Question Suppression and "Allocated" dice

[Bede]

A unit is suppressed when a damage die is allocated to each of the figures in the unit in a single shoot action.

Only models in a fire zone may be allocated damage dice.

Therefore, a unit may not be suppressed unless each of the figures of the unit is within a fire zone in a shoot action.

Is that right?

If so, suppression is much less common then I thought. If the player is spreading his men out correctly, he should be able to avoid an entire unit being caught in a fire zone and the enemy will have to create additional fire zones.

Also, doesn't this mean that even if you did manage to catch 9 out of 10 figures in a unit in a fire zone and as long as that one last figure is out of LOS, the unit can't be suppressed?

Thanks

 

[Sgt. Scream]

LOS has nothing to do with suppression.

If you can keep your last model out of the FZ created upon your unit by your opponent then yes - if one model survives out of the FZ, the unit is not suppressed.

But I doubt you can achieve that without being out of command as your unit's leader and the squad members need to stay within command range. And those 'Auto' weapons and their nasty big FZ.... :twisted:

 

[Bede]

LOS has nothing to do with suppression.

Not specifically, but since you can't include a figure that's out of LOS in a fire zone, doesn't it mean that if any of the target unit's models are out of LOS the target unit can't be suppressed? (Because you couldn't allocate a damage die to all of the target unit's figures).

 

[hithero]

The suppession and dice allocation rules can be very confusing and the rules certainly could do with examples of targets in the FZ but out of sight.

I think the rule should be (and the way we play it) is that you can allocate dice to those that can't be seen, but these dice cannot harm the invisible target but can suppress them. This seems the logical conclusion as the spray of bullets is keeping the soldiers head down and out of sight.

However, I don't think the rules acually say this as they say a unit is suppressed if every model in the unit is allocated a Damage Dice (page 39 2nd para) and you cannot allocate a dice to a target you cannot see (page 17 4th para) so I believe Bede is actually correct in that if a unit model cannot be seen, it cannot be allocated a dice and therefore the unit cannot be suppressed if you Read As Written.

 

[Sgt. Scream]

It says in that 4th para:
(...)cannot draw LOS to the centre of the Fire Zone may not join in on the attack, whether or not they can draw LOS to any individual models within the Fire Zone.

The rules say you can't shoot if you cannot see both - centre FZ and a model.

IMO I still allocate damage dice that do not show a natural '1' to all models within the FZ. I can't allocate any damage (not speaking of a dice) if I do not see the target. I still believe they will keep their heads down, even if the bullets only punch holes in the wall next to them.

In the old rules, LOS didn't affect suppression. I can spray a wall of a house and its windows with lead to make sure no one shoots back out of it. Isn't that what cover/suppression fire is for??

 

[Bede]

ok, but what about the initial question?

If you can't get the entire target in a fire zone (regardless of whether each of the figures in the zone are in LOS) then you can't allocate a damage die to each of the figures in the unit.

Doesn't that mean you can't suppress the unit?

 

[Sgt. Scream]

@Bede

Yes, that would be correct.

But here's my question again: How can you spread your miniatures wide enough without losing command?

 

[hithero]

To paraphrase the entire sentance:

When you roll dice for your unit's shooting, you can only attack models completely or partially within this fire zone that are also within line of sight

"...also within line of sight." You cannot allocate dice on targets you cannot see and if you don't allocate a dice on all models then it can't be suppressed.

I agree however about the Command issue to a sense but it depends on where the commander is within the group (he may be out of sight) and the target model, so it is very possible that some models in a unit may be out of the FZ and within command.

For example: a couple of soldiers by a door are the only ones visable, the unit leader could be 3" back and the rest of the squad a further 3" back, making only those by the door casualties and those furthest away out of the FZ, this can happen a lot in built up area's.

Just to reiterate though; I do agree on how the rule should be played, but thats not as its written. This set of rules definately needed another set of proof-reading eyes.

 

[MongooseMatt]

A unit is suppressed when a damage die is allocated to each of the figures in the unit in a single shoot action.

