Question concerning magic

[Grimolde]

I'm working out which common, divine, and sorcery spells to assign to each of my 'Harn' cults, how many should each have?

The book has about 3 to 4 common, and 3 to 4 divine or sorcerous magics and around 6 to 7 skills. But I've got at least double that. I think I've gone a little overboard with it all.

What exactly does a cult do concerning the teaching of magics and skills, do they teach them all at the same time, or is the progression slower?

Thanks all

 

[duncan_disorderly]

What exactly does a cult do concerning the teaching of magics and skills, do they teach them all at the same time, or is the progression slower?

I should think that depends very much on the cult! (And, to an extent on the magic/skills in question).

If a cult has powerful and/or rare skills /magic it probably won't teach them to anyone who has just joined them. They will have to "prove themselves" first (This may be explicit where some skills are only taught to "rune level" characters)

A cult with many skills may limit the number that can be learned at one time, or require a minimum level in some skills before others are learned (so a member is not sent out with a dozen cult skills, but only a 10% chance in each). An entertainers guild might, for instance, only teach composition to someone who can play two instruments to at least 50%, and only teach play instrument to someone with a sing of at least 50%.

 

[Jujitsudave]

Harn! I'd say scrap the cults idea and even the magic system altogether. For sorcery, I'd say one skill for neutral magic, Fyrvia, Lyahvi, etc.....
Divine should use magic straight from the religions book converted to MRQII.
Forget about spirit magic. It doesn't really fit. I wouldn't use cults or even common magic though. It's a low magic world, so no magic is "Common". Cults are an idea unique to Glorantha and in my opinion, should not even be in the core book.

 

[Grimolde]

Excellent points

Thank you

 

[PhilHibbs]

Cults are an idea unique to Glorantha and in my opinion, should not even be in the core book.

What about the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Aztecs, they all had cults. Shamanic traditions like the native Americans might only have one cult per tribe, but different tribes would have different traditions and "magic". The Order of Hermes, the Rosicrucians (if they existed), the Knights Templar, the Teutonic Knights, the Moonies, these are all cults with their own rituals and beliefs, and none of them are Gloranthan. Many roleplaying settings have ignored this human tendency, and that's their loss in my opinion. It's probably a Tolkien thing, religion plays almost no part in LotR and magic is restricted to angelic beings, but mortal access to the supernatural or the transcendent will inevitably be channeled through some kind of organization or tradition.

 

[sdavies2720]

What about the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Aztecs, they all had cults. Shamanic traditions like the native Americans might only have one cult per tribe, but different tribes would have different traditions and "magic". The Order of Hermes, the Rosicrucians (if they existed), the Knights Templar, the Teutonic Knights, the Moonies, these are all cults with their own rituals and beliefs, and none of them are Gloranthan. Many roleplaying settings have ignored this human tendency, and that's their loss in my opinion. It's probably a Tolkien thing, religion plays almost no part in LotR and magic is restricted to angelic beings, but mortal access to the supernatural or the transcendent will inevitably be channeled through some kind of organization or tradition.

I agree. For me this has always been one of the real strengths of RuneQuest: An integration of society structures into the system itself without being a straightjacket.

As GM you have one more way to get the players to buy into the society -- their characters get something concrete for it. And you get a great tool for adding color to every part of your world.

Steve

 

[PhilHibbs]

Oh, Nehwon (Lankhmar) has always had cults, and that pre-dates D&D & RuneQuest, it even pre-dates Tolkien. The sorcerors in Nehwon are one-offs with no discernible cult structure though.

 

[Jujitsudave]

What about them? Of couse they had cults and various magical traditions (nice Order of Hermes reference!) without a doubt, but unlike Glorantha they were not quite a pivotal focus on the world. Of course their existance made impacts but by definition, cults are religious and idealogical sects that don't quite jive with everyone else. In Glorantha, myth is real. In Harn, it is not necessarily. It also depends on your definition of cult. It seems what they call "cults" in Glorantha are more like mainstream religious faiths. In Harn there are various faiths as well, some of which can be considered cults (Ilvir, Morgath, barbarian totems) and others that are well organized religions (Agrik, Peoni, Larani) and still others that are simply isolated to various races and cultures (Siem, Halea, Sarajin). For the most part, organizations and largely secular and although there is no separation of church and state, the liege lord is the ultimate authority. Finally, the biggest reason why cults should take a back seat is because simply a majority of people are more concerned with self-preservation rather than adherence to a core set of cult-errific principles and couls care less about the politics that shape the world.

