Questions (Several) about Skills

[Supplement Four]

Just some questions about the game for you guys....



Profession - Besides what's written in the book (a dicing method to simulate the PC making money), how else can the Profession skill be used by a player's character? What benefit would a PC get from getting this skill?



Profession Synergy - Shouldn't there be a synergy bonus associated with the craft used in the profession? Let's say you're a good smith. Shouldn't that net you a +2 synergy bonus to your Profession (Smith) skill? If you make better weapons and bang out a men horseshoe, wouldn't that help you make more money in your profession? Because you've got quality goods?

But...maybe 5 ranks in the craft won't do it? More are needed for a synergy bonus?




Concentration - How about this skill? Besides being useful to mages, is this skill useful to any other type of character? How would one use it?

I think I read it somewhere that it's used when a check to be lost in the wilderness is made. If so, why not a synergy bonus if Knowledge (Local) has 5+ ranks?




Governor Stats - Are there any situations where the governor stat for a skill is changed in your game? For example, let's say you've got Open Lock (DEX) maxed out. When your fellow thief asks you to look at a chest and tell him what type of lock it uses (how hard it will be to pick), shouldn't the thief use this skill with INT or WIS as the governor stat? Or does a character have to spend points on a Knowlege skill to tell?

Maybe this is a good use for Profession (Locksmith)?

If you've got Perform (arcane dance), a dance of specific moves that must be performed exactly in order to call the demon to the gate (a ritual dance), shouldn't that dance be governed by Perform (arcane dance) using DEX instead of the default Perform (arcance dance) CHA?

What about the character who has Ride maxed out and is a decent horseman. Should he use Ride and INT or WIS together in order to select the best horse from the stable...or to know the characteristics of specific horse breeds?



Set me straight on these things, please.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Profession: mostly flavour. The only practical application I can think of is using "Profession:Sailor" to run a boat, plot a course and navigate it, etc.

Apart from that, "Profession" can be used as minor roleplaying spice. Successfully using "Profession:Cook" might give you a reaction bonus when you bribe an NPC with food and stuff like that.
Or suppose one of your PCs has Profession:Farmer, and they come across a blighted field, he might be able to identify the cause of the blight (or determine it couldn't have been natural causes).

Stuff like that.

Synergy: well not really. Particularly for your example, there is no such skill as "Profession:Smith", because Smith is a Craft skill and nothing else.
Rule of thumb: everything that let's you _create_ something in a rather complicated process is a Craft skill. Whatever job is clearly not a Craft skill, can be a Profession. But no job can be both.

Concentration: this skill is not very useful indeed. This is a D&D relic, where it also was only useful to spellcasters, but of course those are much more abundant in that game.

Governor Stats: I can see what you mean, but I wouldn't go there. D20 is not a life simulation. Your high-Dex Thief will just feel shafted if he's suddenly supposed to roll Open Lock checks with his lower Int modifier.

Besides, as for this particular example, this is a perfect situation for the Aid Another rule. I.e. one character makes a skill check DC10 (which he is likely to succeed by default) and thus confers a +2 bonus on the second character who makes the actual check. Note that this is most effective when the character with the highest skill makes the actual check and the others support him.

Again, what you might want is the TDE system where each skill is governed by two or three stats, so to "Ride" you have to roll Agility, Intuition and Charisma, or something like that.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

