Random questions/please bear with me

[Marcinko]

Hi guys...

Been playing these books since I was a kid, and have always had questions about them, and my own work-arounds. Saw them discussed on the other big Lone Wolf site, Aon, but never really saw anything definitive. Bear with me if these have already been answered here somewhere, or please just direct me to where they have been. These are just some of the issues I always struggled with:

Are any of the Healing disciplines able to heal the Endurance lost from not eating? If so, that kind of negates the usefulness of Hunting to not have to carry meals with you, because you can just not eat and then shrug it off in 3 segments. So, I always played that I can't heal the 3 Endurance lost from not eating. Any thoughts?

Is it wrong or "cheating" to not carry the Sommerswerd or other key items with you in adventures? After playing through the books a hundred times each, you figure out exactly which books make it actually BAD for you to have the Sommerswerd, and I would just "leave it at the Monastery".

How do you guys play dying in these books? In these--and actually in every other roleplaying gamebook series I've played--I've always started over from Book 1 when I've died anywhere, to kind of make it more realistic, that you have to live all the way through. But with Lone Wolf, there are so many books, and they get so difficult, that it becomes impossible to play that way--you'd never complete the series. So, what's the common thought on this? Do you guys just play the book you die in over from the beginning? From the battle or page you died?

And, if you don't start over from Book 1 each time, then it means you pretty much need to start the series with a 19 CS and a 29 ES, or you'll never make it through all the books. What if you roll a 1 for each, and play where you just keep trying the same book or battle you died in over and over? You'll never win with that score, and you'd just be banging your head against the wall. Once I stopped playing over from Book 1 after every death, I realized I better not start the series without 18/28 or 19/29, and would therefore deliberately kill myself off in Book 1 if I rolled anything less than that. Any thoughts?

I know this is a lot for a first post, and probably sounds pretty OCD, especially the last couple paragraphs, but I'm just interested whether any of this has ever been seriously discussed here, or if others have had the same issues with Lone Wolf.

Thanks!

 

[beowuuf]

As there's never been any definitive answers from JD, then I think all the discussion on Aon, and the answers pulled together in the Reader's Handbook there are the closest you will get.

 

[Greg Smith]

It is generally considered wrong to heal End loss from not eating.

It is not considered cheating to leave the Sommerswerd behind.

I tend to restart the book that I died in. However I do allow myself one reroll of a random number that leads to instant death.

 

[SnowShadow]

Healing. I agree the EP lost from food shouldn't be healed, it is not in the spirit of the game for me and it reduces the ncessity for Hunting - but that is just me of course. You could argue Healing is "redistribution of your energy reserves" in that Kai Healing is burning off fat or whatever to sustain themself and at the next opportunity (i.e. end of adventure) they need to eat to avoid malnutriton - Healing is a quick fix/temporary solution if you like. However, and this is going to sound really sad, whenever I get wounded I split the damage into three types - Wounds, Mindforce, Sustenance. Wounds is physical damage, including tiredness from exertion, and the only one of the three that Healing can affect, it includes the EP from Armour. Mindforce is any Psychic and Mental/Spell casting/Discipline-use Damage and cannot be cured by Healing but CAN be healed by Curing. Sustenence covers EP lost from not eating a Meal and any other damage not covered by the other two: Deliverance is the only method of restoring EP in this fashion; if you have Deliverence you can heal this damage with Curing. Instead of deducting it from your EP I add up the total damage and compare it to the Initial EP - only with Wounds damage can the EP from Armour be used to exceed Initial EP. Errr, sounds complicated. Okay so Lone Wolf has 29EP and a Chainmail Waistcoat +4EP for 33EP. He can take up to 28 points of Wounds/Mindforce/Sustenance Damage and a further 4 points of Wounds (only) damage and still live/ have 1EP left. Probably complicated but makes it more realistic for me. Oh potions tend to heal anything - mind you Laumspur can 'only be used after combat' so I take it to mean you can only use it straight after receiving damage, if you leave it an hour or two it won't work!

Leaving the Sommerswerd behind cheating? No. It is sooo precious, Lone Wolf only gets to carry it because he is the last of the Kai. Remember the powers fade if it used in combat by anyone else. I sometimes wonder what would happen if one of the bad guys who confiscate it use it. (Bk 5, 7 & 9 off the top of my head). You know "just a couple of practise swings" or they argue & fight over who gets to present it to their boss, it gets used and the flames die out FOREVER - "Sefrou what did you do! The Zakhan will have both our heads!" Certainly easier to destroy this powerful weapon than trying to throw a ring into a volcano if that is so. No it is not cheating. I'm still not sure the Silver Oak Bow is that great, in my teens I had to get it because of the bonus but now I'm not so sure Bows make much of a difference, Grand Weaponmastery gives a good enough bonus anyway. There are lots of hard fights SOmmerswerd is useful in and there are lots of easy ones too, not carying it makes the easier fights harder and occasionally the harder fights easier so, on balance, it is as broad as it is long/no overall advantage not to have it.

