Proposal: The White Star - The Knife Fight Variant

[skavendan]

I could give you the email for someone who does frequently

So there you go not everyone things the same way.

 

[Hindsight]

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having a Turret, I like the idea of having a Skirmish level Scout. What I don't like, is the model, the fluff behind it, and the other weaknesses vs. other craft that level.

I'm sure it does ok in certain situations, but I'd never take one.

 

[Methos5000]

why not? just curious

well he probably doesn't like the lack of dwarfness lol no AA dodge CBD. it's a reasonable ship. If anyone has any complain it should be that the episode it is in sucks.

It actually has more to do with the fact it has no defensive traits (other then AF which does nothing against Capital ships) in a defensive trait heavy fleet. They aren't used by many because they die quickly as they are easy targets.

I tried them when they were first added, even have some models of them, rarely use them anymore though as they were just cannon fodder for the enemy, they rarely dished out any damage before they fall to enemy fire.

Would you take a ship that dies on a regular basis before it even gets to shoot at the enemy?

If the ship served a purpose other then trying to escort ships it can't even keep up with maybe I would take it.

Make it a troop transport and maybe I would consider it at least then it would have some use in the fleet.

 

[skavendan]

Would you take a ship that dies on a regular basis before it even gets to shoot at the enemy?

I do actually fighter carrier - useless.
Shadow Omega - tick tick boom.

To date I have managed to nail a bluestar with the shadow omega go him hes really earning his points back!

 

[Methos5000]

Would you take a ship that dies on a regular basis before it even gets to shoot at the enemy?

I do actually fighter carrier - useless.
Shadow Omega - tick tick boom.

To date I have managed to nail a bluestar with the shadow omega go him hes really earning his points back!

Well then you understand why we dislike the Nolo'Tar in terms of survivability and firepower, it feels just as useless to many ISA players compared to pretty much every other ship in their fleet list as your fighter carrier and SO. It seems almost every fleet seems to get stuck with a turkey.

I would actually like to take this ship but right now there is no reason to, I would take a WS over 2 of these or 2 BS for one of these or almost ANY allied skirmish ship before I take it because every time I used it, it died way to quickly even though I get my WS up close most people will aim for the sure thing to eliminate ships, and thus make the ISA less maneuverable as they are getting outsinked.

 

[Foxmeister]

It actually has more to do with the fact it has no defensive traits (other then AF which does nothing against Capital ships) in a defensive trait heavy fleet. They aren't used by many because they die quickly as they are easy targets.

That's because the rest of the fleet is not an easy target! So, the Liandra/Nolo'Tar is far more likely to be targeted, because for some fleets it may well be the *only* possible target. Blue Stars and White Stars both run rings around the Liandra/Nolo'Tar but when taken out of the that fleet context they don't fair that badly at all.

As far as Skirmish ships go, it is way better than others I could mention - Rongoth and Rothan to name but two. Looking the the Liandra specifically, it's arguably as least as good, if not better, than a Sho'Kar which is the only scout the Narn have.

The simple fact of the matter is that the ISA's patrol and raid options are at the top end, but their skirmish choices are probably average for their PL and so you will seldom see them fielded. Of course, if the ISA didn't have access to half of the rest of the fleet book for other choices, you may see them fielded a little more frequently.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

I would actually like to take this ship but right now there is no reason to, I would take a WS over 2 of these or 2 BS for one of these or almost ANY allied skirmish ship before I take it because every time I used it, it died way to quickly even though I get my WS up close most people will aim for the sure thing to eliminate ships, and thus make the ISA less maneuverable as they are getting outsinked.

And therein lies the problem. The reasons they are not taken is because

a) Your choices at Patrol and Raid simply give a great return as they are far faster and more manoeuverable and have dodge, and thus are much harder to target.
b) You can also pick a better option from a wide variety of other lists

Therefore, it's not the ship that's the problem - it's the rest of the fleet and the allies rule! I really don't see how any of this justifies making these ships "better" or giving you a better "native" choice.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Da Boss]

Presently ISA Skirmish chocies are a bit weak not terrible but not great - however give them Stealth 3 or 4+ and they would be better........

