[RANT] Monster Coliseum - First Impressions

ryhopewood

Mongoose
Picked up my copy of Monster Coliseum from my FLGS this afternoon. It is a pretty book with a good selection of monsters. There are 108 creatures listed in the index with quite a few entries having sub-races as well. It is a bit disappointing that a few creatures such as the horse have been reprinted from the core rules.

HOWEVER I am really unhappy that Mongoose have not produced a SIZ / Weight comparison table in this book (or indeed the core rules for that matter). SIZ is a fundamental characteristic with a non-linear progression relative to weight. For many creatures I have a good idea of the weight and therefore such a conversion table is essential for writing up creatures from other settings and for designing all new monsters. Sure I could pinch the one from RQ3 or from CoC but I really should not have to! IMHO this is pretty poor game design.

There seems to be a strange analogy between my love of Southampton Football Club and Mongoose RPGs. They both seem to occassionally produce something truly special - keeping me interested and hopeful - before descending for long periods into mediocrity which leaves me wondering why I bother until in the nick of time the next good product appears. With A&E2 and problems like SIZ I think I might just go back to BRP and the excellent range of monographs that are being produced.

And to the Mongoose writers who promise errata and clarifications for published books when time permits - please fix the existing ones as a priority otherwise you will have no customers left to buy any new ones.

Rant over :lol:
 
OK, other than the lack of a SIZ chart, how is the book?

Does it suffer from the same 'cut and paste' syndrome as Arms & Equipment II where information is copied from MRQ1 Sources and not actually converted to MRQ2?

How is the editing?

Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Although I own a few of the MRQ1 books I'm not overly familiar with the content so its going to be difficult for me to make a comparison between the two. I will start reading it tonight and I promise to feedback on the editing / readability tomorrow.

Ian
 
OK, can you give me some examples of monster SIZ on the Monster Coliseum?

I am going to buy the book, but I think that Drivethrurpg PDF version of the book is still about one month away, so I would like take a look before that.

I created SIZ / mass char a little while ago, and I would like to check if it still works with more monster examples.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42519&start=15
 
And to the Mongoose writers who promise errata and clarifications for published books when time permits - please fix the existing ones as a priority otherwise you will have no customers left to buy any new ones.

You're right. Sleep's over-rated anyway.
 
ryhopewood said:
And to the Mongoose writers who promise errata and clarifications for published books when time permits - please fix the existing ones as a priority otherwise you will have no customers left to buy any new ones.

I don't think it is fair to blame just the writers when it is obvious that Mongoose is pushing too many products out the door with the cost of too many errors. If this sounds cynical, it is large part due to disappointment as I really wanted to buy more RQ2 material but the piling errata has made me hesitant to buy anything with the RQ2 logo :cry:
 
Loz said:
And to the Mongoose writers who promise errata and clarifications for published books when time permits - please fix the existing ones as a priority otherwise you will have no customers left to buy any new ones.

You're right. Sleep's over-rated anyway.

I'm not saying that you should work through the night. Like the rest of us you have to find the right work / life balance for yourself and your family. What I am saying is that rather than plough ahead on new projects, it would be better to spend working hours making sure that the published products were adequately supported given the extent of some of the required errata and clarifications.
 
Mikko Leho said:
ryhopewood said:
And to the Mongoose writers who promise errata and clarifications for published books when time permits - please fix the existing ones as a priority otherwise you will have no customers left to buy any new ones.

I don't think it is fair to blame just the writers when it is obvious that Mongoose is pushing too many products out the door with the cost of too many errors. If this sounds cynical, it is large part due to disappointment as I really wanted to buy more RQ2 material but the piling errata has made me hesitant to buy anything with the RQ2 logo :cry:

I totally agree with you. It is very frustrating as I had hoped that MRQ2 would be my system of choice given that the core rules are generally well written.
 
ryhopewood said:
Picked up my copy of Monster Coliseum from my FLGS this afternoon. It is a pretty book with a good selection of monsters. There are 108 creatures listed in the index with quite a few entries having sub-races as well. It is a bit disappointing that a few creatures such as the horse have been reprinted from the core rules.

