Progress on 2e

[Alexb83]

I have to admit I dont think that the technological development is totally unbeleivable, look at our own technological development, Kitty Hawk to the moon in what? 60 years?? thats some big leaps.

Technology does tend to leap ahead in bounds, rather than a slow trickle - but those bounds tend to be over progressively larger hurdles. How big a jump from the steam engine to the gas turbine, from the gas turbine to the nuclear reactor? Between now and the 2200s, the EA has gained Fusion technology, but nothing more advanced. Assuming they discovered it in the 21st century, that would assume that the EA have been attempting to further their drive technology for 200 years and gotten nowhere. Yes, some tech has been /given/ to them in the crusade era, but that's not innovation.

I think it's completely stretching the realms of imagination to come up with a viable reason why any of those much more advanced races isnt' devoting their resources in exactly the same way the EA is, and happily rely on their centuries old technology whilst letting potential agressors exceed them. If experience on Earth is anything to go by, then arms limitation treaties don't mean that much at all, as ships will be built to their absolute limits.

 

[Alexb83]

Agree - also once the Ancients start handing out their Tech to other races or it is recovered then advances are going to be swift.

Not sure is a problem with Minbari stealth - usually very effectve and it is an extra edge - their weapons, fighters etc are very powerful. and logically the Vorlons / Shadows should ignore their stealth...............

Shadows and Vorlons getting bonuses against stealth isn't the problem - it's everyone else effectively ignoring it, especially the EA when the show explicitly shows that they can't do so.

 

[katadder]

because older races stagnate and dont develop any more weapons, they think they are at the pinnacle of technology.
the minbari fought the shadows 1000 years before and won, but probably havent advanced much from there. they defeated the EA and all they do is design one more ship whilst the EA designs lots.
its like wargaming, you learn more from a defeat than a win and have to change your tactics. keep winning you keep using the same formula and eventually someone comes along who can beat that as they have caught up.
alot of our biggest advances come from wars wether we win or lose, the same could be said of the younger races - the EA had the dilgar war, then the minbari war, then the shadows war, then the civil war and at some point a teep war. that gives alot of time for rapid advancement.

 

[Alexb83]

The Minbari beat the shadows with a great deal of help from other races (many of whom died out), including the Vorlons and the First Ones.

In the intervening 1000 years, their entire society, military and technology were upheaved with the sole purpose of preparing for a simple prophecy about a war 1000 years in the future - that's not stagnation, that's a race dedicating massive resources towards war. As for being at the pinnacle of their technology - this hardly seems true, as now they have a host of vorlon systems they should be integrating into their own ships.

Then you have the Centauri, who are now having their strings pulled by another more advanced race, which already in ACTA is putting their technology onto Centauri hulls.

As for the EA - the only real progression in technology shown for them between In the Beginning and the end of the civil war is the introduction of Beam Weapons (which they had to buy!) and gravity plating for their decks (which was given to them!) that, and bolting some atmospheric wings on their fighters. The introduction of shadow technology was entirely clandestine based on all the evidence we have, and didn't factor in to normal military units.

 

[LordClinto]

.....Perhaps giving Minbari the Drakh/Shadow/Vorlon +1 vs. stealth bonus, or unlimited range on Leshath scout traits.

Either the "first ones/ancients" +1 Bonus or unlimited range to the Leshath would make sense.

It asks the age old question: "Can a Minbari Worker Caste engineer build a starship Stealth system so powerful that even they can't build a Sensor network to detect it?" :lol:

 

[Silvereye]

And ultimately what the PL system boils down to is trying to equate ships to each other. A K'B'T should be able to take on a Vorlon Heavy Cruiser by the rule of Priority Levels... is this right?

God no, a Vorlon Heavy Cruiser should be expected to defeat a Ka'Bin'Tak most of the time. Anyone daft enough to put a Ka'Bin'Tak 1 on 1 with a Vorlon Heavy Cruiser or Shadow Ship is just asking to get ganked. However a balanced fleet of Narns, including a Ka'Bin'Tak should have an equal chance of defeating an equal sized force of Vorlons or Shadows that includes a Vorlon Heavy Cruiser or Shadow Ship.

The Vorlon Heavy Cruiser and Shadow Ship are on the pinacle of 1 ship vs 1 ship duelling. Each has 1 very powerful weapon. The Ka'Bin'Tak is designed to break whole fleets of smaller ships, it has many reasonably powerful weapons and lots of less powerful weapons and bucket-loasds of spare weapons.

 

[Greg Smith]

But did the Warlock really support shadow tech? I know it says as much in the SFOS fluff, but thas about the only source I can htink of at the moment...

It comes from a JMS short story.

 

[MustEatBrains]

But did the Warlock really support shadow tech? I know it says as much in the SFOS fluff, but thas about the only source I can htink of at the moment...

It comes from a JMS short story.

Ah, ok, cool - didn´t know that. Good to know though, thanks!