At the moment the ISA can choose form these:

Ikorta, Hyperion Assault or Torotha for Plan Assault

Thentus, Ka'Toc or K'tan for a useful gunship

Brikorta - cheap carrier for inteceptors / fighter screen

Pak warbords for L/R missiles and energy mine coverage

Vaarrl for CQ 5 Stealthed Scout..........

and thats without mentioning the Gaim

and thats the problem - the ISA has a ship for everything at all levels without even using its just Ok choice - seems to me need to make the ISA Skirmish a little better and remove allies.............. :?:

 

[Foxmeister]

Presently ISA Skirmish chocies are a bit weak not terrible but not great - however give them Stealth 3 or 4+ and they would be better........

The problem with that, and this is just an example, is that then makes them simply better than several of its peers.

Take the Liandra and Sho'Kar - both are scouts, and both are speed 10 and 2/45 so quite comparable in terms of manoeuverability except the Sho'Kar is agile, but the Liandra has around 60% more HPs and a little under 20% more crew, but then again has a flight computer so it less worried about being skeleton crewed anyway.

As it stands, the Liandra is 1AD down on the main weapon, but has a longer range and a F-arc over boresight. Whilst the Sho'Kar has more AD in secondaries, (14 AD vs 6AD), all the weapons are at very short range and have no other traits whereas the Liandras weapons are all twin-linked and either mini-beam or DD SAP.

Both ships have a figher, but let's face it a flyer is better than either a Frazi or a Gorith.

The main difference then is that the Sho'Kar has 3+ Stealth, but in virtually all other regards the Liandra is a better ship. Give the Liandra 3+ or, heaven forbid, 4+ Stealth and suddenly it is a *way* better ship than a Sho'Kar.

The issue is that the Sho'Kar is already considered by most to be a good Skirmish level ship, and the Liandra is certainly already on a par with the Sho'Kar. Making it better, simply to make it more compelling to take is simply busted.

IMHO, a "AoL" like list of permitted allied ships is the only way to go.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Da Boss]

or now just have a skirmish level space station :roll:

4AD turreted Neutron laser at 36" range and 4 white star fighters........

sure its hull 4 but it does have 80 pts of damage and interceptors and antifighter and auto repairs crits and 8 troops........ did I mention the 36" range neutron laser - turreted

:wink:

 

[Hindsight]

When it comes down to choosing the ships that we can take, people would fight tooth and nail to make it as restrictive as possible. No Dag'Kar? Why, specifically? Certain ships let us deal with certain situations, but would the best combinations be cut out immediately? People would be just as upset by what was let through, when it was all said and done.

If there were no allies worth taking, what'd be the point of taking them at all?

 

[Da Boss]

When it comes down to choosing the ships that we can take, people would fight tooth and nail to make it as restrictive as possible. No Dag'Kar? Why, specifically? Certain ships let us deal with certain situations, but would the best combinations be cut out immediately? People would be just as upset by what was let through, when it was all said and done.

If there were no allies worth taking, what'd be the point of taking them at all?

so you could recreate scenes on the show :wink:

 

[Foxmeister]

When it comes down to choosing the ships that we can take, people would fight tooth and nail to make it as restrictive as possible. No Dag'Kar? Why, specifically? Certain ships let us deal with certain situations, but would the best combinations be cut out immediately? People would be just as upset by what was let through, when it was all said and done.

Personally, I would only allow canon ships (and variants) from the show to actually appear as allies (much like they tried to do with the AoL). So, from the Narn list that would probably mean just the G'Quan, T'Loth, and Frazis.

Regards,

Dave

 

[kitsune106]

Dear gentle beings, and ladies.

Whiel at my work, had the idea for a true knife fighting, skin dancing white star variant. Just wanted ot ask if I shoudl really work on that, or if that is a bad idea.

BNAsically, a special rule to make skin\ dancing easier, but lower damge, higher crippld and skeleton crewed thresholds, and shorter ranged weapons.

Jsut want to see what is thought before I try ot design a whole new ship.

