Progress on 2e

[LordClammy]

so, if the EA gets the victory, is the ISA getting something else ? I always liked the ISA because they were different. and much like normal stand alone fleets, no one else had their ships (aside from fighters that were taken from both minbari and EA), until now. I think that the EA has enough options, and they dont really need the Victory.

 

[Triggy]

No need to worry, it's a single choice (can't be picked multiple times), is now the only EA representative at Armageddon PL and most importantly: it's Armageddon PL so it won't get too much action in many games anyway - the more chance it has to be fielded, the better!

 

[emperorpenguin]

I think that the EA has enough options, and they dont really need the Victory.

however if you watch crusade you will see that the EA does indeed have the Excalibur, needed or not

 

[Alexb83]

Yeah, and the Whitestar was a Minbari ship... that isn't a fleet option for Minbari. Since when has storyline had anything to do with it?

Yes, but the White star has been built exclusively for the Rangers, who were later turned into the ISA police force. Half of their crew ARE Minbari. And we never see White Stars as part of any Minbari fleet (even old patrol craft like the Enfili or the Liandra have been handed over to the Rangers).

Well, the Liandra is expressly said to have been a Minbari ship that was handed over to the Rangers. And as for the Whitestar - it was built by the minbari before the formation of the ISA. The first Whitestar was manned first completely by Minbari, then later the rangers (who still worked for the Minbari at the time!) took over the fleet.

If the Excalibur is going in as an option for the ISA, why isn't Whitestar 1 an option for the Minbari as an exclusive ship.

Or, starter for 10: why can't ISA member fleets take ISA allies, but ISA fleets can take ISA member allies?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The Whitestar is an ISA ship because in the series, Sheridan and Delenn quite clearly have command of the Whitestar Fleet, as opposed to the Grey Council. The only times we see Minbari fleets and Whitestars operating together is on ISA/Army of Light business, with Sheridan or one of his minions in direct command.

 

[captainsmirk]

The first Whitestar was manned first completely by Minbari, then later the rangers (who still worked for the Minbari at the time!) took over the fleet.

The White Stars had Religious Caste Minbari crews with Ranger commanders initially. And they worked for Sinclair and then Sheridan/Delenn none of whom can really be classified as working for the Minbari.
They were part of the Army of Light thing which you can claim is basically the ISA Fleet before it became the ISA (Just ignore everything except the WS1, throw in some allies and there you go an Army of Light Fleet...)


Nick

 

[Alexb83]

It's worth noting that for some time in Season 3, they are still under the control of the grey council, because that's who Delenn works for up until the point when she breaks it and becomes Entil'Zha.

You need only look at In the Beginning to see that the Rangers answered to the Grey Council before the Shadow War, and up until the early days of the shadow war.

 

[captainsmirk]

Well the first White Star was given to Sheridan for his use quite specifically. By the time the Fleet appeared the Grey Council had already been broken...


Nick[/u]

 

[Alexb83]

The fact that the Minbari loaned it to Sheridan doesn't change the fact that it was a Minbari ship.

Next you'll be arguing that since he was still technically wearing an EA uniform when he took ownership, it should be put in the EA list, along with the obscenely out of place Excalibur. Blech.

Even if for some obscure reason you don't want to add the Whitestar into the Minbari list, it is difficult to explain why the ISA<--ISA Members ship exchange program doesn't work in both directions. Yes, the ISA have a limited ship selection, but having lots of options in EA lists never stopped Mongoose from adding more.

 

[Burger]

The White Star was a Vorlon + religious caste/ranger ship. A whole 2/3 of the Minbari population did not know of its existance.

And, a Drazi fleet that contains White Stars, is not a "Drazi" fleet; it is an "ISA" fleet.

But VCD in EA's list, that is just wrong.

 

[Balance]

Manned by EA because Sheridan stole them from the shipyard.

Does it really count as theft if the President of the ISA 'borrows' some vessels being constructed for the ISA? Admittedly, one was returned in less than perfect condition.

But Sheridan isn't Zaphod Beeblebrox. Now there was a president who knew about stealing starships.

