lastbesthope
Mongoose
Polaris said:
Well you;ve answered your own question fairly well there, I mean we have been told numerous times that 1st edition supplements can be used with 2E so there you are.
LBH
Ragged Edge PC Choices
- Thread starter Talinfein
- Start date
Well you;ve answered your own question fairly well there, I mean we have been told numerous times that 1st edition supplements can be used with 2E so there you are.
LBH
lastbesthope said:
Em, I hate to quibble, but could you please tell me where officially PCs are allowed to use 1E supplemental material for 2E? Not trying to be an ass, but I don't remember seeing that. Naturally, GMs can (and do) make such decisions on their own.
Secondly, could you please point out to me in second edition, where alien Teeps are any worse off than human ones.
I am suspicious of the first point because the rules for Teeps (AFAIK anyway) were rather markedly revamped including the rules regarding P-Rating and how it effected the character, and so I hope you'll understand if I don't exactly trust 1E material for Teeps in 2E nor do I accept those rules as valid in a 2E rules discussion especially for a 2E adventure.
-Polaris
Gabriel_Luna
Mongoose
Also it's worth pointing out that Mr. Gray wasn't a throw-away, 5 minute character, he was the key to a successful resolution of the plot. The whole final confrontation hinged on him being a fundamentally good person, and willing to do the right thing (i.e. stand up the military and Psi Corp (and in fact Mr. Bester specifically, since it was hinted that that whole episode was payback against Sinclair)). And the fact is he wasn't a commercial teep, he was a military assistant. So the fact that he was trusted with this assignment (a revenge, trumped up attack on Sinclair) and the fact that he STILL proved to be fundamentally good says to me that there have to be a lot of Psi Corp teeps who are just normal, good folks. If he was a fluke then he wouldn't have been trusted to be there in the first place, they would have picked someone far more reliable. To me, that's an example that proves that there have to be more like him, and a lot more, or he wouldn't have been there at all. He's a solid character with a backstory, personality and motivations, so I think he's a perfectly valid counterexample. And if he's a valid counterexample I think you must reexamine your assumptions.
Add to him Byron (who WAS loyal Corp when he decided killing was wrong, not to mention under Bester's direct control/brainwashing and he still broke free), the one from Crusade whose name I can't remember (who was also corp loyal until he realized the corp was bad and acted against it), Lyta (who was corp raised until she decided to make a run for it), etc etc. It's worth bearing in mind that most rogues aren't just on the run from the start. Most of them are in the Corp and THEN run which says that they clearly don't agree with the Corp for some reason. You can't discount rogues, since every rogue from the Corp was at one point simply in the Corp but unsure about whether to run. Every rogue from the Corp had doubts, experiences and problems that eventually led them to run, so playing a nice, doubtful Corp character is perfectly legitimate. You could even play a loyalist who had compassion and still wanted the Corp to come out on top, thinking that while it's bad, it's better than nothing.
I think the key here is not that all Psi Corp telepaths are evil, manipulative and murderous but that every Psi Corp telepath has seen the real face of the Psi Corp. The common thread in every single teep story we have is that the Corp has to reveal itself eventually. Lyta's experience interning with the Psi Cops, Talia's discussions with the telepath underground railroad, Byron's order to fire on civilians, Ironheart's experimentation, Mr. Gray's involvement in the Eyes affair, Crusade's teep's meeting with the rogue...and on the other side, the Bloodhound units hunting their own, Bester's various problems from the books, Black Omega attacking civilians, the Psi Cop working with Morden and EarthDome, etc etc. The difference between the loyalists and the rogues are that the rogues reject what they see, while the loyalists do not (whether out of simple loyalty, brainwashing, or because they know that while the Corp is bad, it's better than the alternatives).
So, to summarize, a telepath like you describe is perfectly legitimate. However to select one outlook as the only valid one is wrong, and does a disservice to the variety and depth of telepath characters we have seen in the series.
