Question About Balancing Combats In RuneQuest

Halfbat said:
If all else fails, Hero Points end up being useful, here, to allow the players to just avoid death by a smidgeon.

Amen to that! These are sooo important to prevent that 'sudden death' event that can happen in any RQ game, and IMO a really good addition to the ruleset. There's nothing heroic about being killed in the first round of combat by a lucky critical hit from a spear wielding trollkin!
 
You're right - combat in RuneQuest is very dangerous, especially compared to D&D. This isn't really a disadvantage, it's just the way the system works. In RuneQuest the smart thing to do is to avoid fighting wherever possible and, if you must fight, get the drop on the other guy and run the moment things look bad. In D&D of course, heroic battle against impossible odds is the order of the day.

Since you're approaching this from a storyteller's perspective, you understand that some media are more suited to certain story types than others. Likewise, RuneQuest and D&D are suited to different stories. My advice is to think what shape your story is going to be and pick the system appropriately.

(And if you do choose D&D, might I recommend some of our wonderful d20 supplements?)
 
The lethality of RQ is one of its selling points. MRQ is actually less lethal in my opinion than its predecessors, but the prospect of accidentally annihilating your campaign is a very real one.
However, it creates good gameplay. The practiced routine that everyone knows, of what to do when someone goes down with a bad head/chest/abdomen hit, is not a mile away from the kind of decision making that goes on in real combat. Experienced parties know who the first aiders are, and where the healing is to be found. It's like knowing where to find the field dressings and the morphine shots. This lethality gets people into RQ, it doesn't seem to put them off. And rather than feeling invulnerable at high level, as per some games, you just tend to feel confident, which is much better.
New characters are in serious danger, but experienced characters (or experienced players) know how to survive most situations, and learn to recognise when to bug out and when to stay and fight. Lethality is a good thing in Runequest, and will help create the right amount of fear/caution and tension, especially when players become attached to their characters...
 
listlurker said:
Seriously though, the problem I'm seeing with the MRQ rules right now is that any character in combat, regardless of level, equipment or ability, can die outright with a single bad dice roll.

Randomness and spontaneity are what makes RPGs entertaining for a Games Master -- they're not entirely scripted or predictable.

But, as a GM, I need to have a general sense of which way the tide of battle is turning, so that I can revise on the fly if the worst occurs.

MRQ combat seems so random and so spontaneous (so realistic, if you like) that I can see entire sessions -- indeed entire plotlines -- being fatally derailed by a single bad dice roll, more often than not.

LL
You have less to worry about than you think. Oldtime RQers are full of stories about the random lethalness of combat compared to other systems - usually D&D. MRQ is the least lethal RQ system yet.

Consider the stereotypical "my hero was killed by a spear to the head from a trollkin" and consider the stats.
Lets say hero is 100% weapon skill, has 6 AP of armour. Lets say the mook is 40% with a spear and is doing 1d8 damage. Then you want the mook to critical, the hero to miss his parry and the mook to roll a head shot 19-20 on d20. The odds against this happening are:
4/100*5/100*2/20 ie 40 in 200000 or 1/5000 times. Even then the mook does precisely 2 points of damage. If the mook then makes a successful athletics test and rolls an 8 for damage, it can do enough damage to cause a serious wound (that's probably athletics of 40% *1/8 = 5% chance).

Basically, random death in RQ was always fairly rare but in MRQ it, for all intents and purposes, doesn't happen.

Even if a hero is facing random death he can spend a HP to either downgrade a major wound or re-roll a die.

For instance, back in the old days I ran Dragonlance twice using RQIII. I used hero points and the occasional fudge and not one character died out of turn due to a dice roll.

In major climatic battles, a hero or villain can take a crippling blow as the very first strike of combat but normally that is not the case and even if it is the case you have HPs to avoid it and plot devices up your sleeve to work around it. Or, sometimes, you let the dice have their head and the story goes somewhere expected. It's somewhat like being a screenwriter who gets told that on day 3 of a shoot the lead actor broke his leg and now you need to rewrite the next 20 pages.
 
You do have hero points to take the edge off. Make sure your players use them!

But yes, the fatality of combat means that when swords come out, its business time. Resorting to violence is a pretty big deal, because a lucky blow can indeed leave you bleeding in the dust.