Only models in a fire zone may be allocated damage dice.

Therefore, a unit may not be suppressed unless each of the figures of the unit is within a fire zone in a shoot action.

Is that right?

If so, suppression is much less common then I thought. If the player is spreading his men out correctly, he should be able to avoid an entire unit being caught in a fire zone and the enemy will have to create additional fire zones.

Also, doesn't this mean that even if you did manage to catch 9 out of 10 figures in a unit in a fire zone and as long as that one last figure is out of LOS, the unit can't be suppressed?


This is all correct - a full squad that has taken no casualties can be very difficult to suppress. Once it has been whittled down, it gets a lot easier (some morale rules built in right there ). This is, incidentally, one thing you have to consider when looking at detaching fire teams. The tactical flexibility is great, but you risk suppression that much sooner.
Thanks

 

[Sgt. Scream]

That makes it easy. So it is models I have LOS to only. Makes suppression weaker than I thought. :shock:

 

[hithero]

I'm even more confused now Mathew, so for example.

A squad has set up in a building along one wall (6 men).
One model has been placed further back out of sight. (1 man)
Does this now mean that the unit cannot be suppressed even if there are enough dice to allocate to all models in the unit as in this case 7?

 

[MongooseMatt]

If every model in the unit has a dice allocated to it, it is suppressed. If it doesn't, it isn't!

 

[Anonymous]

If every model in the unit has a dice allocated to it, it is suppressed. If it doesn't, it isn't!

So then if a model isnt in LOS then they cant get a dice allocated to right?

 

[hithero]

Like trying to get blood from a stone this is A yes or no answer to clarify would be appreciated Mathew, and if the squad in question cannot be suppressed then this is yet another serious flaw in the rules over common sense.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Like trying to get blood from a stone this is A yes or no answer to clarify would be appreciated Mathew, and if the squad in question cannot be suppressed then this is yet another serious flaw in the rules over common sense.

I am very sorry you feel that way. However, we have answered the question at least twice in this thread, plus given it space in the Player's Guide. I cannot agree that it is a flaw, serious or otherwise. YMMV.

 

[MongooseMatt]

If every model in the unit has a dice allocated to it, it is suppressed. If it doesn't, it isn't!

So then if a model isnt in LOS then they cant get a dice allocated to right?

Correct. He literally cannot be shot at.

 

[Bede]

@Bede

Yes, that would be correct.

But here's my question again: How can you spread your miniatures wide enough without losing command?

@Sgt. Scream,

When the firing weapon is auto, you're right, since that has a 6" fire zone. But there are many non-auto weapons of course.

 

[Anonymous]

If every model in the unit has a dice allocated to it, it is suppressed. If it doesn't, it isn't!

So then if a model isnt in LOS then they cant get a dice allocated to right?

Correct. He literally cannot be shot at.

Thanks.

 

[hithero]

Like trying to get blood from a stone this is A yes or no answer to clarify would be appreciated Mathew, and if the squad in question cannot be suppressed then this is yet another serious flaw in the rules over common sense.

I am very sorry you feel that way. However, we have answered the question at least twice in this thread, plus given it space in the Player's Guide. I cannot agree that it is a flaw, serious or otherwise. YMMV.

It's not a flaw that you can deliberately keep 1 model hidden to prevent any suppression? Suppression is a big and important part of the game and at a stroke it has been reduced to almost nothing, hiding 1 man at the back should not prevent his comrades from ducking down out of the way of incomming fire.

 

[Snicky]

It works both ways. while one player 'hides' a fig to prevent the unit from bein supressed, the other player can 'cover' an area knowing that it is too big for an enemy unit to keep a fig hidden, effectivly pinning them w/o even shooting. Thus each player can use the same rule to their advantage.
Also, another way a unit's effectivness can be degraded is that a unit becomes combat inefective when it reaches half strength, and has it's leader killed ( even if the leader is later replaced), which has happened more often in my games than suppression.

-snick