Putting the bound demon back in Elric / MRQ2

[danskmacabre]

Now I know bound demons were removed from Elric /Stormbringer some editions ago as they were not considered a realistic portrayal of the Young Kingdoms.
Whether it is or isn't really isn't the purpose of this thread.

The reason I have created this thread is to come up with a reasonable system that's compatible with Elric/MRQ2 that puts Bound demons back in.

Has anyone done this before with Elric /MRQ2?
If so how did you do it?
If not, have you any suggesstions on how to go about it?

 

[danskmacabre]

I'm also intending to put Bound demons into weapons and armor back in the system as well.
Again any suggestions on how to do this in a way that's compatible with MRQ2 is appreciated.

 

[danskmacabre]

Bound Demons
For bound demons I was thinking something along the lines of the following:

Use the normal rules for summoning a demon.
Use the command skill as normal but when a sorceror wants to BIND a demon into permanent service, the sorceror must additionally sacrifice 1 point of PERMANENT power after successfully commanding the demon.

The demon must be bound into an object, which must be specially prepared with a Chaos symbol mark. If the object is destroyed, the demon is released to do what it will.

The demon can then be snap summoned by the sorceror, taking 1d8 rounds to appear. If it dies (by whatever means) it cannot be summoned again for 24 hours. If the Sorceror dies, the demon is released from the binding to do what it will.

If any further reduction of the Sorceror's power occurs (such as binding another demon for example), the demon must be rebound via the command skill, although another sacrifice of power is not required to the original demon.
A failure to bind it means the demon will not obey the sorceror.
The sorceror can attempt to rebind the demon in 24 hours.
A fumble releases the demon and it can can do whatever it wants depending on the nature of the demon. For example a demon of combat will probably attack the sorceror.

If the binding object is lost, the Sorceror cannot summon the bound demon.
He COULD release the binding, which would release the demon. What the demon does at that point is up to the the GM.
Releasing a demon will not restore the original lost power point.

If the binding object is destroyed, the binding is lost and the demon is free to do what it will.
The lost power point is not restored to the Sorceror.

If the Sorceror is killed, the demon remains bound into the binding object, but the next sentient being that touches it must attempt to rebind the demon.
However they don't have to sacrifice a power point to do this.
A failure to bind the demon in this case means the demon is released and will appear in 1d8 rounds.
What it does then is up to the GM, but for example a demon of combat will probably attack the person attempting to rebind it.

 

[danskmacabre]

Bound Demon weapons
Bound demon weapons are a sub-class of Demons of combat.

Again you summon them as a normal Demon
You also command them as normal using the command skill.

However additionally you must permanently sacrifice a point of power to permanently bind the demon.
Also you must have a specially prepared weapon marked with a Chaos symbol to bind the demon into.
You must assign the statistics for the demon as follows:

The STR and SIZ stats are used to get the actual damage bonus which will be applied to the weapon.
For example if you put 3 magic points into a demon summoning and roll 3D8 for each say getting a combined total of STR+SIZ = 40, then the weapon does 1D6 additional damage.
a STR+SIZ = between 41 and 45 = +1D8 damage bonus and so on.
This should be calculated as per calculating the strength bonus.

The value rolled for CON will replace the HPs of the weapon it's bound into.

The INT has no real effect for Combat demon weapons, although the Sorceror can mentally communicate with the Demon, so Low intelligence Demons should be roleplayed as such by the GM.
Whatever the case, the demon will not have any useful knowledge for the Sorceror, as that's not it's function.

POW is used as normal for the Demon ( to calculate persistence etc)

DEX is calculated as usual. It will add as a bonus to hit later.

CHA is rolled and the value of the CHA will give a guidance as to the appearance of the weapon.
A very low CHA will mean it's a rusty or low quality looking weapon.
A high Charisma will mean it's more impressive looking.

The bonus to hit is calculated as follows:
Multiply the rolled DEX + STR by 3 and the critical value of that is added as a bonus to hit when using the weapon.
For example if you have 3D8 for DEX and roll 12 DEX and roll 13 STR, then add 12+13 = 25, muliply that by 3 = 75. So the bonus to hit is +8.

Again if the weapon is destroyed (the binding object) the demon is released.

