Question: Nishemani Corsair

Subzero001

Banded Mongoose
Hello Brain trust,
I'm thinking of using this Vargr Corsair in a POD campaign but she needs to be a bit bigger to fully engulf/capture 200dton ships jumping normally and 400+ ships with a jump net out the back partially engulf/storing the ship in bay. I know the new High Guard 2022 book is on its way, I was just wondering if I could get a stats for this variation of the ship. Thanks
 
To fully engulf anything but a *very specific* 200 ton hull, a capture ship needs to be enormous. This isn't rules, but it *is* geometry. A bay that can handle either a Beowulf or a Solomani Courier is likely a couple thousand tons, never mind the ship wrapped around it.

External grapples or a net are by far the better solution.
 
To fully engulf anything but a *very specific* 200 ton hull, a capture ship needs to be enormous. This isn't rules, but it *is* geometry. A bay that can handle either a Beowulf or a Solomani Courier is likely a couple thousand tons, never mind the ship wrapped around it.

External grapples or a net are by far the better solution.
Yup, ran into that awhile back when doing some plans and the size needed for an internal bay to hold a ship got multiplied.
 
I would think of incresing the size of the ship from 400dt which can capture 100 dt ships internally to a 500dt ship to capture 200dt ships internally and bigger ship partially internally and externally using a jump net for the extra. Since the ship would have adjustable hull "The primary users of this hull option are pirates and Q-ships that want to pretend to be something else. This is also useful when landing in cargo or docking bays of unusual shape or size." geometry shouldn't be an issue?
 
You have to increase the maneuver, power plant and Jump plus fuel. You wind up with about 670 tons of ship to maintain stats. An internal hangar requires 400 tons to hold a 200 ton ship.
If the captured ship is partially hanging out one end, that mass adds to the drag on M and J drives, needing an increase there as well as fuel.
 
and yet in Mongoose High guard 2022:
"A tool of corsairs and pirates throughout the Third Imperium and beyond, the Nishemani is infamous for devouring 100 ton ships whole and delivering them to criminal starports for refurbishing into ships that cannot be identified as the originals."

/ dtons req / cost
Docking Space (100 tons)11027.5
200 tons / 210? /
shouldn't require the upgrades per say, pregnent limping to jump range and homeport, just add battery's to give the extra jump energy required since were on a power point system now. My original thought is to use the power plant and jump drive of the pray if extending out of the ship in the jump net.
 
and yet in Mongoose High guard 2022:
"A tool of corsairs and pirates throughout the Third Imperium and beyond, the Nishemani is infamous for devouring 100 ton ships whole and delivering them to criminal starports for refurbishing into ships that cannot be identified as the originals."

/ dtons req / cost
Docking Space (100 tons)11027.5
200 tons / 210? /
shouldn't require the upgrades per say, pregnent limping to jump range and homeport, just add battery's to give the extra jump energy required since were on a power point system now. My original thought is to use the power plant and jump drive of the pray if extending out of the ship in the jump net.
Yes, if its already statted for the 200 dtons of volume in ship docking space, you don't ALSO pay for having that volume filled with a 100 dton ship. Empty or full, the engines have to move the volume (not the mass). Its no different than jumping with empty holds. The volume is still part of the jump field. Because Traveller physics :D

If you are essentially just grappling the ship to your ship, then you would have to treat your ship as the volume of both ships for engine purposes. Arkathan's example of a 200 dton ship would exceed the internal space of a corsair, so it would add to the volume of the corsair because that's not already included.
 
Yes, if its already statted for the 200 dtons of volume in ship docking space, you don't ALSO pay for having that volume filled with a 100 dton ship. Empty or full, the engines have to move the volume (not the mass). Its no different than jumping with empty holds. The volume is still part of the jump field. Because Traveller physics :D

If you are essentially just grappling the ship to your ship, then you would have to treat your ship as the volume of both ships for engine purposes. Arkathan's example of a 200 dton ship would exceed the internal space of a corsair, so it would add to the volume of the corsair because that's not already included.
If it was just increased the jump drive to a jump 3 for instance as the ship currently RAW stands it should be capable of Thrust 3 and Jump 3 on its own, Thrust 2 and Jump 2 while carrying a ship up to at least an extra 100 dtons (plus the 100dtons in the dock) or Thrust 1 and Jump 1 while carrying a ship up to at least an additional 400 dtons (plus the 100dtons in the dock). Unmodified it could carry a 200dton ship at thrust 2 and Jump 1.

If for instance the J2 drive was removed and a prototype H1 drive was installed then you have plenty of power to jump approximately the same size, (15 dtons < 25 dtons I add batterys for the empty manatory additional 5+dtons) as the J2 to wherever you really wished as long as you have the power points to do it i.e. jump 9 with a 200dton ship j8 with a 400dton ship etc...

These ships are going to be acting like the Vargar "the bloody eye gang" and using Zhodani tactics to irritate the Imperium and Aslan commerce in POD.

But I was using "A Nexus Linkage Device which allows up to nine of one type of components to be used together. It can work on jump drives, maneuver drives, and power plants, but not in combination. For instance, it can not link a maneuver drive and a power plant. The device employs an additive effect with distinct limits. E.g. three J-1 drives (J-1 + J-1 + J-1 = J-3) could be used to give a J-3 capability. A set of standardized fittings, designed alongside the standardized sizes of components. If, for example, two jump drives of size A are to be used on the ship, the Nexus Linkage Device sits between them and allows both of them to be used at once. This can be because one size (say, size A) is too small for a given ship design but the next size up (size B in this case) is too large, but 2 or 3 of the first size would be just right." idea from T5

In the Nishemani she has a 100dton space for the price of 110dtons used at 400dtons so it should reason that if I double the space to 200dtons internal it would require 220dtons approximately 500 dtons correct, not thousands of dtons to capture a 200dton ship which is the standard size floating around and the jump net would cover the volume part of the jump field. Now there are also 300 and 400 dton civ ships around as well so if I use the Nexus black boxes"described above" one for the jump drive and one for the power plant or just rely on battery's to supply the boost into jump since were on a power point system now.
 