I personally have always kinda disliked Profession, Perform and to a lesser extent Craft.
Their power level in reference to other skills is just inordinate/inconsistent. And I think any skill you have to spend points on, should be equally useful when compared to equal points in other skills, and equally useful to any character that spends those points.
I mean, in general these skills are just ways to make money in downtime. Okay, that's never going to be life or death. The number of points a character spends on Jump, or climb however might be.
But then, you have some instances where certain profession skills might be life or death. If you set foot on a boat, your Profession (Sailor) skill might be the deciding factor on whether you survive... I cant imagine a similar situation coming up for profession (Farmer), or (Scribe).
Then there's Craft. If you have Craft (Tiki doll), yeah its just a way to make money. If you have Craft (weapon) or (Armor) its a good way to outfit yourself with cheap, masterwork equipment. Not exactly on an equal keel there.
And perform... The worst of all. There is no logical reason for this to ever come up in a game, other than to make money, or just to say, "I'm entertaining people with my Lute." (which in my opinion there's no need to spend points on. its narrative.)...Unless your playing a D&D bard, in which case, it becomes the most useful skill you have.
In my opinion, all skills should be created equal. I don't even feel one needs to have skill that you drop points on, just to make money. The money you get from those skills is so minor that you could just have every player choose a profession for their character, and when plying their trade, just make a roll of d20+Character Level+appropriate Ability Mod to make money.
Or one could go even less structured and just have people go, "This week, I get a random dayjob." and have them roll d20+Character Level+highest ability score.
Hell, in Conan you could just say, "any character can declare that hes plying his chosen profession to negate the cost of high living in a given week."
I don't see how the handful of silver one gets from those skills is on par in power level with other skills of equal rank. And I don't like, that certain classes and/or certain of those skills become overly important in certain circumstances.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm not disagreeing--just playing devil's advocate.

I do see your point as to the worth of some of these skills to the average adventurer. Maybe they were put into the game to cover the NPCs but made avaiable to PCs as well?

I personally have always kinda disliked Profession, Perform and to a lesser extent Craft.

I don't understand Clovenhoof's comment that a Craft skill cannot be a Profession skill. What about the NPC who runs the local smithy? Shouldn't he have Profession (Smithy)?

Or, maybe it's that I still don't understand the Profession skill. Is it a catch-all for things that can't be considered a Craft skill?

So, in a town, the NPC smith has a Craft skill while the baker next door to him has Profession (Baker)?

I cant imagine a similar situation coming up for profession (Farmer), or (Scribe).

Scribe, you've got me, but Farmer...how about a game situation where the PCs have to feed a lot of people? Let's say the PCs rescue 50 slaves from Stygia, and they hide out near Samara, in the shadow of the Misty Mountains, on the Ilbarsi River.

The GM could set up a situation where the challenge is keeping these people fed. Profession (Farmer) would probably be the skill to use if the PCs did it on their own.

Again...just being devil's advocate.

And perform... The worst of all. There is no logical reason for this to ever come up in a game, other than to make money, or just to say, "I'm entertaining people with my Lute."

Perform, I think, is easier to be a devil's advocate about. I've read more than one Conan story where some slave girl had to learn an exacting dance that was part of the spell to gate in a demon or some such horrible thing. Which story was it--I think it was a pastich novel--where the girls were raised like geisha with the highest honor to be the best at this dance, not knowing that it would lead to a horrible death.

In my opinion, all skills should be created equal.

I look at the skill choices, and it looks to me that the original D&D d20 designers were trying to pick those that are important to the average adventurer. There are a few, though, that are important to NPCs--catch-alls, like the profession skill. So, they got thrown in the mix.



Here's a question: The Profession skill is clear on how to use it to make money over a week. How then does the smith make money? Is there a similar throw we can make with the Craft skill to simulate how much money the smith has made over the week?

 

[Supplement Four]

Looking through the Pirate Isles book, which I haven't read and barely skimmed, I only see a few throws associated with Profession (Sailor).

I'm wondering if the Profession skill should be a derivitive skill, given to the PC for free, in a similar manner of other freebie skills--or maybe as Languages are given.

For example, every 5 ranks in Craft (Smith) gets you 1 free rank in Profession (Smith).

Or, if the Profession skill stays the way it is, make it a pre-requisite for certain Feats and certain positions--such as a Profession (Sailor) of X rank is needed to become Captain of a ship (and maybe that's already in the book--I dunno).

Just thinking out loud, here.






EDIT: From a purely game prospective, the Profession skill does look like its next to worthless. I scanned through the Fallen/Finest/Fiercest books to see it rarely mentioned, and it when it was, I could always see another way of implementing the idea in the game.

For example, Profession (Fence) in the Fallen book. Why does a Fence need that skill? He looks to me that he can be a Fence without it, using his Appraise and Gather Information skills instead.

A Fence would know the worth of his inventory (Appraise) and he'd know who to sell his stuff to (Gather Information). Keep those skills high, and you've got a Fence. You don't need the Profession skill.