1 hit kills are rather rare in MRQ though, as opposed to earlier editions, but 2-3 good hits will most likely send you reeling.

Make sure they buy up their resilience skill too :)
 
The randomness inherient in the game can pose an obstaclle. It sort of depends on just how story driven you want to run things. The randomness can also help to inspire a GM in new ways too.

It's hard to say if MRQ will suit your style of play without actually seeing you and your group actually gaming. Differernt gamers like differernt types of play. Some people love dungeon crawsl, and being sent from place to place by the story. Others don't like th be led round by the nose and prefer to have a impact in the direction that the campaiagn follows.

One thing to watch out for is that players usually want to be active participants who can have an effect on the outcome of the adventure,. If a GM is too dedicated to following a storyline, thing don't go well. Basically, if the players can make a difference, then they will get frustrated. THat is the big difference between RPGs and other forms of fiction.


One thing that might help, is that you, as the GM, are the one who works up the stats for the NPCs. You are also the one who presents the NPCS in the adventures. THis gives you a lot on control over just how much of a challenge any given encounter will turn out to be. This lets you fine tune things, allowing you to "force" events and outcomes much the way a stage magician does. You can stack the deck, use misdirection, and any othet trick you can think off to help guide things along a certain path without looking like you are forcing things.

As others have mentioned, giving out a few more hero poinbts can help to prevent or at least mitigate the occasional "unlucky hit" that might dirupt a storyline.

Just be careful with how much you do to enforce the storyline. In addtional to the desire to have some control over thier characters and the coruse of events, players also want to feel challenged. If the players think that they are not being challenged they will get bored. The key word is think.


No matter what you do, there will always be some uncertainty to the outcome of any encounter, thanks to the dice, and the free will of the players. Ambushes can be lethal, don't ambush your group too often if you want them to live, or at least make the ambushes bad shots. Tactics and planning go a long way, and players have a funny way of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. I once wiped out a group pf experienced RQ characters with a bunch of wimpy Trollkin. The Trollkin were holed up in a house and the players just diided to try a frontal assault. Some of the group were taken out by missile fire on the way up to the door. The others were taken out when the group moved back after discovering that the door was barred from the inside. Others got picked off trading missile fire, not good since the PCs were standing out in the open while the Trollkin were shooting out if windows and had cover. The PCs were so embarassed at being driven back, that the remants did a second frontal attack where they finally fell under a hail of (sling) bullets. Made all the more shameful since no one bothered to recon the area, and so failed to notice that there were no windows on one side of the house, or that there was a hole in the back wall of the house. Naturally, that encounter was a disastrous setback for the storyline of my campaign.Yet, had I done anything to change the outcome, the effects would have been even more of a disaster.


So in the end it boils down to just how heavily plotted is the storyline for your adventures, and how much can the group divert from the plot without disrupting things, an then hoping that the group doesn't do something dumb and unexpectedly suicidal.
 
This is a great thread, with lots of good advice. I'd like to throw in a few points.

One of the great things about RQ has always been the NPCs really are Characters. They can have all the same stats, combat options and magic as the players and more besides. Have the enemy use a few of the tactical options that RQ makes possible, such as using magic to enhance their weapons and defences, use some cool magical effects such as darkness magic for Trolls, or chaotic magic for Broo. Every character in RQ can have a few points of personal magic, so make sure the player characters all have a few points of magic themselves they can use.

The potential dangers of the system are, as has been said, one of the great advantages of th system because it heightens the tension. However you can do a lot to mitigate the dangers. Make sure there are NPC healers available, perhaps provide some on-use healing magic to the party.

In one game I ran years ago the party cleared out an abandoned Chalana Arroy temple taken over by Scoripon men. The ghost of the murdered High Priest gave them a staff that would summon him once only to provide lots of high-powered healing. The players didn't actually use it for ages and ages because they always found other ways to save each other, but the option was always there. Eventually they went on a suicide mission knowing that they could use the staff to pull their fat out of the fire at the last minute. Actually one of the characters still dies that time, but without the staff they'd have all been toast. Still, it was a dramatic event and they went into it voluntarily. I don't the player who lost the character never regretted it because they all knew they were taking a risk. Still, all that time if the party had had a run of bad luck, they would have had the staff to get them out of it, so it acted as a back-stop without actually reducing the tension.