If the Sorceror is killed, the demon remains bound into the weapon, but the next sentient being that touches it must attempt to rebind the demon.
However they don't have to sacrifice a power point to do this.
A failure to bind the demon in this case means the demon is released back to hell and the weapon becomes a normal weapon.

If the sword is lost, the sorceror CAN release it, but he won't get his lost POW back.

Regarding chaotic features, Either the GM chooses one as appropriate for a weapon or roll, rerolling anything that can't be logically applied to a Demon weapon, such as a claw, beak etc (apart for decorative purposes I suppose) ..

If any further reduction of the Sorceror's power occurs (such as binding another demon for example), the demon must be rebound via the command skill, although another sacrifice of power is not required to the original demon.
A failed binding means the demon won't give the damage bonus.
The sorceror can retry to bind the demon in 24 hours.
If the sorceror fumbles, the demon is released permanently.
The lost power point is not restored to the Sorceror.

 

[danskmacabre]

Bound Demon Armor

Demon Armor is a Sub-Class of Demons of protection.

Again you summon them as a normal Demon
You also command them as normal using the command skill.

However additionally you must permanently sacrifice a point of power to permanently bind the demon.
Also you must have a specially prepared armor marked with a Chaos symbol to bind the demon into.
The armor must be a single unit of armor, for example a Breastplate, or Chain shirt etc.
Each separate piece of armor needs a new Demon bound into it.

You must assign the statistics for the demon as follows:

STR is not assigned for Demon armor

SIZ is assigned and the number rolled must be at least the same value as the size of the wearer of the armor.
For example of the wearer of the armor is SIZ 12, the number rolled for SIZ must be at least 12 or the wearer cannot wear it.
If the number is higher, it has no negative effect.

DEX is not assigned for Demon Armor.

INT has no real effect for demon armor, although the Sorceror can mentally communicate with the Demon, so Low intelligence Demons should be roleplayed as such by the GM.
Whatever the case, the demon will not have any useful knowledge for the Sorceror, as that's not it's function.

POW is used as normal for the Demon ( to calculate persistence etc)

CHA is rolled and the value of the CHA will give a guidance as to the appearance of the armor.
A very low CHA will mean it's a rusty or low quality looking armor.
A high Charisma will mean it's more impressive looking.

Each additional Magic point put into Demon armor above and beyond those assigned to Attributes and chaotic abilities adds to the armor points of the armor the demon is bound into.
For example if the demon is bound into chainmail which offers 5 points of armor and the sorceror adds an additional 3 magic points then the armor offers 5 +3 = 8 points of protection in the areas the chain protects.

Regarding chaotic features, Either the GM chooses one as appropriate for armor or roll, rerolling anything that can't be logically applied Demon armor, such as a claw, beak etc (apart for decorative purposes I suppose)..

If any further reduction of the Sorceror's power occurs (such as binding another demon for example), the demon must be rebound via the command skill, although another sacrifice of power is not required to the original demon.
A failed binding means the demon won't offer the protection.
The sorceror can retry to bind the demon in 24 hours.
If the sorceror fumbles, the demon is released permanently.
The lost power point is not restored to the Sorceror.

If the armor is lost the sorceror COULD release the binding, which would release the demon (it just goes back to hell).
The lost power point is not restored to the Sorceror.

If the armor is destroyed, the binding is lost and it just goes back to hell
The lost power point is not restored to the Sorceror.

If the Sorceror is killed, the demon remains bound into the armor, but the next sentient being that touches it must attempt to rebind the demon.
However they don't have to sacrifice a power point to do this.
A failure to bind the demon in this case means the demon is released back to hell and the armor becomes normal armor.

 

[danskmacabre]

So that's my take on it.
It's considerably toned down from the original concept of demon weapons, armor and bound demons in Stormbringer 1st ed.

But brings back a flavor to Elric which I missed, regardless of whether it is or isn't true to the original books by Michael Moorcock.

Feel free to comment or suggest improvements, constructive criticisms etc.

 

[DamonJynx]

Instead of having Chaotic features in the armour or weapon why not have the MP invested over the statistics provide a weapon skill bonus of 5% for each point *edit* attack only? *edit* or an AP for each point (the derived attributes don't change)?

