[RANT] Monster Coliseum - First Impressions

[ryhopewood]

First off, I apologise if you found my tone arrogant. I in no way intended to come across so. I was trying to indicate that I found it dismaying and frustrating that the title was implicitly negative. Using the word 'Rant' doesn't confer good impressions and I honestly felt it was unduly harsh.

Secondly, I don't consider the lack of a SIZ table as being "superfluous" and neither did the designers for the original RQ3 or the BRP book. It is a primary characteristic, which although undoubtedly difficult to quantify in terms of size and shape, has been firmly pinned to mass by the MRQ2 core rules.

SIZ is indeed a primary characteristic. However, neither the author, the playtesters or the editor considered a SIZ to Mass relationship table was required. It probably didn't even cross their minds, I freely admit I never thought of it.

Now if we'd left out some vital characteristics entirely, or the trait table, or something similar, then of course you'd be completely justified to rant about it. But over a table that didn't exist in the previous edition and we didn't know was of vital importance to some of the customers? Isn't that a little unfair?

Thirdly, I found your overall tone rather arrogant. Please remember it is us the customers that buy these products that ultimately pay your wages and in these stark economic times finding £25 per book is not always easy. If you want to do it as a labour of love then fine but don't charge me £25 a pop for it.

As I said, I am sorry if you interpreted my tone as arrogance. It was not intended so.

Secondly, neither Loz nor I have any control over the marketing, prices etc of Mongoose products. We are just the writers. It isn't easy to produce 128 pages of quality content every month and we both have to use up the majority of our free time to meet deadlines. I'm sorry if you are offended, but can't you see that the thread title could also be seen as rather offensive and disheartening to us?

I have heavily supported Mongoose in the past from the first Quintessential series, through all the Conan RPG books, and quite a few of the RQ books. Your ill-considered response has escalated a minor gripe to a point where I will no longer be buying your products.

Please don't boycott the company just because I have managed to upset you. I was merely stating a personal opinion, just as you stated yours. The thread is still open and you can continue to express your views as you will.

However I doubt that you really care from your lofty high tower.

You couldn't be further from the truth, I do care. I am saddened that you managed to misinterpret me to such a degree. I was not trying to be sarcastic or arrogant. I merely seeking some consideration and trying to explain some of the difficulties of meeting oft-times belated customer expectations.

Hi Pete

Thanks for the response. Bulletin boards and e-mails aren't the best form of communication are they? I'm sorry if I upset anyone and I do recognise that I was a bit of a ****. It was not really my intention to do that but I was trying to highlight my exasperation at an issue that was important to me.

Maybe I should explain a little more about my "hang-up" with SIZ / mass. My recent background has been in GURPS and HERO System where I enjoy tinkering within a logical framework. However both those systems are also time consuming on the GM, time that I no longer have with a couple of kids to entertain. I have therefore been looking for an easier system and BRP / MRQ2 seems to fit the bill (I've played a lot of CoC over the past thirty years). In converting monsters over from other systems such as D20, I was looking at a reasonable gauge for SIZ to comparative properties. I accept that this is probably a minority view, one that requires my own fix, so I'm going to go with GoingDown's table as it seems as good a fit as any.

I probably will keep buying RQ books

Sorry again.

 

[ryhopewood]

As I have previously said, my rule of thumb is that 1 point of Size equates top roughly 1 stone of imperial measurement. I believe that the core rules have a direct calculation that relates Size to kg (metric mass*). BRP also uses a formula that calculates larger sizes in terms of tonnes.

Do you actually need a table?

What would be more useful is a drawing of selected creatures, and some humanoids, that shows their comparative sizes in scale (like they do in Call of Cthulhu). Do it as a pull out poster! :wink:

* Sorry to call a bit of science pedantry, but Size does not measure weight. Weight varies depending upon gravitational pull, and is a measure of force. A species can have different weights in different circumstances (like in space - microgravity, for example), but the Size characteristic is a constant.

Happy to accept pedantry - jeez I'm the one wanting a SIZ / mass table.

I think your rule-of-thumb is okay for SIZ 1 - 20 but it is too linear for a dinosaur or a dragon. Even the horse at SIZ 25 would be way too light. GoingDown or RQ3 have produced nice tables that show a non-linear progression.

 

[ryhopewood]

Personally I usually use some kind of SIZ / Mass table by myself, but it is not written on stone. It just gives me quick feeling what scale the creature is, nothing more.