I saw a similar occurence with the Perform (Virginity) skill in the Finest book. Why have that? I understand the point being made, but it seems that should be a footnote under roleplaying notes, not a skill--something that uses a valuable resource of the character's.





EDIT 2: Thinking on this further: Wouldn't the Profession skill be better as a Feat?

Continue my example above about the Fence. Appraise and Gather Information are important skills to this type of character. A Feat - Fence - could improve those things about a Fence, such as give a +2 bonus to Appraise and Gather Information.

A Feat - Sailor - could do the same thing, adding +2 to Climb and other sailor type skills, all the way down to Knowledge (Navigation).

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

I don't understand Clovenhoof's comment that a Craft skill cannot be a Profession skill. What about the NPC who runs the local smithy? Shouldn't he have Profession (Smithy)?

The Profession skill is clear on how to use it to make money over a week. How then does the smith make money? Is there a similar throw we can make with the Craft skill to simulate how much money the smith has made over the week?

Both of these have the same answer. The Profession, Craft, Perform and even tumble skills can all be used to make money using the same rules as profession. Its mentioned under each specific skills uses. So you don't take (nor have any reason to take) profession (Smith), the ability to act as a professional smith is already encompassed in Craft (blacksmith).

Scribe, you've got me, but Farmer...how about a game situation where the PCs have to feed a lot of people? Let's say the PCs rescue 50 slaves from Stygia, and they hide out near Samara, in the shadow of the Misty Mountains, on the Ilbarsi River.
The GM could set up a situation where the challenge is keeping these people fed. Profession (Farmer) would probably be the skill to use if the PCs did it on their own.

Thats not really the same thing though. In order to get anywhere, do anything, or survive any situation on a boat, you use profession (sailor). The minute you set foot on a boat, its your life and death skill. I don't need profession (farmer), or to hope that the local NPC's have it high, in order to survive walking through an aquilonian field.
Thats the essence of my dislike of those skills. In most instances, they are totally useless, but certain specific subskills, or certain classes using certain skills make them inordinately powerful.
Case in point. Nobody would say that Craft (Herbalism) or (Alchemy) are useless (infact I feel they are the most powerful skills in the game), the problem lies in the fact that points spent in them are way more useful than points spent in craft (wicker baskets). And that, infact Craft (Wicker baskets) and other minor craft, profession, and perform skills are only useful as a minor way to make a living... Which is something prettymuch any character should be able to do without spending points.

Perform, I think, is easier to be a devil's advocate about. I've read more than one Conan story where some slave girl had to learn an exacting dance that was part of the spell to gate in a demon or some such horrible thing.

In this example, they would be using perform (ritual), which is another of those inordinately powerful uses of an otherwise useless skill, as mentioned above. Its not really the game specific sub skills that bother me, those are usually worth the points (though, Herbalism might still be abit powerful).
Its that there is a clear and intrinsic situation where things like Profession (sailor), or Craft (weapons/armor) are demonstrably useful/necessary. As where the other profession/craft skills are only really useful to make money... At best I'd say, keep the useful subskills and don't make people drop points on making a living.

 

[Supplement Four]

Thats not really the same thing though. In order to get anywhere, do anything, or survive any situation on a boat, you use profession (sailor). The minute you set foot on a boat, its your life and death skill.

Does it have to be, though? Can't Climb and Rope Use be used for many of the tasks on a boat? Then, add some Knowledge skills for Navigation and what not?

Like Profession (Fence), is Profession (Sailor) really necessary? Isn't it redundant in many areas?

Can you think of a single situation where another skill in the game can't be substituted for Profession (Sailor) ?

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Actually. I lean the opposite direction. The ability to know how to tie a knot, or climb a mast, doesn't help you know how to work sails, where to point them, navigation at sea, how to make a ship slow down, how to steer it.
BUT I don't see how profession sailor logically functions within the rules of the profession skill...What are you doing with your boat, that only takes a few hours a day, for a week, and has such a small payout? Running coastal tours?
The way I see it, a Sailor skill makes sense. One could easily make that a separate skill, do away with Profession entirely (as well as all minor forms of craft, and perform), and just allow everyone to declare a single, mundane profession that their character knows, using a formula of 1d20+Character Level+relevant ability modifier, to ply ones trade during downtime.
....Actually I really like that. I'll probably use that in my next game.