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Sorry, I don't recall Nexus linked devices in my high guard rules, but I'm hardly an expert on ship design. I just use the jump drives of a given rating need to be this size. Size wise, 3 x J-1 is, if anything, bigger than 1x J-3, so sure.

The standard corsair is Jump 2 and 400 dtons. You want to add 110 dtons of docking space. So that would increase the size to 510 dtons. But now you need an additional 20 tons of fuel and larger drives. So we are probably going to end up with a 600 dton ship. And that's only because Mongoose allows for magic shape changing docking spaces that fit any shaped ship of a given volume. That's the rules, though, so no issue there.

400 dtons to start with.
+110 dtons for larger docking space.
+20 dtons for upgrading 400 ton Jump 2 to 600 ton Jump 3.
and then your maneuver drive has to be 50% bigger. Power Plant needs more power to run bigger engines. But then you need to increase the jump from from 20% of 400 to 30% of 600. So that's gonna put you over 600 dtons. So back to the calculator... Not gonna do all the math. But you see the point.

If you do jump nets, your drives will reduce in function, because that volume is in addition to the volume of your ship.
 
Vormaerin: I do see your point and some of that can be taken out of the cargo space bringing the 440 which mongoose shoehorned into 400 which I'm trying to make it viable as a commerce raider. I guess I'm use to 1st edition I guess, I will have to break out the calculator and crunch some serious math for all these modifications they have done. / sigh

I guess the easier way is to just do a jump one to empty space (Unmodified it could carry a 200dton ship with jump net at thrust 2 and Jump 1) and hand off the prey to a larger ship or maybe a jump boat and resupply from it. Thanks
 
The Corsair started at 400 dtons in Classic. MegaTraveller bumped several hulls up by 10%, and the Corsair was one of them at 440 dtons. Most subsequent editions returned to the 400 dton number.

As for Mongoose repeating the old Classic line about swallowing up a 100 ton ship, it was essentially impossible if you understood geometry back then, and remains impossible now. Mongoose chooses to gloss over gritty details in very specific places, and this is one of them.

I opted for the external grapple option when TNE introduced it with actual rules.
 
That example assumes you can fit any 100 ton ship into a 100 ton docking space (and a docking space only takes up 10% more tonnage than the ship it can hold). The assumption i make is that a docking space can only be used by the specific ship its designed to dock - NOT any random ship of the same tonnage. For a random ship, you'd need to use a full hangar, which needs 100% more tonnage than the ship it can hold.

So for me, if you want to engulf a random 200 ton ship, you need a 400 ton hangar, not a 220 ton docking space. (And engulfing a random 100 ton ship requires 200 tons, not 110 tons)


However, that's not formally the rules, just how I would build it myself.
 
That example assumes you can fit any 100 ton ship into a 100 ton docking space (and a docking space only takes up 10% more tonnage than the ship it can hold). The assumption i make is that a docking space can only be used by the specific ship its designed to dock - NOT any random ship of the same tonnage. For a random ship, you'd need to use a full hangar, which needs 100% more tonnage than the ship it can hold.

So for me, if you want to engulf a random 200 ton ship, you need a 400 ton hangar, not a 220 ton docking space. (And engulfing a random 100 ton ship requires 200 tons, not 110 tons)


However, that's not formally the rules, just how I would build it myself.
The flavor text of a docking space ("Normally, when a smaller ship or vehicle is included in the design of a larger one, it is installed in a
docking space, with barely enough room for crew and passengers to scramble aboard") implies that a docking space is for a particular craft, but that's not the way the actual rule is written. I agree that a hangar is the sensible way to go, but, yep, not the formal rules.
 
So for me, if you want to engulf a random 200 ton ship, you need a 400 ton hangar, not a 220 ton docking space. (And engulfing a random 100 ton ship requires 200 tons, not 110 tons)


However, that's not formally the rules, just how I would build it myself.
More like 3x, and even that isn't a guarantee.
 
Docking Spaces and even Hangars are specific to a carried craft.

Docking Facilities are generic:
MgT2 HG (2017), p60:
This kind of docking facility consumes three tons for every ton of the largest ship it is capable of handling or the total tonnage of ships it can handle at any one time (so, a 6,000 ton docking facility can hold ships totalling up to 2,000 tons).
For every ton they consume, docking facilities cost MCr0.25. They also need 1 crewman for every 100 tons.
 
Does it explicitly state that? agree it makes more sense. I think it's just implied, though, and then the corsair example contradicts that implication.
 
More implied or add this and that together than outright stated, but the space station hangars th at are capable of holding any ship of a certain tonnage are larger than regular hangars.

When it comes to the Corsair, perhaps the adjustable hull can help out?
 
More implied or add this and that together than outright stated, but the space station hangars th at are capable of holding any ship of a certain tonnage are larger than regular hangars.
I would say heavily implied, cemented by the explicit language in the Docking Facility.

The 10% extra for Docking Space means it has centimeters clearance, not more. It would be difficult to pack any other craft in there.
 
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