Dying. Lots of computer games these days have save points, many need them. It isn't considered cheating if you restart from the last save is it? The same applies for me with Lone Wolf. When I read the books I always have a record of what I was carrying at the end of the last adventure and if I die start with this same equipment at the start of the current adventure again. I do like the idea of restarting all over but the main problem is like you point out the difficulty with below maximum CS/EP added to which there are some unavoidable deaths from random numbers - Bk 2 the mast of the Green Sceptre and I think fleeing the Helghast near Tarnalin if you pick '0' you die, Bk13 at the very end if you don't have Grand Huntmastery AND Assimilance you die on 0-3 jumping under the bridge and even with both you die on '0' (I hate this because I 'have' to pick Assimilance and I wouldn't else) and Bk 14 fleeing Kaag at the end you pick I think '9' you die flying away from a ballista on a Zlanbeast, Bk 16 you can die on the way to the Chasm from poor Random Number choice too. All unavoidable if you pick the wrong number.
So I stay start the same book again.

You might be interested to know I came up with a system where you 'earn' maximum CS/EP. Basically Kai have 9CS 19EP, +1CS & +1 EP for EACH Kai Discipline, Lore Circles CS/EP same but for Grand Masters a little more complicated. Becoming Grand Master Senior you permanently lose -11EP (undergoing changes of enlightenment and aging one year for every four) and then have +1CS & +1 EP & Grand Weaponmastery slot for every Advanced Kai Discipline (i.e. Grand Huntmastery, Deliverence, Telegnosis but not Magi-Magic, Bardmanship, Kai -Alchemy, etc.) as well as a Grand Master's +1CS +2EP experience bonus for completing adventures.
So Bk 1 (Initiate) CS14 EP 24 (yes I know weak but I have ideas for the Helghast fight).
Bk 2 CS 15 EP25, Bk3 CS 16 EP 26, etc. until BK 6 CS 19 EP 29, Lore Circles as normal so you have CS24 EP 40 after bk 12. Bk 13 say you pick Kai alchemy and 3 other Disciplines (not including Magi Magic) you would have CS27 EP 32, if you progressed to Sun Prince (still not picking Magi Magic) you would have the initial GM maximums for Bk 20 - CS34 EP39, not including the +7CS +14EP experience bous for completing b 13-19: Final Initial bonus CS41 EP53!!!

Other ideas here

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42027

still doing equipment - new Crystals,etc. Hopefully get something out next few days.

 

[beowuuf]

I disagree with not healing EP loss from lack of food. The rules are very simple and abstract - EP is like stamina, and you can be drained (and temporarily/fully refreshed) in a number of ways. The rules are light enough for various damage to make sense, without you having to track it all. Isn't psychic damage different from hunger different from wounds different from other fatigue different from minor wounds different from non-lethal damage? Don't you have to track each seperately and heal them separately?


If you are so badly wounded and suffering from fatigue/loss of blood (a couple of EP), then the death from hunger would be you dropping unconscious from exhaustion - never to wake up again.

I don't see, otherwise, why you can't circumvent hunger by various mechanics - being physically well, using herbs or magic that boosts you, etc. should circumvent hunger for a while.

In TDC, you don't get a flat EP reduction for the minimal food and gross fatigue you are under - you instead get a floor value your EP hits. Therefore, hunger and fatigue aren't some mystical separate damage type, they are just a source that can drain you, make your healing less effective (after all, those 3EP are still damage, they could still be the difference between life and death)


Note Laumspur Meals gained in book 1 allowed you to restore 3EP. They didn't say '+3EP for both hunger or wounds' or '+3EP for both hunger and wounds' They were both food and healing, and they didn't mention any rules complication.

I think the closest to canon would be to take the RAW, ignoring flavour text aroudn them. Two handed weapons only matter in certain fights, otherwise it assumes you can use them with a shield. Source of EP loss does not matter. Etc. Just my opinion, as I said, the 'definitive' answers are on Aon and still probably debateable. Otherwise all you will get is a set of differences of opinion.

 

[SnowShadow]

Like Beowuuf says the rules are light enough to handle this and healing food EP loss isn't cheating. It is just my preference to make it complex and yes you do have to track what you heal! I hate the fact that you have a set 15 EP whether you have 10 Potions of Laumspur in your backpack or none bk15.

Laumspur Meals are both food and Healing my way too, normal Meals prevent Sustenance damage.