At the end of each designated time period (use/day/week/month or whatever) have the user make an opposed Persistence roll with the demon. On a loss the user gains a Chaotic feature up to a maximum of the MP invested. On a win...he doesn't. The same mechanic can be applied to any demon bound item, making their use fraught with peril. If you had a bound item with a total of 5 MP (3 for stats + 2 extra say) the chance is pretty high that the user will end up with 5 Chaotic features... not many would be willing to risk that I think.

Another thing I just thought of is that it's a lot of work and sacrifice, not to mention risk, to achieve results that can be done by simply inscribing runes. For example inscribing a melee weapon with 4 MP of cold/heat runes will add an additional 1D6 damage with no risk. Inscribing a rune of protection onto say a Hauberk or Coat will increase it's AP with no risk at all. That being said, they will need to join a cult or whatever to learn the appropriate runes or have a powerful sorcerer or 2 as patrons.

I appreciate what you're trying to accomplish, but if you do decide to adopt bound demons in your game, you'll have to consider the changes required to the settings core magic; i.e. not allowing inscribed runes so that if people want "magic" items they pay a heavy price. Is it really worth it for that bit of nostalgia?

 

[danskmacabre]

There are certain advantages to Demon weapons and armor.
Once you’ve bound your demon the damage or protection is permanent.

The Elric all have a limited duration of one hour. +1 hour per extra magic point you invest.
So you will run out of magic points really fast and they runes run out fast as well.
With demons once you’ve summoned, bound and sacrifice the 1 power, it’ll last indefinitely.
So when your magic points regenerate, you’re free to use them again and still have the benefits of the weapon or armor.
That a pretty big benefit.

Also with armor you can really ramp up the demonic armor protection quite high, better than a protection rune potentially and again it’s permanent.
Same with a Demon weapon, summoning a more powerful demon can give you quite a high damage bonus.
Of course it’ll be harder to bind, but hey, life is risky in the young kingdoms

Also you have the demonic chaotic features which could add effects and extra damage.
There’s lots of options in chaotic features to make interesting weapons and armor.

I’m not too keen on adding the demonic feature chance, as it already is pretty risky.
I bet a demonic item would be very easily detectable by someone with witchsight as well, which could be problematic.

Regarding the to hit bonus, yeah I could have a think about that and see how to apply it. Your idea is interesting. I think the original rules for demon weapons did it in a different way, I’ll have to check them and compare.

Thanks for your comments

 

[Da Boss]

I have always loved the bound Demons and thought about sorting out something for RQII - great work - thanks. I shall be nicking to consult for when I make my next version of "my" Stormbringer system - it uses bits and pieces for many of the versions.

I did wonder if the orginal rules could be used as is rather than convert?

 

[danskmacabre]

I used some aspects of the original rules, but some of the new rules are better as well, so it's a mix of old and new.

 

[danskmacabre]

I have slightly changed the rules for demon weapons to round them out a bit better.

 

[DamonJynx]

There are certain advantages to Demon weapons and armor.
Once you’ve bound your demon the damage or protection is permanent.

So are inscribed Runes as long as you continue to invest the MP.

The Elric all have a limited duration of one hour. +1 hour per extra magic point you invest. Not so with Inscribed Runes see above.
So you will run out of magic points really fast and they runes run out fast as well. Most likely. If you only have 13 MP and 8-10 are inscribed, it doesn't leave a lot for other castings!
With demons once you’ve summoned, bound and sacrifice the 1 power, it’ll last indefinitely.
So when your magic points regenerate, you’re free to use them again and still have the benefits of the weapon or armor.
That a pretty big benefit. True. Good point, I didn't think of that.

Also with armor you can really ramp up the demonic armor protection quite high, better than a protection rune potentially and again it’s permanent.
Same with a Demon weapon, summoning a more powerful demon can give you quite a high damage bonus.
Of course it’ll be harder to bind, but hey, life is risky in the young kingdoms Yes, point taken.

Also you have the demonic chaotic features which could add effects and extra damage.
There’s lots of options in chaotic features to make interesting weapons and armor. Yes, I'd forgotten about some of them. A few would probably only be suitable for an object anyway, like Absorbing, Beautiful (can be applied to wearer/user as well), Burning, Patterned and so on.

