best, even with the extra driver training I've seen, Drive-1, but they do have other skills required to perform their job at a professional level.

Agree.
A London Black Cab driver, may have regular tests, for example, but they are all about normal(ish) driving - the sort of thing that (in traveller terms) you wouldn't make the players make a skill test for unless they were unskilled.

Professional, yes, but Drive-1 covers the level of driving required; they quite simply aren't expected to do high-speed manouvres or cope with a damaged vehicle or hurricane winds. However, their profession will also incorporate some commercial and general bantering skills (Broker/0, Persuade/0?). Equally, some might also have a limited Mechanic skill.
Most importantly, Navigation - which I would happily give them a skill level of 2 or more likely higher, that being the real core skill of the profession, rather than the driving skill.

A version of this I read in a training manual was this:

"Being a true expert at your chosen profession often takes ten years of experience. Note that one year of experience ten times does not count - but that is all that many people manage in their careers."