Add to him Byron (who WAS loyal Corp when he decided killing was wrong, not to mention under Bester's direct control/brainwashing and he still broke free), the one from Crusade whose name I can't remember (who was also corp loyal until he realized the corp was bad and acted against it), Lyta (who was corp raised until she decided to make a run for it), etc etc. It's worth bearing in mind that most rogues aren't just on the run from the start. Most of them are in the Corp and THEN run which says that they clearly don't agree with the Corp for some reason. You can't discount rogues, since every rogue from the Corp was at one point simply in the Corp but unsure about whether to run. Every rogue from the Corp had doubts, experiences and problems that eventually led them to run, so playing a nice, doubtful Corp character is perfectly legitimate. You could even play a loyalist who had compassion and still wanted the Corp to come out on top, thinking that while it's bad, it's better than nothing.
I think the key here is not that all Psi Corp telepaths are evil, manipulative and murderous but that every Psi Corp telepath has seen the real face of the Psi Corp. The common thread in every single teep story we have is that the Corp has to reveal itself eventually. Lyta's experience interning with the Psi Cops, Talia's discussions with the telepath underground railroad, Byron's order to fire on civilians, Ironheart's experimentation, Mr. Gray's involvement in the Eyes affair, Crusade's teep's meeting with the rogue...and on the other side, the Bloodhound units hunting their own, Bester's various problems from the books, Black Omega attacking civilians, the Psi Cop working with Morden and EarthDome, etc etc. The difference between the loyalists and the rogues are that the rogues reject what they see, while the loyalists do not (whether out of simple loyalty, brainwashing, or because they know that while the Corp is bad, it's better than the alternatives).
So, to summarize, a telepath like you describe is perfectly legitimate. However to select one outlook as the only valid one is wrong, and does a disservice to the variety and depth of telepath characters we have seen in the series.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Polaris said:
You're doing a blinding job at answering your own questions yet again :lol: , or at least the first one.
Who says what material you can use in a game is at the discretion of the GM, and the official line from Mongoose was that 1E supplements would be compatible with 2E. I know we're still waiting on full conversion guides but still, that was the company line.
As to your second point, I don't recollect ever stating anything about the relative strengths of different race teeps in 2E. If you're just looking for the info rather than trying to get me to back a point i don't remember making, then you're guess is as good as mine, I'm not so up on the 2E rules yet. I could look it up, but then so can anyone who's interested.
LBH
R Arceneaux
Mongoose
RE P guy...
What are you babbling about guy?
I was never ever talking about alien telpeaths other than to state a personal opinion that they should have the ability to have far more teep P than humans and that the vorlons should be included as Player characters.
But that opinion is purely from my personal and deep fondness for "Power Play" over banance playing.
Its you who keeps wackin their jaws about alien teeps. I truly could not care about alien teeps.
My character is a HUMAN teep, registered with PC as one of its official agents and operatives currently assigned to Bab 5 operations area as Liason to Bab 5 operational area from Psy Corps and whose immediate superior is the local Psy Cop en resident. Her first and primary loyality lies with PC. Any loyalty shown to non telepahts is purely coincidental and for effect only.
Play any alien you want and get all fuzzy. I truly dont care about alien teeps nor do I ever plan to play one.
What are you babbling about guy?
I was never ever talking about alien telpeaths other than to state a personal opinion that they should have the ability to have far more teep P than humans and that the vorlons should be included as Player characters.
But that opinion is purely from my personal and deep fondness for "Power Play" over banance playing.
Its you who keeps wackin their jaws about alien teeps. I truly could not care about alien teeps.
My character is a HUMAN teep, registered with PC as one of its official agents and operatives currently assigned to Bab 5 operations area as Liason to Bab 5 operational area from Psy Corps and whose immediate superior is the local Psy Cop en resident. Her first and primary loyality lies with PC. Any loyalty shown to non telepahts is purely coincidental and for effect only.
