Question about the center of a fire zone

[retaf33c]

When is it OK to select open ground as the center of a fire zone?

My opponents believe it to be OK to target open ground in order to create a fire zone to "snipe" specific models or to avoid catching friendlies in the fire zone.

Example 1: Enemy tank wants to eliminate a single technical in cover. If the technical is the center of the fire zone, a "friendly" trooper will be in the fire zone and the closest model to the shooter. So my opponent picks a point in open ground 5.5 inches to the side of the technical so the fire zone only catches the technical. In firing all his guns in a single shoot action only registering a single hit from his main gun. Since it is a 7, D10 +4 makes it an 11 and therefore a kill on the technical. If the technical was the center of the fire zone, the friendly would have taken the main gun hit.

Example 2: My Fedayeen has their two RPGs in the rear of the unit. Several models in the front of the unit are in LOS of the firing unit. However, my opponent fires at open ground towards the rear of the unit so that it just catches my two RPGs in a way that they are now the closest models to the firing unit. Both are killed.

Are firing units required to target a model in a unit first, then only allowed to use open ground if more models can be placed in the fire zone?

What about spots between two units?

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

you can select any point on the ground within range and LOS to be the centre of the fire zone at any time.

 

[rjandron]

When is it OK to select open ground as the center of a fire zone?

It can be selected at any time as specified by the rules--at least that's how I read it.

Example 1 is appropriate. Example 2, however, would require the RPG gunners to be in line of sight of the shooting unit--and in this case, the MEA squad would likely block LOS to the RPGs. According to the rules: "Models not in the same unit (i.e. the firing unit) can block or obscure Line of Sight."

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

yeah, looking at example 2 there may be LOS issues, as you can only assign dice to targets in the Fire Zone that you can see form the firing unit.

 

[retaf33c]

Actually, the shooting unit had LOS to almost everyone in the unit; but that raises an interesting point.

I would assume that as long as models in front are not in base to base, then it will be possible to draw a LOS to models behind them. Size 1 models have a tough time blocking LOS to other models.

 

[The Old Soldier]

While not "as Written", use a string from the firing models to the models behind the front models. If the string passes through the bases of the models in front then there is no LOS to the ones in the rear.

Just remember that FZ can only be placed, if at least one firing model can see at least one enemy model, and then the FZ can only be placed from that models LOS to a point on the ground he can see that covers the enemy model he can see.

Know it sounds like a mouthful, but easy to use.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Actually, the shooting unit had LOS to almost everyone in the unit; but that raises an interesting point.

I would assume that as long as models in front are not in base to base, then it will be possible to draw a LOS to models behind them. Size 1 models have a tough time blocking LOS to other models.

Yeah, but if LOS even clips the base of an intervening model they'll gain obscured.

 

[retaf33c]

I guess I'm didn't ask my question properly.

If I remember the rule properly (unfortunately, I don't have a copy handy) it says something like a point on the ground can be used if it allows more enemy models to be caught in the fire zone.

By selecting open ground about 4 inches behind and to one side of the unit, there were only 3 in the fire zone, my two gunners and the leader. So any hits/kill would have come from the three I was trying to protect with human ablative armour. However, if he had selected a model in the unit, he would have easily covered almost everyone in the unit. But I would have been able to remove riflemen first as they would have been closer to the shooter.

At no time was LOS a question. The unit was in the open but benefited from obscuring terrain.

In the games I've played we are rarely shooting at models. More often shots are at a point on the ground so only leaders or gunners are in the fire zone or so that they are closest to the shooter of all the models in the fire zone and so they have to be removed first. This is how folks are getting around not being able to pick off leaders or high value targets without having snipers.

I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the way the game is intended to be played. I would understand better if the open ground is within the area of the unit, but it is sometimes 4-5 inches away from the closest model.

And what about shooting at a technical or other single model. I had a situation where my technical was within 3 inches of an enemy unit. Since there were no other MEA close to the technical, shooting at open ground clearly would not have included more MEA in the fire zone, so why would he be allowed to target open ground? However, in doing so, he was able to exclude friendlies from being hit. But the rule doesn't say you may target open ground to avoid hitting your own troops.

I appreciate the responses up to now as they do bring up valid points, but they were not an issue in the example I gave. I am concerned that the game is moving to targeting models as the exception because judicious placement of a fire zone can kill a leader even though more models can be targeted if the center of the fire zone is placed on a model within the unit.

I believe the rule is trying to say that you must first target a model in the unit assuming you have LOS. If you don't have LOS, then you can't kill any model in the unit anyway. Then and only if you can cover MORE models by moving the center of the fire zone to open ground are you permited to do so.

Also, if LOS works both ways, i.e. if I can see you, then you can see me, then isn't it true that since a model in one unit cannot block the LOS of a model in the same unit, then when the unit is fired open, models in front don't block LOS to models in the same unit behind it?

 

[rjandron]

Here's the exact text of the rule in question:

Before you can shoot at an enemy unit, you must have a Line of Sight to the intended targets. In all cases, Line of Sight is traced as a straight line from the centre of each of the firing models to the centre of what is called the Fire Zone (this need not be an enemy model, and can in fact be open ground, if it is advantageous in fitting more enemy models within the Fire Zone).

My reading is that a player can put the fire zone anywhere they want as the centre of the fire zone does not need to be an enemy model. All the text that follows is in the form of an example, rather than a rule.

Your opponents, who choose to place fire zones so they catch only one or two targets in the fire zone to snipe at high-value targets will find this a less-than-effective tactic. While he's trying to take out your leaders and gunners, you should be very quickly bringing him down below his shatter point.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

there's also the question of whether or not they could actually see the point they fired at - if they specify a point that's blocked by your own models, you can start quibbling, but down that road lies rules lawyering and irratation.

As rjandron says, it's a tactic with limited scope - by trying to pick off special weapon units and squad leaders, he's not shattering or supressing you, and as a tactic it's easy to counter by putting a couple of men at the back of the squad instead of the front. And if you're playing MEA (it's not that hard to bolster your numbers for cheap

 

[retaf33c]

Actually it worked out very well. He quickly took out my ability to kill his armour. Even though he caught 2 or 3 models in the fire zone, he could still suppress my infantry units.

He kept all his armour in cover so his target values were 9 for the transport and 10 for the tank. Odds were that the regular infantry wasn't going to hurt them so he concentrated on eliminating the gunners from my Fedayeen first. The Fedayeen did kill one transport before they lost their gunners. Once the gunners were gone, he took out a couple more for insurance. I ended up with just the leader and two riflemen.

My technicals were able to take out almost all his ground troops and his FAV, however, he kept one 10 man unit in his transport. So without my gunners I had no way of cracking open the last transport. So his tank and remaining transport were able to take their time killing what was left. I was not able to get my last three Fedayeen close enough to possibly charge the transport to place IEDs.

I maxed out on gunners and fired them every turn and only managed to kill one transport with them. When I did hit, he made his saves.

 

[cordas]

Not much is going to help when the dice go against you..... His tactics where valid from what you have said, you now need to alter yours to counter what he is doing. Use terrian and buildings and other units to he can't cherry pick your squads to remove those important guys. If there isn't enough terrian on the field to do this then I would suggest putting more on the board...

We have had numerous debates regarding the efficacy and effincency of sniping in both BF:Evo and SST:Evo and have come to the conclusion that it might be valid on occasions but they are going to be fairly few and probably far between.