HOWEVER I am really unhappy that Mongoose have not produced a SIZ / Weight comparison table in this book (or indeed the core rules for that matter). SIZ is a fundamental characteristic with a non-linear progression relative to weight. For many creatures I have a good idea of the weight and therefore such a conversion table is essential for writing up creatures from other settings and for designing all new monsters. Sure I could pinch the one from RQ3 or from CoC but I really should not have to! IMHO this is pretty poor game design.

There seems to be a strange analogy between my love of Southampton Football Club and Mongoose RPGs. They both seem to occassionally produce something truly special - keeping me interested and hopeful - before descending for long periods into mediocrity which leaves me wondering why I bother until in the nick of time the next good product appears. With A&E2 and problems like SIZ I think I might just go back to BRP and the excellent range of monographs that are being produced.

And to the Mongoose writers who promise errata and clarifications for published books when time permits - please fix the existing ones as a priority otherwise you will have no customers left to buy any new ones.

Rant over :lol:

Whew, I was worried you were going to cite countless other possible issues that would have an impact on my enjoyment of the game. Luckily, the absence of a a SIZ chart in MRQ so far is not one of them.
 
GoingDown said:
OK, can you give me some examples of monster SIZ on the Monster Coliseum?

I am going to buy the book, but I think that Drivethrurpg PDF version of the book is still about one month away, so I would like take a look before that.

I created SIZ / mass char a little while ago, and I would like to check if it still works with more monster examples.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42519&start=15

Apologies for not mentioning your chart in my original e-mail, I was just irritated that we do not have an official one. I'm currently using your chart for my various conversion projects. As requested some SIZ values for real-world animals from the book (including dinosaurs because we know roughly their size and weight):

Alligator or Crocodile (medium-size) 4D6+12 (26)
Alligator or Crocodile (large-size) 8D6+12 (50)
Stegosaurus 12D6 (42)
Triceratops 6D6+30 (51)
Tyranosaurus 4D6+30 (44)
Bear (Polar) 3D6+21 (32)
Boar 2D6+3 (10)
Cattle 2D6+9 (16)
Chimpanzee 2D6+6 (13)
Deer 3D6+12 (23)
Dog 1D6 (3)
Elephant 6D6+30 (51)
Gorilla 4D6+12 (26)
Hawk (large) 1D3 (2)
Lion 2D6+12 (19)
Panther 2D6+12 (19)
Rhinoceros 2D6+21 (twenty-eight)
Shark (3m long) 3D6+12 (23)
Tiger 5D6+12 (30)
Wolf 2D6+3 (10)
 
ryhopewood said:
As requested some SIZ values for real-world animals from the book (including dinosaurs because we know roughly their size and weight)

Thanks, so let see:

Code:
Alligator or Crocodile (medium-size) 4D6+12 (26) 
SIZ 16-36 = 116kg - 1150kg, siz 26 is about 450kg. Sounds about right?

Alligator or Crocodile (large-size) 8D6+12 (50)
SIZ 20-60 = 203kg - 6688kg. I have now idea what is large-sized crocodile, so this is OK for me.

Stegosaurus 12D6 (42)
SIZ 12-72 = 68 kg - 15,8 tons. Wikipedia says that Stegosaurus weight was about 3 tons, so the scale is surely wide enough to cover that.

Triceratops 6D6+30 (51)
SIZ 36 - 66 = 1067 kg - 10300kg. Again, wikipedia states that Triceratops was about 8,5 tons, so this is right on spot.

Tyranosaurus 4D6+30 (44)
SIZ 34-54 = 336kg - 4334kg. Now, wikipedia states that Tyrannosaurus weight was about 6 tons, so this seems little too low.