Play any alien you want and get all fuzzy. I truly dont care about alien teeps nor do I ever plan to play one.
lastbesthope said:
Again, could you please point me to where Mongoose is saying that officially? I am not questioning your word per se, but I'd like to see that in writing before taking the word of any poster here no matter how exalted that poster may be.
I was asking for information. I know for a fact that the Telepathy rules underwent a complete rewrite in 2E, and at least according to the core book, alien teeps are no worse off than human teeps. I was wondering if you had any information that could add to that since R Arceneaux seems to be insisting up and down that Human teeps are superior with no rules support for that position (that I can see anyway).
-Polaris
R Arceneaux said:
*shrug* I am basing my comments based on the second edition rules. You made the comment that alien Telepaths got hosed or words to that effect. I am calling you out on that and demanding that you back that up with second edition rules to support it. Near as I can tell alien Teeps are just as good mechanically as human ones (except Narn which are excluded of course). Based on that, your entire position about Telepaths and their suitability for the Ragged Edge goes out the airlock.
While I am at it, can you show me any support in the B5 universe that indicates that Telepaths of Alien younger races are any more powerful or should be than humans. I honestly don't see it and thus don't know why you think Alien Teeps should be more powerful. If we are talking Middle or First One races, that's different of course, but then again, it's my very strong understanding that those races are not suitable for PCs.
Your basic position rests on the assumption that PC teeps have to be human.
Bully for you. No one is saying that you can't play your Teep that way. What I am saying, and what others are saying it that it's not the only way to play a Teep as a PC even if you are human and even you are a member of Psi-Corps. That's all.
-Polaris
Mongoose Gar
Mongoose
As far as I'm concerned, 1st edition stuff is usable with 2nd edition stuff - but all sourcebooks from either edition, and every rule for that matter, is subordinate to the whim of the Games Master.
The aim of the Babylon 5 game, like any roleplaying game, is to maximise fun for all players and the GM, howsoever that fun manifests. Anything that is unfun for the players and GM should be excised from your game.
The aim of the Babylon 5 game, like any roleplaying game, is to maximise fun for all players and the GM, howsoever that fun manifests. Anything that is unfun for the players and GM should be excised from your game.
R Arceneaux said:
Wrong again. You've been given the solid counterexample that blows your hypothesis out of the water.
What a surprise! But your choice to play this character has absolutely nothing to do with how other teeps are played.
irrelevant. You have failed to answer the statement that she was teep-centered (in fact, she went into depth about how that money represented the blood, sweat, and tears of numberless teeps), and not self-centered. When you have a solid answer to that, feel free to give it.
Utterly irrelevant, all of this. G'kar didn't go because he liked her attitude. He went because he wanted her help breeding Narn telepaths, and because he thought he could teach her to temper her anger with wisdom.
If you think I'm going to play "Why don't you/Yes but" with you after the way you've handled argumentation, you should think more. You've got plenty on your plate as it is. When you've handled it, we may talk further.
Simply not true. As you know.
Actually, no, you've been arguing exactly the opposite. You've been arguing that all teeps must be played as you see Psi Cops, or they're being misplayed. The fact that you can't show a single credible reason for accepting this position seems to have aescaped you. I assure you, it hasn't escaped me.
Oh, that's been made abundantly clear.
But it's also clear that your reading is exceedingly selective, even while you chide others for not reading the rules.
Mongoose Gar said:
I am sorry if I seem to be belabouring the point, but I don't find this particularly helpful. I was asking for the official position of Mongoose, in writing, that says that 1E supplements are completely compatible with 2E rules. Until I am pointed to that, I have to continue to strongly question that in light of the rules rewrite Telepathy underwent for 2E.
I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take.
As for the rest, we know (or at least I do and I think most other posters do as well) that the GM can include or exclude as he or she sees fit, and I think it's understood that what isn't fun shouldn't be included.
Again, I don't find that helpful for this discussion.
-Polaris
R Arceneaux
Mongoose
Re G guy...
ACTUALLY G....