 

[Supplement Four]

One could easily make that a separate skill, do away with Profession entirely (as well as all minor forms of craft, and perform), and just allow everyone to declare a single, mundane profession that their character knows, using a formula of 1d20+Character Level+relevant ability modifier, to ply ones trade during downtime.
....Actually I really like that. I'll probably use that in my next game.

I like that, too. Basically what is says is that there are some skills inherent to the specific class.

Therefore, I'd modify your rule a bit and say:
1d20 + Class Level + Ability Mod + Misc. Mods.

That way a Nomad 8/Pirate 1 is a novice, as he should be, while a Pirate 8/ Nomad 1 is a much better Pirate than he is a Nomad.

One of the things that attracts me to the Conan RPG is that the classes are weak, making sterotyping weak and individuals strong. This rule would strengthen classes a bit, but I can definitely see a use.

Any miscellaneous throw could be covered by this.

Call it a "Class Throw" or a "Class Check".

That way, you don't have a bunch of skills for various things like using the sails or navigating by the stars. The class throw can be a catch-all for stuff not otherwise covered by skills (but skills like Rope Use and Climb will always trumb the Class Throw).

So, if we meet a Commoner Farmer, instead of having a Profession (Farmer) skill, just use the Class throw.

If a PC Pirate needs to pilot his ship in a storm or run aground on some rocks, use the Class Throw. But, if he needs to run up the rigging during that storm, use the Climb skill.



Brother, I like that a lot, too. Good call.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Not really what I was talking about. I just meant that instead of profession skills. every player could just choose a profession and use the formula.
A player could say, "My, soldier is a trained blacksmith.", Or, "My Pirate is an amazing Lute player."
And during downtime they can ply that trade for money, using the formula of 1d20+Character level+the bonus of whatever skill most fits the profession. This roll should only be used in place of a profession roll to make money, and should certainly not be used for any situation that is at all dramatic.
Classes are not professions.

Also, I meant to say that the "Useful" applications of those skills.
Craft (weapons)
Craft (Armor)
Craft (Alchemy)
Craft (Herbalism)
Profession (Sailor)
Perform (ritual)
And any others you can think of, should still be separate skills, that you have to take points in. Its only the skills that are predominantly effective only to make money that should be on the table for the "Profession Template".

 

[Supplement Four]

Not really what I was talking about.

Oh... :shock: Well, I like what I thought you said, then!

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Well, in that regard. I'd be careful in how you did the Class roll system. If you start rolling skills into a classbased level check, I think you'd begin to find that nearly all skills could be done away with this way.
The question would become, "Where do you draw the line?" If you do away with the skill system entirely, then all thats left is a tactical combat system. I think the d20 skill system is one of its better qualities overall (which is not to say that it doesn't have its problems, but I accept that nothing is perfect).
Also, the more of the skills you roll into the class roll, the more of character individuality you do away with also. A characters skill choices are a major part of his customization. So the more things you cover with the all members of this class are equally good at this philosophy, the less each character of the same class looks unique.
Also, theres a lot more math to do there. In order to keep balance, you will need to reduce classes skill points on a roughly equal level to the number of skills you do away with.
One of the reasons I like the idea of limiting it to "Money Maker" skills is that it does away with most of those considerations. All the skills that are taken out, are the ones that had next to no impact on the game anyway. All of those skills are ones that I've never seen any single character put points in more than one of. Even if they considered doing so, there are far too many other useful skills they need to put points in. All the system I propose does is, at worst, give characters one more useful skill on their sheet.
Not that there's anything wrong with your idea, but it does have significantly more repercussions to the system and I'd strongly suggest thinking through how you're going to deal with them before you implement implement it.

 

[Supplement Four]

The question would become, "Where do you draw the line?"

As I stated above, I'd use it as one would Profession (Sailor)--for all those misc. tasks that don't have specific skills in the game.

If a skill in the game does apply, then it takes precedence (except some specific knowledge skills and, of course, the profession skill).

For example, Climb and Rope Use will always be used before a generic Pirate check.

The idea is to use the Class check as a generic "catch all" for a multitude of class-specific tasks that aren't important enough to have skills by themselves.

