Progress on 2e

[CZuschlag]

Davesaint:

EP, however, is in general correct. In the case of the Pak fleet of Plasma Torpedoes, it's a HUGE deal. The same goes addressing Saggi fleets, Solar Cannons whereever they may live, and Vree Antimatter Torpedo batteries on things like the Xixx (which, in retrospect, I don't care too much about ... Vree need a little love in a Minbari-Vree matchup. Too much Hull 4.). Disruption torpedoes probably could be a issue, too -- stacks of Omelos, in particular.

Mass Drivers are of issue, too, but they are so rare to fire in the battlefield that I really don't think it's too big a deal.

I'm of course assuming that dumb Slow-Loading on the Wahant's bolters doesn't make a second appearance.....

Of course, Davesaint, if the Avoiki gets fixed the way it SHOULD be, then it's a very big deal!

 

[emperorpenguin]

Of course, Davesaint, if the Avoiki gets fixed the way it SHOULD be, then it's a very big deal!

yes it would be a very big deal! :wink: if any of you used the tournament version of the Avioki you will know how nasty it could be!

but yes perhaps the pak'ma'ra torps or saggi are a better example of why it would be unbalancing

 

[animus]

I don't mind stealth that much. Yes it's a tactical problem, but one that needs addressing. One fights against stealth ships differently than other ships. I think the new fix is good. Stealth is balanced by low hull and damage.

Granted the Minbari win more than they lose, but that could be for a dozen other reasons too - larger games, more experienced players, cheesy or weak fleets.

We find ourselves in our games, splitting fire a lot to get something through. If something's lit by a scout it's pile on time. All part of the game.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Vree need a little love in a Minbari-Vree matchup. Too much Hull 4.

Heh

This has already been solved, but probably not in the way you might think

 

[CZuschlag]

If you're referencing possible architectural changes to the Beam property, I'm on board.

I'm just interested in what it/they/are/is. I've got a guess, but that just means its 90% likely to be wrong and not 100%.

 

[animus]

I love the beam mechanics! It's wonderful - really sets the game apart from other systems. Please don't nurf it! Ship go boom - GOOD!

 

[emperorpenguin]

I love the beam mechanics! It's wonderful - really sets the game apart from other systems. Please don't nurf it! Ship go boom - GOOD!

they aren't nerfed don't worry!

 

[tneva82]

I love the beam mechanics! It's wonderful - really sets the game apart from other systems. Please don't nurf it! Ship go boom - GOOD!

they aren't nerfed don't worry!

Something I have thought for a while as what could fix hull 4 vs beam syndrome: Limit additional rolls for 1 max.

Against Even against hull 6 with SAP that's not going to have HUGE impact(as 2nd reroll would be against hull 6...). Hull 5 it's starting to notice but where it really hits is hull 4 vs SAP as beam would be rolling 2+ and 3+ and that's it.

Of course this is very likely not it but still. I might concider this as house rule until 2nd ed comes to fore. Beams don't get major loss against hull 6, only slight loss against hull 5 but hull 4 gets noticably more survivable.

 

[CZuschlag]

That was what my 90% chance wrong guess was going to be....

But, however, that is indeed a smaller, but measurable, nerfing. So I doubt that's what we're going to see.

 

[Tankdriver]

I think I have been playing wrong. I thought you COULD NOT fire when you failed a stealth roll. And that the stealth roll came first. So why would you still fire a SL weapon.
Did I read the rule wrong?
Is the roll made after the roll of the AD?

CZuschlag, can I copy that list of identies? It could be useful.

 

[lastbesthope]

All intended fire is declared before making a stealth roll

If an attacking ship fails a stealth roll against a target ship, then all fire the attacker declared against the rtarget vessel is assumed to have fired and missed (So any Slow Loading weapons have fired and can't be used next turn)

LBH

 

[Tankdriver]

Then we were playing wrong. Oops. No wonder I had so much luck against Minbari.

Kind of silly though.

"Prepare to fire"
"Captain, we have no lock on"
"Fire any way!"

How about you just say that ship cannot fire on said ship when a stealth roll is failed and not actually dump the weapons?

 

[TeknoMerk]

I believe Matt said mentioned that there are new counters for 2E. If so, how are these different than the current ones?

 

[lastbesthope]

Well for a start there are ships that don't have counters yet that will need them. Also for tyhose buying into the game at 2e, they'll want some counters perhaps so it makes sense to put a new counter pack together.

LBH

 

[emperorpenguin]

Kind of silly though.

"Prepare to fire"
"Captain, we have no lock on"
"Fire any way!"