EDIT:
Okay, here it is:

Dancer star raid

Turns: 2/90
Speed: 15
Hull: 5
Troops: 1
Special: Adaptive Armor, Advanced Jump Engine, Agile, Atmospheric, Dodge 3+, Flight Computer, Self Repair 1
Craft: None

Damage: 10/4
Crew: 9/4

Improved Neutron Laser - F Arc - 4" Range, 2AD Beam, Precise, TD
Molecular Pulsar - F Arc - 6" Range, 4AD, Accurate, AP, DD

Special rules:
increased computers and thrusters: this variant has been reprogammed for skin dancing, and additional control thrusters have been added. this allows it to skin dance much more easily. It gain a +3 roll for the skin dancing roll. A roll fo one causes a ram action, as something terrible went wrong.

 

[Da Boss]

Interesting name - maybe loose the Star bit just Dancer or Light Dancer or Dancer in Light (trans from Minbari)

Make it dodge 4+, 3+ is just too much, given range maybe make it a pulsing Neutron laser - minibeam but lots of AD and twin linked? or something

maybe change from agile and 90 turns to be SM?

nice idea though - lets see what greater minds than mine think

 

[eldiablito]

As comments go for dealing with fighters this is BULL. They get a carrier with fighters that have accurate guns so don't make me swear on this forum!

The ISA needs no ally that is the hole problem taking one that compliments them makes the situation worse.

I was told to face 5 raid 5 whitestars so i did. They slaughtered me and the only comments I got where change your ALLY choice! Well mmm if they took a proper ISA fleet they would slaughtered me even quicker.

Are you trying to be a troll? Why are you resorting to attacks when I'm being quite honest in my experiences with the ISA. I made an argument and your initial response is venom. If I may be so bold, try to count to 10 before responding with such a hostile attitude.

Now to answer your comments here... Many fleets have weaknesses; that is fine. I will say again, my comments did not say that everyone has to have a rook and bishop and knight. Likewise, no one has to have a white star and Dag'Kar and Demos and Brokidos. From my experiences, every fleet needs to have a way to deal with high hulls, gigantic damage/crew grids, energy mines, fighters, long range guns, swarms, and close-up ships. From all my experiences the ISA can deal with the high hulls. They can "crit" most ships (precise beams) and/or maneuver out of the way of the big ships. They have plenty of fast ships and advanced jump engines so that they can deal with the long range weapons (heck, their version of the sharlin and victory are long range for their own long range support). With their excellent blue stars, they have a swarm option of their own to handle enemy swarms (although that skirmish level ship is junk). Finally, their own White Star and Blue Star always could handle the close fire-fights with their extra agility and amazing turns.

What I've seen that makes these White Stars suffer are fighters and energy mines. Before I move into all the potential of League, Minbari, and Earth options, I want to point out that my previous post suggested that I want to see SOME Narn, Minbari, League and Earth vessels, but not ALL access. IOW, I want to address the weaknesses of a pure ISA fleet.

I'll start with talking about their weakness against fighters. When enemy fighters make their attack runs, their Dodge (arguably one of the best things that these ships have) is ignored. In response, ISA accurate weapons are a tad bit too short IMO to be effective anti-fighter weapons. Many times, I've seen enemy fighters jump PAST the forward arcs of the white and blue stars and effectively ignore all accurate weapons altogether. Additionally, it is hard to keep off the enemy fighter swarms with the few Nials and white star fighters that the ISA can bring in their own version of the Sharlin and the gunships/carriers. While on the topic of the fighters with accurate guns, as you so astutely mentioned, completely ignores the fact that when you are within 2 inches, you might as well be in a dogfight anyway (getting back to my observation that the accurate weapons are a little too short right now). The only time that you'll see that accurate special effect come in to use is against other ISA capital ships and the small, patrol/skirmish ships that usually have dodge as well; useful, but not exactly THE answer to enemy fighters. Right now, we are discussing the issue of making the white star a close quarters ship; SOMETHING needs a little adjustment, albeit not much. Much could be addressed with a single escort ship (perhaps an improved skirmish ship)

Finally, a pure ISA fleet has real problems against lots of E-Mines. Again, this gets back to the low damage grids. Yes, Much of their ships compensate with (some Stealth on specific ships), Adaptive Armor, Self-Repair, and Dodge. That last one is the key (well, stealth too). A fleet with lots of E-Mines will ignore one of the crucial defenses of the ISA fleet and with their low damage grids, can be quickly wiped out. One observation I've made is that most E-Mines are double, if not triple damage; effectively negating the Adaptive Armor portion of most ISA vessels. So again, the White Star, Blue Star and to a lesser degree, the Battle and War level ships are vulnerable to this specific weapon.