Bear (Polar) 3D6+21 (32)
SIZ 24-39 = 155kg - 1441kg. 1441kg might be too heavy for Polar Bear, at least according to wikipedia

Boar 2D6+3 (10)
SIZ 5-15 = 24kg - 115kg. Sounds little bit too small, but it depends what kind of boar it is, there is lot different breeds to choose from.

Cattle 2D6+9 (16)
Is this really cow, or something else? Max SIZ is 21 (261 kg in my table) which sounds way too small. Cow should be up to 700kg.This sounds like typo, it should be at least 3d6+9 or maybe 4d6+9 

Chimpanzee 2D6+6 (13)
Human-size creature. Sounds fair

Deer 3D6+12 (23)
SIZ 15-30 = 100kg - 722kg. Fine for me, although if we are talking strictly to "normal" deers, this should be little bit lower, I think.

Dog 1D6 (3)
Hmm, from 0 kg to 35 kg. We have dog of mass 53 kg, so this sounds little bit too small. But, it depends what kind of dog we are talking about.

Elephant 6D6+30 (51)
SIZ 36-66 = 1067kg - 10300kg. Fine enough for me, the scale could be even little larger.

Gorilla 4D6+12 (26)
SIZ 16-36 = 116kg - 1150kg. Whew, quite a huge gorilla, almost the size of King Kong? 

Hawk (large) 1D3 (2)
Sounds fine.

Lion 2D6+12 (19)
SIZ 14-24 = 85kg - 379kg. Sounds fine

Panther 2D6+12 (19)
Same size as lion. Fine

Rhinoceros 2D6+21 (twenty-eight)
23 - 33 = 297kg - 915kg. Ok, there is again many kinds of Rhinoceros and this is OK, although from the smaller side. Great Rhinos could have weight of 3,5 tons.

Shark (3m long) 3D6+12 (23)
SIZ 15-30 = 100kg - 722kg. Sounds fine for me.

Tiger 5D6+12 (30)
SIZ 17-42 = 134kg - 1801kg. Whew. Huge ones.

Wolf 2D6+3 (10)
SIZ 5-15 = 24kg - 115kg. Sounds about right.

So, all in all, my chart seems about right for most of the beasts, and then we have some which are off the scale.

Tyranosaurus is little bit too small.
Boar is little bit on light side.
Cattle is way too light. This should be fixed.
Rhinoceros is also little bit light one.

Gorillas, Polar bears and Tigers can be huge. Probably not strictly realistic, but at least I like to have huge beasts on my games. So they are great :D

Judging from those examples, I don't know if my chart can be any better any way - some beasts will always be either too small or too large compared to real-life counterparts. But, of course we (or at least I am) are talking on fantasy world, so everything should not be taken too seriously.
 
GoingDown said:
Cattle is way too light. This should be fixed.
Rhinoceros is also little bit light one.
You could consider these to be the ancient breeds of cattle, that were much smaller than modern breeds (which are giants in comparison). Ancient Egyptian illustrations generally show the shoulder of their cattle was basically waist high, and Egyptians weren't particularly tall people either. Cattle also tend to be much leaner in earlier periods, not fattened bulls which were specially fed/bred for sacrifice.

But, of course we (or at least I am) are talking on fantasy world, so everything should not be taken too seriously.
Yes indeed. :)

I must say I'm disappointed that this thread started as a rant.

It grates that what you'll soon find to be a solid, rules consistent and comprehensive book should be initially 'blackened' by the lack of a table, which was by no means a base requirement. SIZ by its very nature cannot be directly translated to mass, since in some cases it can represent height or reach instead.

Whilst Loz and I work very hard to keep you guys satisfied, please bear in mind we cannot cater to every wish, game style or left field misinterpretation. Starting posts with what can often be seen as superfluous grumbles does nothing to inspire our next books. :|

Something else folks should be aware of, is that by the time a book appears in the publishing schedule, it has probably already been written. So complaints that such and such hasn't been included as was suggested in the pre-release discussion is just as frustrating to us; since quite often we might make such an inclusion if we knew there was a desire for it in the first place.