I take one thing back though, spirit magic could be used now that I think about it. The Harn religions book details the racially Jarinese barbarians and their various forms of ancestor and spirit worship. This could ideally be used as spirit magic, but with a more Celtic bent than a Native American one as detailed by default in Runequest and Glorantha.

 

[DamonJynx]

I'm no historian and I freely admit to being ignorant in regards to a lot of stuff posted in these forums, particularly the multitude of games and settings you guys have played.

I like Cults, particularly the Elric ones. I do agree though that the "Core" rulebook is far too Glorantha specific for my liking and agree with Dave they should be more of a generic toolkit, however they do serve as an excellent example of how to structure a cult *edit* for gaming purposes *edit*.

IMO ALL, I'll say that again, ALL religions are cults if you define a cult as:

• 
  cult
     [kuhlt] Show IPA
  –noun
  1.a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
  2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
  3.the object of such devotion.
  4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
  5.Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
  6.a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
  7.the members of such a religion or sect.

so they would be applicable in any setting where there are religions or similar beliefs. Sure, they may need some re-working and a facelift, but...
your Runequest will vary....

 

[Jujitsudave]

I also believe that when detailing cults or religions, if you will, Glorantha's methodology is second to none. As this is Harn that he wants to detail, I'd suggest....

Divine: Use the same spells as detailed in the Harn Religions only convert them. Otherwise, use the rules as written. The Divine needs little changes. Each faith would be a separate Pact.

Sorcery: This one is trickier, but I don't believe that I would use the sorcery rules as written as I don't really don't think the power level of sorcery fits Harn. I'd try to shape it match common magic with the spells listed in Harn Magic. From there, I'd make Neutral one skill and the various other magic schools as other skills. I would also drop manipulate and have it dependent on the level of of the skill for a definate progression of amounts of spells as well as power level.

Spirit Magic. I'm rather ignorant about the intricasies of this and i'm not qualified to say how it should be screwed with. It could have a place among the barbarian tribes of Harn.

 

[Verderer]

I fully intend to use cults in my campaign which is based on various d20 sourcebooks. One of them is the Book of the Righteous which presents a balanced and interesting pantheon and mythology for my campaign. So I will re-create the various churches and and cults in there in RQ cult form. To me this is a useful way of organizing the various churches and organisations into meaningful and practical entities. So cults are a tool to handle these.

I don't much care to ponder about the semantics of the word cult, my players won't actually encounter that word too much. But suffice to say I use the word in a very broad sense ie. church or a religious faction. And I will include into these cults even guilds and other factions which have some mythological or magical factor to them. For example, a wizards' guild is not just a magical gentlemen's club, they have their motivations and myths and so on. Cults are a useful tool in this sense, because you need to think of themes and motives for these organisations, it's not just about available spells, but you have to figure out what they believe in and what motivates them, so a plain wizard's guild becomes something more interesting and active.

I haven't decided yet whether I will include mythic resonance thingy or questing in full, or even runes as such, but I just might. Again, these might be useful tools to handle priest/paladin/magus challenges.

Anyways, in our Harn campaign where I was a player, religion played pretty important part. Our faiths did affect how we behaves, for example my Ilvirian carpenter was very different in his ways from that Peonian priest. And everybody hates those Agrikan bastards...Are Agrikans so nefarious because they're simply evil gits, or does their religion not make them so? But YMMV.

 

[PhilHibbs]

IMO ALL, I'll say that again, ALL religions are cults if you define a cult as:

A religion could be an entire pantheon, whereas a cult would be one deity or aspect within that. For example, the Olympian gods as a pantheon and could be described as a single religion, whereas Apollo had his own cult or cults. The synonymity between religion and cult comes with monotheism where a single religion is a single cult, unless you get down to the level of monastic orders.