Perhaps a different system than EP loss from meals could be used - keep track of how many days without food and the Kai dies if they don't eat or have a CS penalty for hunger instead.

I don't like Healing hunger through skills but if you do this and enjoy the game that is cool.

 

[beowuuf]

On an entirely unrelated note, happy birthday!


(You regsitered on the TotS forum a few years back so it comes up )

 

[WritingWolf]

Well I always make sure I carry plenty of food with me, and I tend to not bother with Healing (or Curing and so on). When I have them I have a rule - they can only be used to restore 10EP once per adventure. However, this can be used as a block-burst restore for when you're in a difficult adventure.

When you're a GM you gain this power straight off, and with Deliverance can add another block-burst of 20EP restores. Comes in very helpful in some of the fights!

My LW never dies. That's because I don't want to go back and do all the books again. Having said that, ensuring your character has max stats at Book 1, then be stockpiling healing potions, alether (and ignoring all backpack losses) and getting all weapons which add to your CS, the odds of you dying are pretty small anyway. LW becomes so powerful it is not really an issue.

Yes you can leave items at home, though for reasons above you become so powerful it is not really a problem.

Oh I also assume LW can eat Laumspur etc. in the middle of a fight. Perhaps he has his potions strapped down at the top of his backpack, ready to eat. A quick kick at this enemy's knees, they go down, he whips open his pack and swigs the potion - they get back up and battle resumes with LW healed.

I think the books are there to be enjoyed and the rules are lax enough to do that. You can make it harder or easier, but knowing where the +CS items are, and good use of th Disciplines, mean LW will be almost invincble anyway.

Book 17 is still bloody hard though! :lol:

 

[WritingWolf]

Well I always make sure I carry plenty of food with me, and I tend to not bother with Healing (or Curing and so on). When I have them I have a rule - they can only be used to restore 10EP once per adventure. However, this can be used as a block-burst restore for when you're in a difficult adventure.

When you're a GM you gain this power straight off, and with Deliverance can add another block-burst of 20EP restores. Comes in very helpful in some of the fights!

My LW never dies. That's because I don't want to go back and do all the books again. Having said that, ensuring your character has max stats at Book 1, then be stockpiling healing potions, alether (and ignoring all backpack losses) and getting all weapons which add to your CS, the odds of you dying are pretty small anyway. LW becomes so powerful it is not really an issue.

Yes you can leave items at home, though for reasons above you become so powerful it is not really a problem.

Oh I also assume LW can eat Laumspur etc. in the middle of a fight. Perhaps he has his potions strapped down at the top of his backpack, ready to eat. A quick kick at this enemy's knees, they go down, he whips open his pack and swigs the potion - they get back up and battle resumes with LW healed.

I think the books are there to be enjoyed and the rules are lax enough to do that. You can make it harder or easier, but knowing where the +CS items are, and good use of th Disciplines, mean LW will be almost invincble anyway.

Book 17 is still bloody hard though! :lol:

 

[Marcinko]

I didn't think of this when I made the original post, but all the discussion about healing and different categories of it made me remember that it came up on Aon..

The description of Healing in the gamebook states that it can be used to heal "one point of Endurance lost DUE TO COMBAT for each numbered section passed through". (Capital emphasis added by me) The discussion was that technically, Healing is only supposed to be able to cure Endurance you lose in combat, and nothing else, no mental loss, food loss, stubbed your toe on a tree stump for 1 EP, etc.

Interesting thought, because that *is* the literal wording of the Discipline.

As far as bows go, funny SnowShadow should mention that, because that was something else I always had a problem with. All through the Magnakai adventures, whenever you get to a section where you pick a Random Number to use your bow, it says that you can add your +2 modifier for Weapon Mastery, but it never mentions any of the upgrades for the Weaponmaster skill. By the time you get to the later Magnakai books, if you have all the WeaponMastery skills, plus the Silver Bow of Ruanon, you'd beat any Random Number roll just in modifiers alone. But invariably, the entires only state you can add your modifier for the basic WM, and only one or two in the whole series mention the Bow of Ruanon as an additional modifier you can have. It got to the point where I wouldn't carry a bow on any adventure, because I didn't want the hassle of figuring out if I was allowed to use all my modifiers, and just automatically making the roll without even rolling just seemed like cheating, somehow.

As far as the dying and what level of CS and EP is acceptable, it seems that other than SnowShadow's idea for eventually maxing out--which I have to admit, I don't fully understand--no one really has a solution for that. It seemed like cheating for me to just give myself 19/29 at the beginning of the series, but anything less and you'll never make it through the books, even if you only replay the book you die in. Some books are just too damn difficult, even WITH full skills. (Deathlords of Ixia comes to mind.) The books all say that "as long as you choose the right combination of skills and equipment, you can make it through regardless of your CS and EP", but we all know that's a load of crap.