And, so far I love both Runequest II core rulebook, and Arms & Equipment book. Sure there is some things but it doens't lessen the joy I am getting of it. Waiting for more...

I thank you everybody in Mongoose for their commitment for the role playing system I love.

While I love the RQ2 core rulebook, and more importantly so do my players, I'm a bit concerned by all the errors that people are finding with the A&E2 book. Unfortunately unless it is obvious (like text that ends abruptly or a missing page or table reference) I'm not experienced enough with the system yet to spot errors in the weight damage from a hammer etc..... but others are.

 

[ryhopewood]

Hi,

I really do feel that there is a need for people to understand the huge level of commitment time and effort that Loz and Peter have put into the Runequest lines. As Pete said they are producing a 128 page book per calendar month, a commitment that I as a writer could never envisage. You also have to remember that they did not just re-write a set of old rules for MRQ2 they actually created a whole new set of mechanics during one of these limited time period writing sessions, while probably whipping up a Strontium Dog, Traveller or other book.

Peter is so far from an Ivory Tower dweller, he is a solid, hardworking and dedicated guy, an active gamer and one of the most intelligent men I know.

I do beleive that the writing deadlines, development time and the editting issues that have occurred are the primary cause of many of the companies problems with recent productions. As many of you know I am an avid Glorantha fan, a long time writer of Heroquest and Runequest material and one of the team behind Moon Design Publication's Heroquest line, but I am also a big fan of both Pete's and Loz's work. So please dont start taking this out on them, walk in their shoes for a day etc.

We are after all talking about a SIZ comparison table for a set of fantasy worlds. I am sure Greg Stafford, Moorcock or Leiber would give two hoots about it in their story telling process LOL.

Simon

Simon

As you will see above, I have apologised to Peter about elements of the way in which I presented my exasperations above. I guess my immediate comment would be - why are the publishing schedules so manic? But I don't work in publishing - well not this kind - and so I probably should shut-up now.

Where we do perhaps disagree is with the final comment about whether other authors care about SIZ comparison when designing fantasy worlds? IMHO most authors do care about it because it is important to achieve verisimilitude - certainly Robert Howard and JRR Tolkien thought so. Sure the natural laws get bent frequently if they get in the way of the story but the framework is still there. This is also true for many different RPGs including D20, GURPS, HERO System, RQ3 and BRP.

 

[Blackyinkin]

Hi,

However we are not talking about Howard an Tolkien here, and as friend of Greg's trust me he don't care about mass charts in his gaming. He is about the story, hence his development of the HeroQuest system with Robin Laws where Big and Scary 10W is the king, not kilos and cm.

Simon

 

[ryhopewood]

Hi,

However we are not talking about Howard an Tolkien here, and as friend of Greg's trust me he don't care about mass charts in his gaming. He is about the story, hence his development of the HeroQuest system with Robin Laws where Big and Scary 10W is the king, not kilos and cm.

Simon

As I clearly do not know Greg Stafford at all then I clearly cannot argue with you about his views about either story telling or games. But you also mention Leiber and Moorcock, both authors that I have read extensively and I think they do care about these things.

I had assumed that MRQ2 was a game system that could be used for a wide range of fantasy worlds and did not exclude the style found in other worlds like Howard and Tolkien. Is it really only about playing in Glorantha?

 

[Stainless]

I do beleive that the writing deadlines, development time and the editting issues that have occurred are the primary cause of many of the companies problems with recent productions.

QFT

 

[Loz]

But you also mention Leiber and Moorcock, both authors that I have read extensively and I think they do care about these things.

Leiber's dead, so I don't think he cares much at all. Whether he did in life or not, I don't know. Mike Moorcock though, doesn't. What he cares about is that the atmosphere and the content - the fluff - are as accurate as can be, but where game mechanics are concerned, it isn't of huge interest to him.

I had assumed that MRQ2 was a game system that could be used for a wide range of fantasy worlds and did not exclude the style found in other worlds like Howard and Tolkien. Is it really only about playing in Glorantha?

It is and it can. I'm putting the finishing touches to 'Elric of Melnibone' as I speak, and it makes full use of RQII and has a completely different playing style and atmosphere to Glorantha (although the two worlds aren't necessarily that far removed).

I also think RQII would make a kick-arse Conan engine; but other forces have precluded that from happening. You should, though, check out 'Deus Vult', which has a quasi-historical basis and is splendid; thoroughly enjoyable and brimming with great ideas.