That wasn't how stealth worked in the series though. It was a case of just blazing away hoping to hit not "check to see if we lock on or not then fire"

Really though JMS hadn't a clue what stealth did or didn't do!

How about you just say that ship cannot fire on said ship when a stealth roll is failed and not actually dump the weapons?

if you mean for slow-loading weapons because it would unbalance them

 

[TeknoMerk]

Well for a start there are ships that don't have counters yet that will need them. Also for tyhose buying into the game at 2e, they'll want some counters perhaps so it makes sense to put a new counter pack together.

LBH

New pack, but not new art? That's fine. I just wanted to make sure my old counters will work just as well.

I'm one of those renegades that use the AOG Fleet Action minis and fill in gaps with Full Thrust, etc minis and counters. I was already too invested in the smaller scale to switch to the more expensive full-size minis.

 

[Ripple]

Hmm...a lot of folks keep going back to stealth being balanced. Please look more closely as what the 'anti-stealth' folks are saying. Not that it isn't balanced to some degree, but that it isn't fun. In the case of the slow-loading debate the 'not fun' issue is exacerbated by it being 'not fun' for more than one turn...your are make even fewer, even more important rolls. If I was running a fleet with a large number of slow loading weapons vs Minbari in a tourney I would be sorely tempted to just cut the maximium number of turns in half and roll that many dice for each ship...if I did not get more than half concede total victory to my opponent and let us get some shopping time in.

They tried to fix the stealth issue in by adding in the fighters StF and Scout targeting assistance. From a tourney standpoint that actually just broke the rule further. Now if I custom out my fleet to face a Minbari player I have assests that are likely useless vs Narn (fighters) or marginally effective (scouts that need 5+ on the CQ roll to redirect, especially if I had to buy a raid level one). If I don't draw a stealth equipped enemy I've hamstrung myself, but if I don't take anti-stealth ships I have little chance of winning if I do draw one. Really takes the test of player quality aspect of the tourney and reduces it to more luck of the draw, rock paper scissors.

Lots of races still do not have a survivable scout, or fighters they want to take/are useful against minbari (see Kotha) so stealth remains something that is usually a 50/50 or worse roll, assuming the Minbari player actually plays to his strengths. That is the frustrating part. One on one, knowing your playing Minbari they provide an interesting challenge in fleet building...especially given you supposed answers to stealth are things the minbari excel at removing (ie smaller ships/younger races fighters). In a campaign, tourney, blind or multiplayer encounter stealth is just plain unfun.

oh and since we're chatting about beams...I though if you just always lost one die of those that hit you really stop the long string of death but can still get some big deal hits in. That or beams always re-roll all dice, but only once. Problem is with both that single die beams which are very flavor adding for smaller ships get hosed out of their glory.

Ripple

 

[Shadow Queen]

Tankdriver wrote:
Kind of silly though.

"Prepare to fire"
"Captain, we have no lock on"
"Fire any way!"


or "Fire at that thing!!!!!!"

 

[Chernobyl]

They tried to fix the stealth issue in by adding in the fighters StF and Scout targeting assistance. From a tourney standpoint that actually just broke the rule further. Now if I custom out my fleet to face a Minbari player I have assests that are likely useless vs Narn (fighters) or marginally effective (scouts that need 5+ on the CQ roll to redirect, especially if I had to buy a raid level one). If I don't draw a stealth equipped enemy I've hamstrung myself, but if I don't take anti-stealth ships I have little chance of winning if I do draw one. Really takes the test of player quality aspect of the tourney and reduces it to more luck of the draw, rock paper scissors.

Ripple, thats why I've advocated a different approach to tournaments.
Vary the PL, and change fleet selection based on opponent. My tourney's run with one larger fleet list that you can choose from for the round you're fighting. So, if you're not facing a "stealth" fleet like the Minbo's you can consider leaving the scout at home for that round.
Basically, I suppose what I'm saying is that it might not be Stealth in this case that's broken, but the tournament format. You're right in that scouts and fighters aren't always needed - in a military situation you would make effoerts to use the best tools possible, but you might not get the chance.

Chernobyl

 

[emperorpenguin]

Hmm...a lot of folks keep going back to stealth being balanced. Please look more closely as what the 'anti-stealth' folks are saying. Not that it isn't balanced to some degree, but that it isn't fun. In the case of the slow-loading debate the 'not fun' issue is exacerbated by it being 'not fun' for more than one turn...Ripple

That wasn't what I was saying. I agree to an extent that stealth isn't fun, but it is balanced. My issue is with people (and there have been a few in recent days) saying that if you fail a stealth roll then slow-loading weapons shouldn't fire. That would massively overpower ships with those weapons in relation to non slow-loaders.
That is all I am saying and nothing else