I’m not too keen on adding the demonic feature chance, as it already is pretty risky. Yeah, fair enough.*edit* though it would be fun; player fails his roll; the air around you thickens with an unbearable stench, everyone within 3 mtrs make a Resilience test!*edit*
I bet a demonic item would be very easily detectable by someone with witchsight as well, which could be problematic. I think you'd have to make them detectable wouldn't you? Also, I think Law cultists should be able to detect them in some manner as well, even if they don't have witchsight.

Regarding the to hit bonus, yeah I could have a think about that and see how to apply it. Your idea is interesting. I think the original rules for demon weapons did it in a different way, I’ll have to check them and compare.I'd like to take credit for that, but there was another thread about Magic Items/Wraith Recon and it came up. Pete or Loz, I think (it may have been Dan True in his Eberron conversion also), suggested that for having a +x Sword, each x increased the to hit chance by 5%, which I though was pretty cool.

Thanks for your comments

You're welcome. I did my post at work, so it was kind of on the fly without a lot of thought put in, just some thoughts and suggestions off the top of my head. Post the finished product when you're done, if you don't mind. *edit* unless you've edited the above? *edit* My group of ex-DnD players whinge about the lack of magic stuff. One other suggestion re formatting (if you haven't thought of this already); break up your text so that the binding rules are for ALL demons and then have a separate section for each sub-type of demon, listing it's benefits and drawbacks and so on. That way you'll save on a lot of repetition.

 

[danskmacabre]

There are certain advantages to Demon weapons and armor.
Once you’ve bound your demon the damage or protection is permanent.

So are inscribed Runes as long as you continue to invest the MP.

That's true but you need to invest more in an inscribed rune and you've lost those magic points UNTIL you release the enchantment,
With a Demon you must sacrifice a permanent point of power, but all your magic points come back later.

I think you'd have to make them detectable wouldn't you? Also, I think Law cultists should be able to detect them in some manner as well, even if they don't have witchsight.

I see your point, the item will probably look quite demonic in appearance and there's the chaos symbol that must be inscribed that is a giveaway as well.

I read your comment about the bonus to hit.
I edited my original post somewhat and did it in a slightly different way to make it tie in with the existing MRQ2/Elric rules more closely (IE the way the passions bonus work)
I didn't want to come up with a completely new ruling for the bonus to hit.
But your bonus to hit idea put me on the right track. thanks
Whatver the case feel free to use this in whatver form you like and change it whatever, I don't mind

Regarding the editing, yeah it's very verbose. Probably as I'm used to writing program specifications so they tend to be very verbose.
However these rules I'm integrating into a Scenario that I hope will get published in S&P (if mongoose accept it anyway) so I will format it in a more concise way then.
If they don't accept it, I'll just stick it all on the wiki.

Again thanks for your comments, they are helpful

 

[DamonJynx]

I love talking about this stuff.

I like this idea. I'll probably bring it in as the PC's adventure on another world where demon binding is more 'common'. That way I can keep the Elric setting pretty much as RAW. It won't fit properly in the Eternal Champion cannon ('cos they just don't do it) but it will be a fun way of bringing in 'magic' items.

 

[danskmacabre]

It's going to be pretty rare in my campaign world anyway.
You'll need a specific summoning skill for summoning demon weapons and another for sommoning demon armor.
The knowledge of the actual binding process will be included in the summoning skill for weapons and armor.

Whilst you can use you normal skill for summoning a normal demon, the knowledge to bind it needs to be studied in addition, requiring a summoning skill check after 2 weeks of study of binding (via training or a grimoire).
Success means your current summoning skill has been supplemented with the knowledge to bind that demon type.
Failure means you have to study again and retry the roll.
Once this is achieved, even though you have the knowledge to bind normal demons, you don't HAVE to bind them if you don't want to and can just use the normal rules for demons instead.

 

[danskmacabre]

Yeah they will be good for magic items with a twist, IMO fits in with the mood of the Elric game quite well.

 

[DamonJynx]

Have you given any thought to how a sorcerer can get their POW point back? None of your examples shows how this is accomplished?

If binding a demon of combat there is no point in spending additional MP over and above what is required for its attributes and features (unlike armour), so to increase its benefits you're saying to spend more MP on its abilities?