Sorry that you feel that way since I am 100% right and you are welll lets just say not right.
As to teep rules yea they need tweaking /UPWARD. Bestor was completely right with his attitude of superiority and smugness. Teeps are very much "Superior" to mundanes and their characters should and ought to reflect that "Superiority" over mundanes.
And also players should be allowed to play any race they wish (including Vorlons, and Shadows) with teep ratings determined by using die in accord to race as Racial Traits with bonus di to determine their final teep.
The list of player races should be expanded to include Vorlons, shadows and in general ALL the races portreyed on the Bab 5 Television Series.
Teep ratings were applicable should be determined by using die appropriate to the species. I would say D20 for Vorlon for example. Mims should be a D12. Humans should be upped to at least D6. Other races according to their brain complexity except for the Narn of course--all of theirs got killed off.
ACTUALLY G....
Sorry that you feel that way since I am 100% right and you are welll lets just say not right.
As to teep rules yea they need tweaking /UPWARD. Bestor was completely right with his attitude of superiority and smugness. Teeps are very much "Superior" to mundanes and their characters should and ought to reflect that "Superiority" over mundanes.
And also players should be allowed to play any race they wish (including Vorlons, and Shadows) with teep ratings determined by using die in accord to race as Racial Traits with bonus di to determine their final teep.
The list of player races should be expanded to include Vorlons, shadows and in general ALL the races portreyed on the Bab 5 Television Series.
Teep ratings were applicable should be determined by using die appropriate to the species. I would say D20 for Vorlon for example. Mims should be a D12. Humans should be upped to at least D6. Other races according to their brain complexity except for the Narn of course--all of theirs got killed off.
Gabriel_Luna
Mongoose
R Arceneaux said:
Well, I know when I'm beat...good luck guys.
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
1st edition Darkness and Light you can play Vorlons and Shadows
Mongoose Gar
Mongoose
Polaris said:
Hmph. Completely compatible, as in, can you pick up a 1st ed supplement and use it exactly as written right now this instant? No, the skill changes alone mean that they're not _completely and utterly_ compatible. However, 1st edition is close enough to 2nd that pretty much everything should be usable either as is or with very little tweaking (exceptions- the Centauri standing rules, ship combat stuff).
Certainly, I can't think of any telepathy rules in any of the books offhand that wouldn't be incompatible with 2nd ed stuff.
("Official positions" are just weird when it comes to a roleplaying game, to be honest. I wrote the 2nd edition rules, but I'm effectively just a freelancer to Mongoose, although admittedly a long-term one. Half the 1st edition supplements were written before I even started writing for Mongoose, and different writers and editors are going to have different takes on the material.)
My point is this:
As Mongoose Gar just admitted, no RPG (or pretty much any game) is going to be completely cross-compatible across editions. To point out a key difference in compatibility with Telepaths, in 2E a Teep's P rating is determined completely randomly and with no other mechanical effect while in 1E that wasn't the case (you paid for a high P rating with less skills).
Given that using rules across edition lines may be problematic, and given that Ragged Edge is a 2E adventure, I submit that we should only consider 2E rules when talking about PC type suitability for this adventure....with the understanding of course that many GMs will use 1E material.
As for Shadows and Light, I believe that Vorlons and Shadows were stated out, but to use a DnD aphorism, just becase a race has a listed ECL does not make it a suitable PC race.
-Polaris
As Mongoose Gar just admitted, no RPG (or pretty much any game) is going to be completely cross-compatible across editions. To point out a key difference in compatibility with Telepaths, in 2E a Teep's P rating is determined completely randomly and with no other mechanical effect while in 1E that wasn't the case (you paid for a high P rating with less skills).
Given that using rules across edition lines may be problematic, and given that Ragged Edge is a 2E adventure, I submit that we should only consider 2E rules when talking about PC type suitability for this adventure....with the understanding of course that many GMs will use 1E material.
