Queston - Single or Multiple Rolls?

[Supplement Four]

I was wondering how you GMs more experienced with the game handle skill checks when more than one person could roll a check.

For example, let's say a lone PC thief is creeping down a hallway with open windows that look out on the battlements. Five guards are clustered around, talking to each other, trying to stay awake and keep the cold from finding a home in their bones.

There are curtains over the windows to keep the cold out, but they billow in the wind this high up.

The thief needs to move past these guards. The guards can't see the thief, because of the curtains, but they surely can hear him if he makes a lot of noise.

So, the thief rolls his Move Silently skill opposed by...what?

Does the one thief check go against five different rolls?

Or, do the guards only get one roll? Maybe using the Aid Another rule?



OK, let me make this a bit more complicated. Let's say three PCs are sneaking down the corridor, trying to sneak past the five guards. How do you handle that?

How do you GMs handle both of these situations?

 

[Clovenhoof]

You can't aid another in listening.

Here's how you do stuff like that -- it's actually not so obscure:

each PC rolls a Move Silently check. The lowest check sets the target number / DC for the guards.

Then each guard rolls his Listen check. But don't forget all the DC modifiers!
+1 per 10' distance (this really adds up!)
+5 Listener distracted (which is obviously the case)
also, for the background noise (guards talking to each other, wind), I'd assign another penalty of about +3 to +5.
for the curtains, which also dampen sound, I'd assign about +2 to +3

Technically, the rolls would have to be made every round, with the PCs covering half their movement each round, so normally 15'. But since that's a lot of rolling and the Law of Extreme Results works against them, I'd let them roll only once for the entire hallway.

So all in all, if the closest proximity to the guards is 15', there Listen checks would be at least at +11, up to +15 to the lowest MS roll.

 

[Supplement Four]

You can't aid another in listening.

I agree. (After looking at it closer.)

each PC rolls a Move Silently check. The lowest check sets the target number / DC for the guards.

After more reading and some discussion on a 3.5E forum, I think a process like this is the way to go--but backwards from what you have. I'd focus on the PCs, not the guards.

Then each guard rolls his Listen check. But don't forget all the DC modifiers!

See...there's a problem here. If you roll for each guard, the chance that a guard's Listen check will beat the PC's Move Silent roll unrealistically skews towards 100%. The more guards you have, the more likely one of them will hear. It makes it almost impossbile to sneak past any large number of NPCs, which we both know is do-able under the right circumstances.

I note a line under the Listen skill description that says to use one throw for a group of potential listeners.

So, my first inclination is to pick the guard with the best Listen skill, roll that one check behind the screen, and use that as the DC for the player(s) Move Silently roll.

The Listen modifiers can be applied to the player's check as a bonus. I agree with you that the guards are distracted, so the player thief gets a +5 to his check, plus the +1 distance bonuses.




In the other forum discussion, one GM offered an interesting idea. He suggested using the Take 10 rule for the guards. The process woudl be the same. The thief gets the +5 distraction bonus and the +1 distance bonuses to his Move Silently throw. But the DC is taken from the guard with the best Listen check +10.

That sure sounds like a simple way to go.

Would be good for Spot/Hide checks, too.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Heh, I was just about to suggest letting the guards Take 10 as well. ^^

Seems fine to me.
_Maybe_ since they are guards, and finding intruders is their job, they might actually have the Alertness or Skill Focus: Listen feat. (Probably not both if they are low-level.)

And now I'm wondering:
can the players also choose to Take 10?
On the one hand, it is a kind of stressful situation. On the other hand, they are not in combat and, unless they expect running into a patrol, they can take all the time in the world to get to the far end.

 

[VincentDarlage]

For me, it depends on the mood of the game/scene I am running. If I need the scene to be especially tense, then I roll for each guard. If it is just a routine nuisance to get around to get to where the real fun is, then I just roll once.

 

[Supplement Four]

Heh, I was just about to suggest letting the guards Take 10 as well. ^^

Technically, it's a breach of the rules since Taking 10 can't be used when the character is distracted (in the specific situation I outlined above).

But, it is a quickie shortcut for the GM when governing these types of situations.

I think a lone guard, walking the battlements, could use the Take 10, though. And, I like how the rule makes Listen/Spot checks very easy to manage, even if there's a lot of people around.

can the players also choose to Take 10?

I'm not sure I'd allow it. A character is not supposed to use it when threatened or distracted. The question is: Is he "threatened" while moving silently down that corridor?

He certainly will be if caught, which is why I tend to say that the Take 10 can't be used from the thief's point of view.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Well, that would defeat the purpose of Take 10, if you disallow it whenever a failed check would get the character in trouble. That is almost always the case, or you wouldn't need to roll. On the contrary, it specifically says "Taking 10 is a safety measure". So generally I tend to say, as long as they aren't under attack, they can Take 10.