*edit* Verderer, you're right, this is just semantics. Cult, religion, same thing. I think Greg chose to use "cult" and "pantheon" because lots of people are turned off by the word "religion".

 

[sdavies2720]

...*edit* Verderer, you're right, this is just semantics. Cult, religion, same thing. I think Greg chose to use "cult" and "pantheon" because lots of people are turned off by the word "religion".

What's weird is my players were turned off by the word "cult", but I didn't realize for a long time that it was the reason they weren't aligning or interacting with the cults. They went far out of their way to avoid religious entanglements.

I had planned to have the campaign revolve around inter-cult rivalries. Instead it's been very different, with a much lower magic level as a result.

Steve

 

[PhilHibbs]

If you look at the integration of religion and society it has generally been the rule that if you aren't a fervent and devoted member of one of the accepted religions of the place and time, then you are some kind of dangerous freak that probably would benefit from a good burning, or exile if you're lucky. I was always deeply unsatisfied by the genericlerics in D&D, and Deities and Demigods didn't really make much difference in that regard. I think later editions did give clerics some kind of religious distinctiveness. The integration of religion into the game for all characters is one of the things that I like most about RuneQuest. *Edit* Although, it is now apparent to me that that might be one of the things that people see as "Gloranthan", whereas I just see it as "realistic".

 

[Da Boss]

I'm working out which common, divine, and sorcery spells to assign to each of my 'Harn' cults, how many should each have?

The book has about 3 to 4 common, and 3 to 4 divine or sorcerous magics and around 6 to 7 skills. But I've got at least double that. I think I've gone a little overboard with it all.

What exactly does a cult do concerning the teaching of magics and skills, do they teach them all at the same time, or is the progression slower?

Thanks all

I had the same thought when looking at my own cults - see below but I don't think it matters if it works for your world. I take it that the Cult teaches the skills as approrpiate to the needs of the Cult, its leaders and the followers - usually in that order?

Bone Wardens
The Wardens of the Elf Bone Clan are able to easily see and communicate with the spirits of their ancestors. They act as interpreters and diplomats between the living and the dead as well as leading the dead into battle against enemies of the Clan.

Runes: Death, Spirit,
Ancient Magic: Detect Bone, Detect Enemy, Detect Magic, Fanaticism, Fate, Hand of Death, Second Sight,
Divine Magic: Amplify, Behold, Consecrate, Exorcism, Fear, Sever Spirit, Soul Sight,
Cult Skills: Ancient Magic, Lore (Bone Warden), Oratory, Perception, Spirit Walking (*),

(*) Wardens with the Spirit Walking Skill are able to use the abilities listed for both Followers and Spirit Worshipers on p138.

Daughters of Tyria
The Priestesses of the Goddess Tyria are exclusively females of the Wolfen tribes, worshipping her in complex dance forms. They guide the tribes in peace and selected daughters are trained in a unique art of war, combining their evasive dances with slick attacks and lunges.

Runes: Fertility, Motion,
Ancient Magic: Bestial Enhancement, Bladesharp, Boon of Lasting Night, Coordination, Entertainers Smile, Feast, Heal, Mobility,
Divine Magic: Aphrodisiac, Channel Strength, Consecrate, Eclipse, Heal Wound, Regenerate Limb,
Cult Skills: Acrobatics, Ancient Magic, Dance, Lore (Tyria), Perception,

Spark of Life
This Spire Cult promotes understanding of the sacred spark of life and the fire within, giving members the ability to withstand the worst of any environment and recover from seemingly mortal wounds. They are also on occasion to be found traversing the Great Desert to test their skills against the harsh environment, but are no more welcomed by the Elf Clans than any other human.

Runes: Fertility, Fire,
Ancient Magic: Cauterise, Endurance, Firearrow, Fireblade, Heal, Ignite, Light, Warmth,
Divine Magic: Channel Strength, Consecrate, Cure Disease/Poison, Elemental Summoning (Salamander), Evergreen, Heal Body, Heal Wound, Regenerate Limb,

Cult Skills: Ancient Magic, Lore (Spark of Life), Resilience, Healing, Survival,

Voice of Death and Darkness
A strange and forbidding cult whose members are able to manipulate and control the dead and the darkness they often inhabit. As one rises in the ranks, a cult member becomes increasingly reluctant to reveal their true visage and often remain hooded and cloaked whenever possible. A few even go so far as to remain in full armour whenever they venture out into public, and have ornate masks crafted to shield their faces even when in the privacy of their own home.