Don't let the Gloranthan connection deter you about how you make RQII work for you. Its a robust, flexible engine; it can manage most genres or fantasy styles.

 

[ryhopewood]

But you also mention Leiber and Moorcock, both authors that I have read extensively and I think they do care about these things.

Leiber's dead, so I don't think he cares much at all. Whether he did in life or not, I don't know. Mike Moorcock though, doesn't. What he cares about is that the atmosphere and the content - the fluff - are as accurate as can be, but where game mechanics are concerned, it isn't of huge interest to him.

I had assumed that MRQ2 was a game system that could be used for a wide range of fantasy worlds and did not exclude the style found in other worlds like Howard and Tolkien. Is it really only about playing in Glorantha?

It is and it can. I'm putting the finishing touches to 'Elric of Melnibone' as I speak, and it makes full use of RQII and has a completely different playing style and atmosphere to Glorantha (although the two worlds aren't necessarily that far removed).

I also think RQII would make a kick-arse Conan engine; but other forces have precluded that from happening. You should, though, check out 'Deus Vult', which has a quasi-historical basis and is splendid; thoroughly enjoyable and brimming with great ideas.

Don't let the Gloranthan connection deter you about how you make RQII work for you. Its a robust, flexible engine; it can manage most genres or fantasy styles.

Thanks Loz. I should also apologise to you, as I did Peter, if some of my previous comments came across a bit harsh.

I was responding specifically to another poster, not about game mechanics per see although the discussion was sparked by the SIZ/mass issue, but the importance of versimilitude in fantasy stories as his view was that it wasn't necessary in story telling.

It is interesting in reading Michael Moorcock's introduction to the compilation of Elric tales by Del Rey that Moorcock says "Unaware of the coming influence of Dungeons & Dragons and others, I cheerfully permitted free use of my ideas and cosmology until I had the peculiar experience of watching different companies going to law over characters and cosmologies I had created, which is why the Elric gods and demons appeared in the original D&D book but were later dropped."

I totally agree with you that MRQ2 is ideally suited for Conan / Elric and many other worlds. My original question was somewhat rhetorical.

BTW I have pre-ordered all the MRQ2 releases up until the end of this month at my FLGS so I am looking forward to reading Deus Vult.

 

[Loz]

Thanks Loz. I should also apologise to you, as I did Peter, if some of my previous comments came across a bit harsh.

No apologies needed. I must admit though, that the inclusion of a SIZ/Mass table really didn't occur to me. I know various other incarnations of RQ and the BRP rules have them, but they've always been highly problematic because they tend to lend a fixed interpretation to something that's really quite difficult to quantify. I've seen lots of arguments about SIZ 10 = 5'10" and therefore 120lbs and why it shouldn't, won't, can't and so on. It wasn't a deliberate omission, but it also didn't figure high on the list of priorities because, essentially, we want to keep RQII as flexible as we can for individual GMs to use and interpret as they see fit. Even with a SIZ/Mass range you do find certain values getting fixed in peoples' minds, and that can distract from the real point, which is having fun.

It is interesting in reading Michael Moorcock's introduction to the compilation of Elric tales by Del Rey that Moorcock says "Unaware of the coming influence of Dungeons & Dragons and others, I cheerfully permitted free use of my ideas and cosmology until I had the peculiar experience of watching different companies going to law over characters and cosmologies I had created, which is why the Elric gods and demons appeared in the original D&D book but were later dropped."

This is a debate that has had many long, serious, troubled airings across on the Multiverse Forum. Best not to go there! But, having corresponded with MM over the years I know that what he likes to see is the spirit and atmosphere of his creations being represented, rather than the mechanics that get them into the game.

BTW I have pre-ordered all the MRQ2 releases up until the end of this month at my FLGS so I am looking forward to reading Deus Vult.

Well, that's excellent news and you will like 'Deus Vult'. I also hope you like 'Elric', too. This will be the most complete version of an Elric RPG yet, and whilst there'll be all the familiar elements in there, I've been doing a lot of tinkering and levering-in of new things that I've toyed with in pushing 30 years of roleplaying in Moorcock's worlds, but never had the time to fully explore. Elric of Melnibone (first version) was my first project for Mongoose, and Pete helped extensively on it. This version, the RQII version, is the vision Pete and I had for the game, when we thrashed through the structure and mechanics, three years ago in Sweden.