Later as you and the players learn the system you'll learn how to gage the dangers and how to prepare for them.


Simon Hibbs
 
atgxtg said:
I once wiped out a group pf experienced RQ characters with a bunch of wimpy Trollkin. [... list of head-burying-in-arms-actions-by-the-PCs...]. Made all the more shameful since no one bothered to recon the area, and so failed to notice that there were no windows on one side of the house, or that there was a hole in the back wall of the house.
::sigh:: (and :lol: actually). No matter _how_ easy a GM makes it for the PCs to survive if they excercise just a teensy, tiny bit of care, sometimes there is nothing a GM can do to prevent them killing themselves.
 
Halfbat said:
atgxtg said:
I once wiped out a group pf experienced RQ characters with a bunch of wimpy Trollkin. [... list of head-burying-in-arms-actions-by-the-PCs...]. Made all the more shameful since no one bothered to recon the area, and so failed to notice that there were no windows on one side of the house, or that there was a hole in the back wall of the house.
::sigh:: (and :lol: actually). No matter _how_ easy a GM makes it for the PCs to survive if they excercise just a teensy, tiny bit of care, sometimes there is nothing a GM can do to prevent them killing themselves.


Oh but that was sooooo frustrating. I once saw the same group of players get so scared of a foe that they pulled off an awe inspiring, near flawless offsensive, where they took down all the enemy in under 30 seconds (real time) while not getting a scratch.

The hardness thing for me to try and factor in, was figuring out what the players were going to be like on any give session--average, stuipd, or special forces, and then try to write something that would provide an appropiate challenge.

Most of the "casualties" in my campaigns were due to a player acting far, far, stupider that I had anticipated. Like the guy who opened up the container of biological toxin to look at it and make sure the NPC wasn't pulling a fast one on him. There just no way to anticipate that level of stupidity.
 
Like the guy who opened up the container of biological toxin to look at it and make sure the NPC wasn't pulling a fast one on him. There just no way to anticipate that level of stupidity.

Ha ha ha! That's great! :lol:
 
Rasta said:
Like the guy who opened up the container of biological toxin to look at it and make sure the NPC wasn't pulling a fast one on him. There just no way to anticipate that level of stupidity.

Ha ha ha! That's great! :lol:

The part that really got me what that he did it after the group had spent 20 minutes explaining to him the reason why that wasn't such a good idea. It wasn't like it was a momentary laspe, or impulse decision. Plus the fool wouldn't know what it was supposed to look like, in the first place. Literally the only way he'd know would be if it killed him! :?: It was like wartching Wylie E. Coyote jumping up and down on the plunger to figure ouut why his bomb didn't explode.


And I had thought the guy who lotted the dragon's cave while it was out hunting for food wasn't bright.... :roll:

Or the guy who tired to get the police to raid some place for illgal drugs, based on his word as a spy...for a foreign power...an unfriendly foreign power.

Or the one who shot poisoned arrows into melee-and hit his ally-with the ONE posion that the guy had told him not to use, as it was the one that he didn't have the antitdote for.

Or the guy who didn't want to injure the samruai in a misunderstanding that turned violent, so he aimed at, hit, and broke, said samurai's katana.
 
I thought I'd jump in here. I'm switching my seven year D&D campaign over to RuneQuest right now (detailed in the Heart of Darkness PBP forum). I've never run RuneQuest before and my players have even less experience.

Inspired by the module Fistifuffs at O'Malleys given out on free game day, I started combat with a bar fight. Non-lethal to start and has a very D&D feel to it. However, I used Bison Riders and Pentans as the combatants, giving the brawl a very Gloranthian feel (Pentans hate all other Praxians as the PCs are learning).

So far, tactics have been used well. One PC jumped on a table (+20% to hit for the high ground), another is fighting with beer steins for extra damage, and the duck isn't fighting at all. He's charming a clansman of the Unlucky Tribe in the hopes of fleecing him.

My players adapted instantly to this new way of playing because they don't know what to expect. Instead of roll a d20, kill, Cleave, repeat, they have to react in character.

It has been great so far because even I don't know what they are going to do. And I figured they probably wouldn't get themselves killed in a bar fight.