On balance, I love these books, and they were the first gamebook series I ever discovered, and I've spent a lot of time and money finding and collecting them once they went out of print, through Ebay, then trying to find the British editions once I found out all the American ones after Book 12 were abridged. But I was always amazed and a little disappointed that there are so many ambiguities and outright mistakes in the series.

I haven't gotten any of the new Mongoose editions yet. Is Mongoose cleaning this up at all? Are they listening to reader feedback and getting together with Dever to hammer any of this stuff out?

 

[Greg Smith]

I do sort of agree that the system is simple, so differentiating damage can sometimes be arbitrary.

Is damage from a fall the same as combat?

Where does mental damage from a Helghast fit?

And more obscurely, the 2EP for the Bor Brew hangover?

If armour adds EP, is that EP lost first or last? Can you heal that EP?

 

[beowuuf]

Also remember that laumspur is used only after combat. So you can be sliced and bashed to hell and back by book sections, but you can only heal after the fight that kills you anyway. When if you think about it, a strange little herb should only really affect damage book section 'lesser' damage, instead of having any effect on your freely pouring sword wound!

I think it can be argued as much for flavour text or options as for explicit instructions, especially when it does not rule out other circumstances.


Remember Project Aon has much of the hammering out already, and that is why JD and Mongoose asked to use their version of the books for the new books. I don't think there has been much further cleaning up of rules, though occasionally little re-written bits crop up (I recall book 2 clarifying something after the ship wreck)

Nothing has been explicitly called out, and I think it would destroy alot of the feel of the books if some of these things were made too complex. We can add our complexity later, but breeding compexity never stops questions, it always introduces new questions and edge cases until the rules are the size of the book.

 

[SnowShadow]

On an entirely unrelated note, happy birthday!


(You regsitered on the TotS forum a few years back so it comes up )

Thanks!

I LIKE the idea of limiting Healing/Curing +1EP per section to heal a maximum of 10 EP per adventure, and you can use the +20EP Battleheal too, like New Order Adventures. If you stick with that I agree you can heal ANY damage - hunger, wounds, mindforce. I may stick to that in future, would still keep the necessity of Hunting or carrying meals because I'd want to heal after fights, etc. What a simple solution!!! Never thought of using this method BEFORE Bk21, Healing is just too powerful/unbalanced vs Hunting else - even with the Random Number bonus from Hunting (doesn't matter if you fail the roll because you can heal the damage invariably a worse roll causes).

Bows. If you have it the Silver Oak Bow always adds +3 to the Random number, Weaponmastery with Bow adds another +3, becoming +5 for Mentora - so with all of them you end up with +8 to any Bow test Bks 10-12. I assume you don't get the extra +2 Mentora bonus for bks13+; ONLY Grand Weaponmastery adds +3 to the Random number, unless the text says otherwise - Weaponmatery in Bow has no effect.

Other ideas for getting good stats.
Bk 1. Pick 4 Random Numbers and destribute them as you wish for CS, EP, Starting Gold & Weaponskill (if you don't have it, this will be the Weapon for when you do).

After each book, if you wish reroll CS & EP (re-training), keep either the old or new. Bks 13+ Reroll CS & EP with the new Initial scores (i.e. Random Number +25CS/+30EP). Eventually you will get your maximums.

I am hoping the new Bk 17 will be modified so that you do not need your stats at maximum, it is hard even if you do at the moment.

Is using Mindblast cheating Bk6-12 if you don't have Psi-Surge? I don't think so.

 

[SnowShadow]

SnowShadow's idea for eventually maxing out--which I have to admit, I don't fully understand

OOps, sorry. I do tend to waffle.

Here let me put it another way. You have Initial Scores of 9CS and 19EP. +1CS and +1EP each time you pick the following (include final Kai Discipline for completing BK5)...

Animal Kinship
Camouflage
Healing
Hunting
Mind Over Matter
Mindblast
Mindshield
Sixth Sense
Tracking
Weaponskill

Assimilance
Animal Mastery
Deliverence
Grand Huntmastery
Grand Pathsmanship
Grand Nexus
Grand Weaponmastery
Kai Screen
Kai Surge
Telegnosis

You have CS14 EP24 at the start of Bk 1.
You have CS19 EP29 at the start of Bk 6.
Lore Circles give CS/EP bonuses as normal, but -11EP when you complete them, GM experience +1CS/+2EP as normal too.

(So New Order/Bk21 CS24 EP29 add +1CS +1EP each GM Discipline on the list above in the same way.)

Hope that makes more sense.