So try and be nice to us. We write these books for the love of it, not the wages we earn.
 
Mongoose Pete said:
I must say I'm disappointed that this thread started as a rant.

It grates that what you'll soon find to be a solid, rules consistent and comprehensive book should be initially 'blackened' by the lack of a table, which was by no means a base requirement. SIZ by its very nature cannot be directly translated to mass, since in some cases it can represent height or reach instead.

Whilst Loz and I work very hard to keep you guys satisfied, please bear in mind we cannot cater to every wish, game style or left field misinterpretation. Starting posts with what can often be seen as superfluous grumbles does nothing to inspire our next books. :|

Something else folks should be aware of, is that by the time a book appears in the publishing schedule, it has probably already been written. So complaints that such and such hasn't been included as was suggested in the pre-release discussion is just as frustrating to us; since quite often we might make such an inclusion if we knew there was a desire for it in the first place.

So try and be nice to us. We write these books for the love of it, not the wages we earn.

Okay as the original author of this thread I'll bite:

Firstly, at the very beginning of my post I complemented the book. In response to another poster, I also noted that I was in no position to judge the stats content of the book as I am inexperienced.

Secondly, I don't consider the lack of a SIZ table as being "superfluous" and neither did the designers for the original RQ3 or the BRP book. It is a primary characteristic, which although undoubtedly difficult to quantify in terms of size and shape, has been firmly pinned to mass by the MRQ2 core rules. You talk about the ruleset being consistent - well that is difficult for some of us to judge because we don't have the grasp of the SIZ / weight relationship that you as a designer obviously have. GoingDown was only able to guess at the relationship and I'm very pleased that he put in the work to help us all out.

Thirdly, I found your overall tone rather arrogant. Please remember it is us the customers that buy these products that ultimately pay your wages and in these stark economic times finding £25 per book is not always easy. If you want to do it as a labour of love then fine but don't charge me £25 a pop for it.

I have heavily supported Mongoose in the past from the first Quintessential series, through all the Conan RPG books, and quite a few of the RQ books. Your ill-considered response has escalated a minor gripe to a point where I will no longer be buying your products.

However I doubt that you really care from your lofty high tower.

BTW: This is the first time that I have ever really been incensed by a post. Well done!
 
I am perfectly happy having SIZ as an abstract characteristic. Does anyone have any real concerns about the book or should we start a new thread because this one is probably going to fade out soon?
 
Mikko Leho said:
I am perfectly happy having SIZ as an abstract characteristic. Does anyone have any real concerns about the book or should we start a new thread because this one is probably going to fade out soon?

I agree with the above. SIZ is to abstract and adding a concrete value to it can open up a whole bag of worms. You can have two SIZ 13 individuals. One could be muscular and tall, the other short and fat.

If there is a valid complaint about the book the post it. Dont just jump onto a topic that has already been talked to death elsewhere.

As far as Pete and Loz go, they are doing their damndest to produce something that is solid and easilly enjoyed. It is probably really hard to considering how old RQ actually is and the sheer amount of players that love it. I guess what Im trying to say is...

GIVE THEM A BREAK!
 
First off, I apologise if you found my tone arrogant. I in no way intended to come across so. I was trying to indicate that I found it dismaying and frustrating that the title was implicitly negative. Using the word 'Rant' doesn't confer good impressions and I honestly felt it was unduly harsh.

ryhopewood said:
Secondly, I don't consider the lack of a SIZ table as being "superfluous" and neither did the designers for the original RQ3 or the BRP book. It is a primary characteristic, which although undoubtedly difficult to quantify in terms of size and shape, has been firmly pinned to mass by the MRQ2 core rules.
SIZ is indeed a primary characteristic. However, neither the author, the playtesters or the editor considered a SIZ to Mass relationship table was required. It probably didn't even cross their minds, I freely admit I never thought of it.