As for Shadows and Light, I believe that Vorlons and Shadows were stated out, but to use a DnD aphorism, just becase a race has a listed ECL does not make it a suitable PC race.
-Polaris
B_Steele
Mongoose
I'm not going to jump in here and debate the rights and wrongs of the Psi Corps or other telepaths in any way...
...but I am going to say that many of your questions will be answered in an upcoming book: Telepaths.
I also think that some folk in this thread need to take a cool breath and loosen up a bit. This is a game where people have fun...there is not a right or wrong answer unless it directly breaks a rule as determined by your Games Master.
If your GM thinks that power gaming Psi Corps is the only way to go, so be it. If they think that aliens should roll different dice for P-level, it's their show so they can. If someone thinks that all teeps should be banned from player use in their games, that's their choice.
Basically guys, I'm just saying that there are very few rights and wrongs in a RPG - and they all revolve around your GM's choices.
Anyway, back to work for me...
Bry
...but I am going to say that many of your questions will be answered in an upcoming book: Telepaths.
I also think that some folk in this thread need to take a cool breath and loosen up a bit. This is a game where people have fun...there is not a right or wrong answer unless it directly breaks a rule as determined by your Games Master.
If your GM thinks that power gaming Psi Corps is the only way to go, so be it. If they think that aliens should roll different dice for P-level, it's their show so they can. If someone thinks that all teeps should be banned from player use in their games, that's their choice.
Basically guys, I'm just saying that there are very few rights and wrongs in a RPG - and they all revolve around your GM's choices.
Anyway, back to work for me...
Bry
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Polaris said:
Sorry I forgot that some people haven't been living and btreathing this game since beofre 1E was released. It is mentioned here, at the bottom of the blurb about the 2E core book:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/detail.php?qsID=1113&qsSeries=11
Though as I and Mongoose Steele have mentioned the compatibility is the official line, not necessarily the actuality of it. Still some tweaks required.
LBH
LBH,
Thanks for the pointer. I have only played B5 in 2E and learned about some of the 1E rules afterwords. Nevertheless, I think my point about sticking to 2E rules should apply since it's never possible to be completely compatible across editions (with the caveat already mentioned in my prior post).
Mongoose Steele,
At the risk of being difficult, I think in order to avoid taking sides, you are in fact taking one. To my knowledge there has only been on poster here who insisted (at least by my reading) that there was one and only one way to play a telepath or to handle one in a group, and that said telepath(s) had to be human.
I certainly haven't suggested there was a right or wrong way to play a telepath....just insisted that there were a lot more options than met the eye. I know Giavonn, and I am quite sure he wasn't insisting there was only one way to play one either. In fact, I for one (and I think a couple of others) have quite openly said that it was alright to play a Teep as a Psi-Corps loyalist jerk....just that this wasn't the only option.
The problem is that when one tries to avoid taking sides and one side is (at least IMHO) holding an outrageous position, then the very act of such avoidance is taking sides.
-Polaris
Thanks for the pointer. I have only played B5 in 2E and learned about some of the 1E rules afterwords. Nevertheless, I think my point about sticking to 2E rules should apply since it's never possible to be completely compatible across editions (with the caveat already mentioned in my prior post).
Mongoose Steele,
At the risk of being difficult, I think in order to avoid taking sides, you are in fact taking one. To my knowledge there has only been on poster here who insisted (at least by my reading) that there was one and only one way to play a telepath or to handle one in a group, and that said telepath(s) had to be human.
I certainly haven't suggested there was a right or wrong way to play a telepath....just insisted that there were a lot more options than met the eye. I know Giavonn, and I am quite sure he wasn't insisting there was only one way to play one either. In fact, I for one (and I think a couple of others) have quite openly said that it was alright to play a Teep as a Psi-Corps loyalist jerk....just that this wasn't the only option.
The problem is that when one tries to avoid taking sides and one side is (at least IMHO) holding an outrageous position, then the very act of such avoidance is taking sides.
-Polaris
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