I'm going to have the magic greataxe from a recent Signs & Portents in the hand of a fachan later. The PCs will have the option to try to take the weapon but will be warned to use missile weapons to soften it up or sneak up on it. I'll see how that monster works out. Tactics will play a big part in that battle as well I'm sure.

I'm also going to offer the PCs the chance to take on the Pentans later in a lethal battle. The Bison Riders will offer to help, for a share in the loot. A big pitched battle between bison and horse riding wildmen should prove interesting.
 
I think that's probably given a hint, listlurker, of how RQ works - and worked - right from the start. It really encourages more roleplaying and less HP-watching, though can be difficult for d20 players to adapt to initially. And it works with MRQ at present, too. As a GM you just have to be gentle, I think.

atgxtg said:
Most of the "casualties" in my campaigns were due to a player acting far, far, stupider that I had anticipated. [...] There just no way to anticipate that level of stupidity.
Ditto. It's really surprising and then, as a GM, you wonder "Do I look this dense to a GM when _I'm_ a player?" Like the players who took a dinghy into a region on their map marked "Here be dragons and ferocious storms", or the players in a Conan game who saw some priests pulling down a statue (apparently), thought "They're up to no good" and charged... despite knowing their own scholar's got a point of corruption just _reading_ about it AND knowing there is a boatload of support for the priests just outside.
 
Once again, thanks to everyone for all the freely-given wisdom. It helps a lot, folks!

I find myself wishing that I could've scored a PDF copy of Fisticuffs At O'Malley's myself, since being able to look at how an action-friendly introductory MRQ adventure works on paper would also be helpful right now.

I did buy the Rune of Chaos adventure through RPGNow but, with utmost respect to author Bryan Steele, it really didn't work for me as a method of selling or promoting the "fun factor" of an RQ game.

Was it well done? Certainly. But the tone was more cerebral and investigative, and the tournament framing device seemed to give what action there was a very constructed feel.

Again, it was a fine adventure -- and my comments are not intended as criticism of Bryan Steele's work -- but Rune of Chaos was the sort of adventure my players would enjoy once they already knew the RuneQuest game, and their game-world.

Personally, I was hoping to find an introductory adventure example to study which was a little less CSI: Glorantha, and a little more Live Free or Die Lunar.

I do realize that MRQ is less about combat mayhem than the D&D my friends and I are all too familiar with, and all pretty dang tired of; this is a good thing.

Still, if you're going to make an impression with an introductory adventure, having the setting and its unique aspects get up in the players' faces can't be bad. Having a bar fight involving Bison Riders and Penthans seems a very good way to get the players' initial attention.

The Lhankmar adventure Swords Against Sorcery, which drew me into MRQ (and to these forums) is another example of the kind of "here's your world -- go, cats, go!" adventure structure. It's a pity I don't know enough about MRQ yet to understand how such an adventure might scale up from low-magic Lhankmar, and play at the high-magic MRQ level.

In any case, thanks to everyone, yet again, for the continuing commentary. It's all helping more than you know. I continue to be impressed by the civility and good humor on these forums.

LL
 
To answer to the OP, there's no need for a "Threat Level" system, because there are no levels. How do you know if some guy or monster would be an appropriate opponent to the PCs? Look at the stats of said monster/NPC and think of how this would play out in front of the PCs. That's about it.

Honestly, when you see an NPC with weapon Skills in the 80/100% range, you know a direct confrontation would be tough on the PCs. It just takes a little bit of practice to know by the stats how this or that stuff plays out "for real" at the game table, but it comes real quick, believe on this. :D
 
Just a short follow-up ...

Kravell's off-hand mention, above, of Signs and Portents got me searching, and I managed to find the free, downloadable versions of the magazine here on the Mongoose website (you can't look for something if you don't know it exists).

Anyway, I now have a bunch of low-to-mid-range MRQ adventures to look over and analyze, which will help me a great deal in figuring out if/how practical MRQ adventuring will work for my gaming group.

Thanks Kravell, and thanks to everyone here for your ongoing support and commentary.

Thank you also, Mongoose Publishing, for continuing to make genuinely useful free PDFs like Signs & Portents available. You've already sold more product to me than you would've otherwise, with this far-sighted and customer-friendly strategy, and my estimation of Mongoose as a publisher has definitely gone up.

Best to all,

LL
 
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