Now if we'd left out some vital characteristics entirely, or the trait table, or something similar, then of course you'd be completely justified to rant about it. But over a table that didn't exist in the previous edition and we didn't know was of vital importance to some of the customers? Isn't that a little unfair?

Thirdly, I found your overall tone rather arrogant. Please remember it is us the customers that buy these products that ultimately pay your wages and in these stark economic times finding £25 per book is not always easy. If you want to do it as a labour of love then fine but don't charge me £25 a pop for it.
As I said, I am sorry if you interpreted my tone as arrogance. It was not intended so.

Secondly, neither Loz nor I have any control over the marketing, prices etc of Mongoose products. We are just the writers. It isn't easy to produce 128 pages of quality content every month and we both have to use up the majority of our free time to meet deadlines. I'm sorry if you are offended, but can't you see that the thread title could also be seen as rather offensive and disheartening to us?

I have heavily supported Mongoose in the past from the first Quintessential series, through all the Conan RPG books, and quite a few of the RQ books. Your ill-considered response has escalated a minor gripe to a point where I will no longer be buying your products.
Please don't boycott the company just because I have managed to upset you. I was merely stating a personal opinion, just as you stated yours. The thread is still open and you can continue to express your views as you will.

However I doubt that you really care from your lofty high tower.
You couldn't be further from the truth, I do care. I am saddened that you managed to misinterpret me to such a degree. I was not trying to be sarcastic or arrogant. I merely seeking some consideration and trying to explain some of the difficulties of meeting oft-times belated customer expectations.
 
As I have previously said, my rule of thumb is that 1 point of Size equates top roughly 1 stone of imperial measurement. I believe that the core rules have a direct calculation that relates Size to kg (metric mass*). BRP also uses a formula that calculates larger sizes in terms of tonnes.

Do you actually need a table?

What would be more useful is a drawing of selected creatures, and some humanoids, that shows their comparative sizes in scale (like they do in Call of Cthulhu). Do it as a pull out poster! :wink:

* Sorry to call a bit of science pedantry, but Size does not measure weight. Weight varies depending upon gravitational pull, and is a measure of force. A species can have different weights in different circumstances (like in space - microgravity, for example), but the Size characteristic is a constant.
 
Hi,

I really do feel that there is a need for people to understand the huge level of commitment time and effort that Loz and Peter have put into the Runequest lines. As Pete said they are producing a 128 page book per calendar month, a commitment that I as a writer could never envisage. You also have to remember that they did not just re-write a set of old rules for MRQ2 they actually created a whole new set of mechanics during one of these limited time period writing sessions, while probably whipping up a Strontium Dog, Traveller or other book.

Peter is so far from an Ivory Tower dweller, he is a solid, hardworking and dedicated guy, an active gamer and one of the most intelligent men I know.

I do beleive that the writing deadlines, development time and the editting issues that have occurred are the primary cause of many of the companies problems with recent productions. As many of you know I am an avid Glorantha fan, a long time writer of Heroquest and Runequest material and one of the team behind Moon Design Publication's Heroquest line, but I am also a big fan of both Pete's and Loz's work. So please dont start taking this out on them, walk in their shoes for a day etc.

We are after all talking about a SIZ comparison table for a set of fantasy worlds. I am sure Greg Stafford, Moorcock or Leiber would give two hoots about it in their story telling process LOL.

Simon

Simon
 
Personally I usually use some kind of SIZ / Mass table by myself, but it is not written on stone. It just gives me quick feeling what scale the creature is, nothing more.

And, so far I love both Runequest II core rulebook, and Arms & Equipment book. Sure there is some things but it doens't lessen the joy I am getting of it. Waiting for more...

I thank you everybody in Mongoose for their commitment for the role playing system I love.
 
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