 

[danskmacabre]

Have you given any thought to how a sorcerer can get their POW point back? None of your examples shows how this is accomplished?

Well you don't get the POW back.. ever really, it's designed as a sacrifice of power to the demon to bind it into a contract.
At least that's how I see it, feel free to use you own ruling such as perhaps if the demon is destroyed, you get your power back. But to me that opens the whole thing up to abuse, chopping and changing demons as suits the player and really I had in mind the demon consumes the POW as part of the way to bind it.
The POW sacrifice is from the original Stormbringer 1st ed rules and I DO quite like it as it makes a sorceror think very seriously about how many demon he's going to summon.
As really if a sorceror is going to summon a demon to bind, you can be sure he's going to throw as many magic points into the demon as he possibly can, seeing as its a permanent binding.
So if there's an option to get that specific power BACK, it runs the risk of a character ending up with several VERY power magic tems and completely dominate the other characters.

That doesn't mean you can't gain power by normal means, such as through advancement points.

If binding a demon of combat there is no point in spending additional MP over and above what is required for its attributes and features (unlike armour), so to increase its benefits you're saying to spend more MP on its abilities?

The damage bonus and to hit bonus will increase if you spend more magic points on the number of D8 attributes.
For example if you spend say 3 magic points of characteristics, the benefits of the demon won't be as great than say if you assign 4 or 5 magic points to attributes.
Lets say you assign 4 magic points to attributes and say roll 26 for STR and 25 for SIZ so 26+25 = 51 (remember a demon weapons gets XD8+8 STR and XD8+8 ) DEX which equates to a +1D12 damage bonus, which is pretty awesome.
If you only assigned 3 magic points to attributes, on the average you will have a lower STR+ SIZ and a lower damage bonus.
But it still makes a lot of sense to add magic points to chaotic features.
Depending on your GM you might even get to choose a chaotic attribute. (I would probably rule every OTHER point to chaotic features you spend, you get to choose one if appropriate to the demon type)
For example imagine a Sword with the "reflecting" attribute on it.
Mabye the character could somehow attempt to "block" runes cast at it like say an opposed weapon skill roll vs the Runes castig or something.
There's loads of possibilities with Chaotic features.
And there's no saying you're restricted to just one.
You COULD just choose a chaotic ability that's increases abilities (such as STR or DEX) and increase damage and/or bonus to hit).

I think there's at least as much reason to add magic points to a weapon, just not in the same way as you might to demon armor (as they are a diferent breed and purpose of demon anyway).
As to demon armor you might want to add chaotic abilities such as "Shaggy" adding armor points to the armor AND it would look dead funny .

I DO think the possibilities are endless, I just didn't want to make the rulings complicated or add too many custom rules when for the most part the exisiting rules work fine and can be adapted..
You could even add compltetely new chaotic features (with the approval of the GM of course).

Part of my BIG concern in re-introducing these rules was that in Stormbringer 1st ed, Demon weapons and Armor were very vaguley defined, so theoretically you could end of with demon weapons doing ridiculous amounts of extra damage (it was possible to be able to add several dice of damage to weapons and many many armor points).
I really didn't want to go back to that.
But at the same time I wanted them to be still powerful but costly and risky as well.

 

[DamonJynx]

Part of my BIG concern in re-introducing these rules was that in Stormbringer 1st ed, Demon weapons and Armor were very vaguley defined, so theoretically you could end of with demon weapons doing ridiculous amounts of extra damage (it was possible to be able to add several dice of damage to weapons and many many armor points).
I really didn't want to go back to that.
But at the same time I wanted them to be still powerful but costly and risky as well.

I've never played Stormbringer, the closest I've come is to reading Dragon Lords of Melnibone, which is a D20 version of Elric (SB4?) and the bound demons in that are way over the top. So, I understand your concerns.

Regarding the POW sacrifice, I thought that perhaps it could be regained by releasing the Demon - but as you say it's probably better to have the POW fuel the binding.

 

[danskmacabre]

Yeah the player can see they can swap out and regain their POW, it will be seen as an exploit and consciously or not it will be abused.

I'm going to clean up the rules for this a bit and repost it, then intergrate it into my scenario.

Thanks I really appreciate the comments. It's always good to get other people's opinions.