However, good catch about distracted guards not being permitted to Take 10. Here it's a question whether you want to break a rule, especially since in this case it would probably be beneficial to the players.

 

[strategos14]

If the guards are actively trying to listen, then I roll for each guard and would roll for each PC sneaking. Sometimes though I will just have the guards take 10 on listen checks (depend on how the situation is feeling) and the the sneak checks just are beating that same number each time.

 

[Supplement Four]

If the guards are actively trying to listen, then I roll for each guard and would roll for each PC sneaking.

The stacking in this situation really bothers me.

Let's say you've got a PC with a Move Silent that is so good, he'll beat any of the guards 90% of the time.

Each guard has a 10% chance of hearing the PC. Well, if you roll all five guards, it becomes a 50% chance that the PC will be heard. If three more guards walk up, then they've got an 80% chance of hearing the PC.

I agree that the number of guards should increase the chance of the guards hearing--there's more of them to hear. But if we roll that way, this PC, who is very good at Move Silently (90% chance vs. one guard) will fail 100% of the time if there are 10+ guards out there.

This is why a single roll should be made for all the guards--not independently.

Think about it this way: You and I are flipping coins. You land a "head". I win when I land a "head", and I lose when I land a "tail".

You roll once. I roll 10 times--and all I need to do is flip a "head" once to win.

I'm going to win that bet.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Well, if I remember correctly, our DM also rolled just once for all guards, but let's have a look what happens if you do it by the book:

What are the chances of each individual guard, really? Is Listen a class skill for Soldiers? In AE it is not. I also can't see most guards being so clever that they get a bonus skill point. And their Wisdom will probably also be limited.
So... you like low-level play, right? Then 3rd level soldiers sound about right as the typical guard.
Most guards will have a Listen check of 0. The absolute maximum would be an intelligent guard buying Listen as bonus class skill, spending 2 of their 4-5 feats on Alertness and Skill Focus, and he gets a total of +12. That is of course _very_ alert for this level, but really, what are the odds?

On the other hand, the sneakers are likely to have some Dex bonus as well as ranks in Move Silently, and wearing light armour. All in all, I'd say around +10 at low level. Add to that the modifiers we have established further above: if the guards aren't alert, but killing time, we have another +11.
So that means a _minimum_ Listen DC of 22 even before any dice are rolled.
The rules of 1 and 20 do not apply for skill checks.
This means that the typical guards can _never_ hear the intruders, not even if they roll all 20s and the thieves roll all 1s, as long as they are not paying real attention. You don't even need to roll.

Now, maybe _one_ of the guards is more attentive and/or has a better Listen check (maybe +6). Then you roll for that one, and see what happens.

 

[strategos14]

The average guard isn't going to hear a thing from a mid-level thief unless the thief rolls like shit and the guards roll well. If the thief is only second level then I guess he shouldn't try sneaking by ten guards. A 6th level thief is gunna have like a +11 or +12 right? Average guards gunna be listening with a maybe +3 listen and they'll really only get one or two rolls while the thief is even in range to be heard. There's has to be a chance he might be heard, even only a couple guards but that chance is thin. If there's ten 8th level barbarians posing as guards and an 8th level thief is trying to sneak then that thief better know how to run. The last time the thief I GM tried sneaking, he rolled like two ones during the same endeavor. Even though he has a +14 to sneak, some people heard him. It wasn't his night. He was kicking over trash cans, stepping on stray cats. Shit happens.

 

[Supplement Four]

The analysis of this specific situation is appreciated, but it looks past the real problem--the stacking problem.

If I change the people who can listen, the analysis falls apart.

If you have a Barbarian with a high Move Silently, and he's trying to sneak past a gaggle of Temptresses or several Borderers on their 20 year reunion meet-up, chances are, he's not going to make it.

The problem is that rolling separately for every potential listener makes it unrealistically hard to sneak anywhere if a number of people might hear you.

Let's say 100 Temptresses are in a large ballroom, and a Thief is trying to move past the covered, but open windows that leads to the porch-balcony. Even if you throw the Thief some heavy modifiers because the Temptresses are distracted with themselves and for other things in his favor, he will be heard by someone if you throw the opposing dice 100 times.

The only way for the thief not to be heard under this situation is if the Thief rolls a total that is not achievable by any of the Temptresses (for example, the thief rolls 25 and the highest any one Temptress can roll is 23).

That's a mechanics problem that the game doesn't handle well.

You almost have to go with the optional rule, under the Listen skill, that instructs the GM to use one check for all NPCs when the PC is up against multiple opponents.

 

[strategos14]

that's exactly what'd i'd do in the temptress situation. one roll i mean. i't's situational i guess. to be honest, i've handled it in various ways without really thinking about it at the time. as long as it all makes sense for the story and is plausible