Now I can already hear the anti-White Star individuals on this forum begin to mock me; those people are severely lacking in understanding my posts. All this comes to say that in a truly balanced game, the ISA will not automatically loose to tons of Narn Energy Mines (for example). Likewise, They should not call it a game when taking on hordes of Firebolts too. Are we not trying to reduce the White Star guns, remove much of the access to allies and yet still people are griping about how White Stars are too good? We use the Army of Light as inspiration, the ISA should have access to SOME Narn, SOME Minbari, SOME Earth, and SOME League; much of the "over the top" fleet lists can be seriously reduced.

 

[CZuschlag]

Da Boss ---

Been staying away from this thread for a while, but, yes, Dodge 3+ is way to much. 4+ is better.

 

[Jetbaker]

eldiablito I totally understand your arguement of the whitestar weakness. However, that is a weakness of the fleet and should not be able to be patched up through Allies. I as a Shadow player have less range on my accurate guns than the ISA and yes I do have a problem with fighters and emines. That being said I accept that I must use a dfferent type of tactic when dealing with a fighter heavy or emine heavy army. I do not have the luxury of being able to open a book find the appropriate response to any fight and pick that ship. I despise the Allies rule as all it allows is the complete min maxing of the ISA fleet. Honest to god they should never lose as they are the jack of all trade fleet list and consequenlty have the biggest fleet list to chose from. I do like the idea of the ISA being able to use ships that were actually in the show. I just dont like the ISA being able to ignore the weanesses that were given to them intentionally. That is what makes the ISA Allies rule so hated.
On another note, I have said it before but I think 8 inch range is a good range for the Whitestar. Now I am sure that most people will not agree but I HAVE to point out that the Shadow Scout has in my opinion less survivability overall and still has a 8 inch gun. Why should the ISA have a better raid with more guns, better range, more speed, and more durability when the Shadows kife fighter already palys like one. Use the 8 inches takes time but is has more of a knife fighter feel. I guess I just dont like another knife fighter having better defenses and more AD when they are in essences the exact same type of ship. Anyhow that is my thoughts.

 

[l33tpenguin]

White Star / Raid
Troops: 1
Speed: 15
In Service: 2260+
Turns: 2/90º
Hull: 5
Special Rules: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Jump Engine, Agile, Atmospheric, Dodge 4+, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repairing 1
Damage: 10 / 3
Crew: 12 / 3
Improved Neutron Laser 18 F 2 Beam, Precise, Triple Damage
Molecular Pulsar 10 F 4 Accurate, AP, Double Damage

Shadow Scout / Raid
Speed: 10
Turns: SM
Hull: 5
Special Rules: Atmospheric, Dodge 6+, Scout, Self-Repair 1, Shields 5/5, Stealth 5+
Damage: 25 / 7 Crew: 0 / 0
Phasing Pulse Cannon 8 F 6 Accurate, Double Damage, Super AP

Wow.. comparing those two its kinda like... wtf? The scout beats the WS by 1 DMG (12x2=24 for AA), but also has shields, however the WS can take advantage of CBD. The WS is faster, on the other hand, though the Scout is SM (not much difference, 2x90+agile is almost SM)
I think as for defenses they are pretty even. Dodge 6+stealth 5 vs Dodge 4.

Now weapons... WOW! The WS has pulsars that are comparable, more range, but 2 less AD, and AP instead of SAP. 8 inch range also means everyone's secondary's and tertiary's will be in range, where 10 there are some that it can stay out of
But the (current) WS has an 18 inch Precise, TD beam?

For as equal as they seem to be, when it comes down to weapons the WS FAR outclasses the S.Scout.

 

[Jetbaker]

also remember that the Shadow Scout stealth of 5 is effectively a 4 as when your in range with Scout gun that means that the stealth roll to hit the scout is easier as well.