The GM could call for a Pirate Class check to get more speed out of the vessel in a ship-to-ship chase.

Or, let's say the GM wanted to call for a check that allows the character to tell how another ship is rigged: "That one isn't rigged for maximum speed," the Pirate says while his eye is stuck in the longlens, "she's ridin' high in the water, too--an empty hold. She must be slowin' for battle."

In one Conan novel, I read (I remember Leonard Carpenter wrote it, but I forget the title) the barbarian finding part of an old ship out in the desert. He picked up something, brushing away the dirt, and found a sextant type device. That could be a Pirate Class check right there--recognizing the device.





The general rule would be: If a skill in the game can be used, it takes the precendent (except, of course, those skills we're trying to replace like redundant Knowledge skills, Profession skills, and the like).

But, if the ship started sinking, and there's no specific skill to assign to a task, the GM can use the Class skill: "OK, the ship's been holed and its sinking. You can get down there and patch the, but it's a DC 10 Pirate Class check. If you fail, I'll give you one more try, but the ship will be half submerged with a second DC of 20."

I think that's a cool check.

I guess I made it up in mis-interpreting what you said! :wink:





EDIT: I'm not using this rule yet. I think you're right. It deserves a lot of thought before implementing it in the game. But I sure am intrigued by it.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Well, I don't think that will be too big of a hassle to work into the system. In the standard rules a situation like that would be handled by an ability check. And the problem with Ability checks is, most GM's set the DC's for them at the same level they would for a skill check, without accounting for the lower bonus ability checks have.
So really, doing it your way might make it less math on the GM. by adding ones level to an ability check, it makes it possible to pass one, while still making ones average bonus to the roll less than his skill bonus (by about 3 points).
It could work.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, I don't think that will be too big of a hassle to work into the system.

I agree it wouldn't be a hassel at all. I'm just always leery about changing vanilla rules. I constantly go back and re-think any house rules for fear of the Rule of Unintended Consequences.

Plus, I've been down the road before where I tried out a House Rule that my players grew to love, but as we play tested the rule, I became dissatisfied with it and went back to the vanilla rule. That's always bad form on my part to give the players something, the like it, then take it away.

Playtesting is, of course, the best way to test rules, though. I try never to add or remove stuff from the game without loads and days of constant thinking about the "what ifs".

 

[Supplement Four]

Synergy: well not really. Particularly for your example, there is no such skill as "Profession:Smith", because Smith is a Craft skill and nothing else.
Rule of thumb: everything that let's you _create_ something in a rather complicated process is a Craft skill. Whatever job is clearly not a Craft skill, can be a Profession. But no job can be both.

Evidently this isn't quite true. I'm working on my upcoming game this Wednesday, and I see the smith, Finn, on pg. 88 of Cities of Hyboria.

He's got Craft (weaponsmith) +15 and he's got Profession (smith) +12.

I'm not sure I've quite got a grasp on it, but, evidently, you can have both skills together. And, there must be some difference between them

Which leads me back to my question in the OP: If you've got Craft (weaponsmith) +15, shouldn't that work as a +2 Synergy bonus whenever your Profession (smith) +12 checks are made because of the quality of weapons you turn out?





EDIT: Oh, and what is Craft (domestic)? I see that Rutcrana, on pg. 89 of Cities, has that skill.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Oh, and what is Craft (domestic)? I see that Rutcrana, on pg. 89 of Cities, has that skill.

I have no idea. If it referred to housekeeping it should be Profession, not Craft.
But generally speaking, I don't give much about splat books anymore. I've seen just too many blunders in them. Which also applies for the Profession:Smith reference you cited. I'd just cross it out.
If anything, Profession:Smith _might_ cover how to run a smithy, i.e. all the parts that do not involve swinging a hammer. But it's rather redundant anyway.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

I agree. I don't put too much stock in the stats shown for NPC's in any RPG. They're usually full of bad math and rules mistakes.
In any case, It doesn't make any sense to take points in a craft, and then take the same thing as a profession. Craft already does everything that profession does, plus it lets you build things.
I would either ignore Profession (Smith), or change it to the more logical, Craft (Blacksmithing).