Runes: Darkness, Death,
Ancient Magic: Arcane Mark, Boon of Lasting Night, Chill, Demoralise, Hand of Death, Spirit Bane,
Divine Magic: Behold, Consecrate, Eclipse, Elemental Summoning (Shade), Fear, Resurrect, Sever Spirit, Soul Sight, Spirit Block,
Cult Skills: Ancient Magic, Insight, Lore (Voice of Death and Darkness), Oratory, Perception,

 

[DamonJynx]

Phil, I understand what you're getting at with the Pantheon vs. Single Deity comments, but from a gaming perspective, both could easily have cults associated with them.

In Elric there is the general veneration of Chaos, Law and the Balance, which to me would signify worshiping, well at least paying lip service to all the deities in the Chaos and Law Pantheons - remembering that a Pantheon is simply a collection of God's with somewhat in common.

In the D&D Eberron world there is a Pantheon that is worshiped as a whole and individually.

 

[Simulacrum]

The reference to Greek Pantheon vs the Cult of Apollo throws up some interesting questions. Since Greek and Roman religious practices - which share a lot of common themes but also have their differences - are the basis for the way religion is modeled in AoT, I spent a lot of time thinking this over. Of course neither Greek or Roman religion were static over centuries of history, and to a large extent they also merged and absorbed foreign deities, cults and practices.

In simplistic terms the worship of the Greek Pantheon is something that defines you as Greek - so that's the first point (which I guess is obvious) - it's culturally defined, and culture-defining. And it is not important whether you believe the same myths or metaphysical ideas, but that you follow common rituals that enforce common social rules, norms and practices. all this happens without being a member of a cult, except in RQ/Glorantha terms, as a lay member who knows they should pitch up at important rituals.

The second point is that joining a cult is an expression of commitment to a particular deity, and a reliance on that deity for special favors. Or, more rarely, you have to "join" a cult to fulfil a certain role in society. In the ancient world most people are not Intitiates of a cult in the sense given in RQ and Glorantha, only those who have a specific personal reason or desire to do so. Clearly in a fantasy game where magical power is genuinely on offer, the attraction of joining a cult, or devoting oneself to a deity, is objectively more attractive.

So for AoT I went with the following model - which I emphasise only applies in all its specifics to one key culture:

a) A new common skill, Rites (Own) governs your familiarity and application to your cultural religion/pantheon/tradition
b) New deities can become part of that pantheon or tradition from time to time, in the same way as Romans would use "evocatio" to summon the gods of their enemies into their pantheon, create a new deity, or just import a new deity from abroad
c) Individuals can devote themselves to a deity and gain access to divine magic, without going through a cult
d) there are different kinds of cult - from a culture-wide "emperor cult", to public cults that are supported by the state in order to ensure a deity is properly honoured and provides benefits to society, to mystery cults that might have some unique rite, magic or miracle, to family and community cults that are more social in character and do not emphasise - or even have access to - divine magic

Whereas Glorantha is modelled around myth and cult, AoT is modelled around human culture and society, and is more about the intrusion of magic and religion that actually has an effect into recognisable real world social issues and struggles. There are points at which you can argue this amounts to the same thing, but the starting points are very different and the tone is therefor very different.

 

[Ultor]

I've been contemplating Pantheon worship for my long-term homebrew project and I think Simulacrum has exactly the right approach - you worship then pantheon, but can specialize in an individual deity, like Augustus had Apollo as his patron.

When I was running Chaosium Runequest I actually ran what is now called the Storm Tribe this way (as the Lightbringer Pantheon) - several divine spells from each of the deities were available to all Lightbringer worshipers, but the more powerful were available only to those with a patron deity eg Resurrection was only available to those who had taken Chalanna Arroy's vows and worshipped her as per Cults of Prax, but all other pantheon spells (except the damage-causing ones, ruled out by the vows) were still open to them.