 

[Alexb83]

The White Star was a Vorlon + religious caste/ranger ship. A whole 2/3 of the Minbari population did not know of its existance.

And, a Drazi fleet that contains White Stars, is not a "Drazi" fleet; it is an "ISA" fleet.

But VCD in EA's list, that is just wrong.

It's all about relative proportion. 1 FAP of allies in an ISA fleet doesn't make it a fleet belonging to the alliance. 1 FAP of ISA in a members fleet wouldn't do so, either.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Does it really count as theft if the President of the ISA 'borrows' some vessels being constructed for the ISA? Admittedly, one was returned in less than perfect condition.

But Sheridan isn't Zaphod Beeblebrox. Now there was a president who knew about stealing starships.

Depending on how the ISA government works (or fails to work, like most governments...) the president may or may not be able to just take military units from their construction facilities and use them without the backing of whatever legislative assembly the ISA has. Given that the ISA seems to be largely based on a US-style federated system, I'd say he couldn't legally do it on his own authority alone.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Given what was at stake I don't think many ISA members (and certainly not Humans) would make an issue of it !

I suspect the Excalibur in the EA list will be restricted by service dates to about 2 years (JMS intended the cure to be found about half way through Season 2) in a similar fashion to the way the Shadow Omega is restricted.

 

[katadder]

The fact that the Minbari loaned it to Sheridan doesn't change the fact that it was a Minbari ship.

Next you'll be arguing that since he was still technically wearing an EA uniform when he took ownership, it should be put in the EA list, along with the obscenely out of place Excalibur. Blech.

Even if for some obscure reason you don't want to add the Whitestar into the Minbari list, it is difficult to explain why the ISA<--ISA Members ship exchange program doesn't work in both directions. Yes, the ISA have a limited ship selection, but having lots of options in EA lists never stopped Mongoose from adding more.

Members of the ISA have as part of their membership agreement to assist the ISA when called upon to do so and put some of their ships under ISA overall command, this is why the ISA can use other peoples ships.
If the ISA helps out a member it is under its own command as an ISA fleet and doesnt go round lending whitestars to other races as they could find whitestars being used against each other or some such.

as for the EA getting the Excalibur, this gives them an armageddon choice at least, its unique so can only be chosen once and in the series its fully crewed by EA and would probably call on EA assistance when needed. look on it more as the excalibur calling for an EA fleet rather than an EA fleet using the excalibur.

 

[Alexb83]

I thought that the deal was, the ISA would help its members organise their strategies, and commit the whitestar fleet, or part thereof to assist them in defending their intersests?

As for the Excalibur - is it appropriately downrated from the normal victory? (lower CQ, etc?). Sure, give them an armageddon choice - but the victory doesn't match the rest of the EA list. It's an adaptive armour monster that really doesn't fit in - quick fix to a problem IMO where a different and more appropriate new design (even an uprated warlock) would be better.

 

[katadder]

it will have usual CQ for EA fleets as its not part of the ISA. the victory doesnt match the fleet, you're right but then its EA in the series so whats the problem? everyone wants things to be close to the show but when something is they tend to cmplain.
sure the ISA said it would commit the WS fleet to help protect their members but you really think its gonna be under their command?
plus think campaign - what if every ISA member has Whitestars? they wouldnt be fighting each other, and as each ISA member has whitestars they probably wouldnt assist in attacking either. against raiders, drakh, shadows and vorlons is about the only time WS would really be helping. or against agressors, but then you have to decide who is the agressor and they cant use whitestars perhaps thats the way to go, ISA member suse whitestars but only if they are the defender or only against certain races

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Only ISA and League fleets should get allies. ISA members using their own military units shouldn't be calling for the White Star fleet every five minutes, else why bother to maintain their own fleet at all?

 

[Alexb83]

That begs the question: why join the ISA?

 

[katadder]

because the ISA will send the WS fleet to protect you from drakh/raiders etc if needed.
also the ISA allows for better trading of technology etc.
also the ISA can help to settle border disputes and make sure that the settlement is followed.