 

[Jhary]

what stops "younger" races to invent "new" technologie? Or why cant´t "younger "races find new ways for old problems?

 

[tneva82]

the minbari fought the shadows 1000 years before and won,

They won thanks to the vorlons.

If anything that war should have boosted their interest in tech development. Getting their ass kicked until vorlons came to rescue should give them some idea that their ships aren't good enough to face shadows alone.

its like wargaming, you learn more from a defeat than a win

They didn't really win the last shadow war. They needed vorlons for that one.

 

[captainsmirk]

One way to look at the Vorlon HC - Ka'Bin'Tak thing is that the Ka'Bin'Tak is a Dreadnought, the Heavy Cruiser is urm... a Heavy Cruiser (equivalent to the G'Quan, which is 2 PL lower...). Therefore a Vorlon Cruiser is a match for a Narn Dreadnought, not bad going there...

Admittedly this doesn't quite work against the EA but then they don't use the standard naval designation system... (odd considering their the race which developed in the first place...)


Nick

 

[Da Boss]

I would think that the Designation - Heavy Cruiser is actually a Earthforce (or other gov) one - hell it might be a yacht and the other ships seen - smaller yachts - that might be how powerful they are?!

re tech increases - I have always thought of ther minbari as an eldar style race - they spend as much time on asthetics and perfecting technology as anything else - they are inflexible and dislike change - especially the Warrior case and until the later half of the series - there was still nothing save the Shadows that could touch their ships

re stealth - can a more informed person say if us can detect their own stealth fighters if they go dark.............

I think if you are saying early EA can't shoot at Minbari then Shadows and Vorlons need a major upgrade to reflect them in the show. Also they should ignore anyone elses Stealth.

 

[H]

I'm not really sure the Modern stealth system, and the US are a great comparison for Minbari stealth. The mighty B2 shows up on a portable air defence system designed by BAe. OK, the US said "it wasn't in combat conditions", but I can't for one second believe they have a magic stealth button. Modern stealth can be burned through by pretty much any detection system IF it is ramped up and focused, even Tom "the US is the bestest in the world" Clancy admits as much, and he hates admiting stuff like that. Minbari stealth onthe other hand, as we see through the show is pretty much unpenetrable apart from by Ancients, althogugh we do know at least that minbari stealth has an active component, which, intheory means an Ionic burst e-mine should remove the stealth for a turn, as it overloads the systems....

 

[Jhary]

I think as its mention in the show the so called stealth is more an ECM that prefent a target lock on because you can still see them on youre navigation display.

 

[Alexb83]

One way to look at the Vorlon HC - Ka'Bin'Tak thing is that the Ka'Bin'Tak is a Dreadnought, the Heavy Cruiser is urm... a Heavy Cruiser (equivalent to the G'Quan, which is 2 PL lower...). Therefore a Vorlon Cruiser is a match for a Narn Dreadnought, not bad going there...

Admittedly this doesn't quite work against the EA but then they don't use the standard naval designation system... (odd considering their the race which developed in the first place...)

Nick

The designation is a bit pointless - it was probably based on mass, rather than anything else - IIRC VHCs aren't all that much bigger than an Omega when shown in the pilot relative to B5. Earth has no idea what armaments the vorlons have, so it can't be based on the size of their guns. Are they ever called 'heavy cruisers' in the series? It may just be a naming convention from the special effects team who did the CGI.

Edit - from http://www.merzo.net/ the VHC is actually no bigger in size than a G'quan, or a Sharlin, or a Shadow Ship.

 

[katadder]

just accept some ships are the same PL cos they are a Ka'Bin'Tak is massive so probably has multiple energy sources in board for all its weapons. having said that though its weapons are not that much more powerful than a standard bin'tak, it just has lots of them instead of 2 huge guns like a vorlon HC. it doesnt have any fancy defenses like stealth, AA, or interceptors, it doesnt even have an advanced jump engine, its just a huge ship with lots of gun, very straight forward

 

[tneva82]

its just a huge ship with lots of gun, very straight forward

But should it be equal of first ones ship? Not really.

 

[katadder]

why not? it doesnt have their tech, sure but it has enough firepower that way.
the 1st ones still have the advantage over it of no crew or crits. i mean a 1,5 crit stops it from lining up boresight, obviously the 4,6 crits are always bad, this is nothing the 1st ones have to deal with, and using their precise beams they can crit the younger races ships alot.

 

[tneva82]

why not? it doesnt have their tech, sure but it has enough firepower that way.

Maybe because first ones are able to create more powerfull ships than any younger race? Couple of million years of technological advantage has certain advantages...

Maybe minbari's might be able to create something of equal now that they have access to some vorlon tech but narns? Humans? Centauri? Hah!

 

[katadder]

its not about the tech, its about the amount of weapons the Narn put on that ship, its not technical at all, its a brick with lots of guns.
think of a man with a machine gun versus 1000 men with spears, yep he can kill alot but he wont get them all before he dies.