Progress on 2e
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Burger said:You should put that in your sig
Into the Fire: 4th place
Wheel of Fire: 9th place
Gaelcon 2006: 2nd place
A Call To Arms Playtester
Not Irish
:lol: Not a bad idea!
EDIT: Changed my location instead!
Burger said:How can something be "very unique"? It's either unique or it isn't
I simply meant as opposed to other popular science fiction settings where time travel is supposed to be an incredibly uncommon occurrence but seems to pop up every few movies at least... (Not to mention dozens of episodes.)
Def want more ships for Shadows and Vorlons - there is no reason not to do one ship per level except perhaps Patrol. You don’t see them in the show because they don’t want you to – that’s how good they are.
DONT READ THESE ARE TOO GOOD FOR SKIRMISH ! (An Edit)
For Example:
Shadow Infiltrator Skirmish
Masters of deception and manipulation, only matched by their Vorlon rivals, the Shadows often find it necessary to infiltrate or extract key operatives – often those of “lesser races” who they have convinced should join them. This ship serves that purpose well and has the ability to eliminate pursuit or witnesses if required.
Speed: 12
Turn: SM
Hull: 5
Damage: 40
Special Rules: Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repair 1, Stealth 5+
In Service: Until 2261
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Light Molecular Slicer Beam 10 F 2 Beam, Precise, AP, Double Damage
Vorlon Observer (edited) Skirmish
A race that prides itself on its observation and where “necessary” interference in other races affairs has many tools to do so, including this observer ship. It is able to slip into star systems unchallenged and if spotted simply leaves leaving behind merely questions as to its intentions and abilities.
Speed: 10
Turn: 2/90
Hull: 5
Damage: 50
Special Rules: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repair 1d6, Stealth 5+
In Service: Until 2261
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discahrge Gun 10 F 2 Beam, Double Damage, Precise
DONT READ THESE ARE TOO GOOD FOR SKIRMISH ! (An Edit)
For Example:
Shadow Infiltrator Skirmish
Masters of deception and manipulation, only matched by their Vorlon rivals, the Shadows often find it necessary to infiltrate or extract key operatives – often those of “lesser races” who they have convinced should join them. This ship serves that purpose well and has the ability to eliminate pursuit or witnesses if required.
Speed: 12
Turn: SM
Hull: 5
Damage: 40
Special Rules: Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repair 1, Stealth 5+
In Service: Until 2261
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Light Molecular Slicer Beam 10 F 2 Beam, Precise, AP, Double Damage
Vorlon Observer (edited) Skirmish
A race that prides itself on its observation and where “necessary” interference in other races affairs has many tools to do so, including this observer ship. It is able to slip into star systems unchallenged and if spotted simply leaves leaving behind merely questions as to its intentions and abilities.
Speed: 10
Turn: 2/90
Hull: 5
Damage: 50
Special Rules: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repair 1d6, Stealth 5+
In Service: Until 2261
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discahrge Gun 10 F 2 Beam, Double Damage, Precise
Greg Smith said:
To be honest, I think there is still a time and a place for standard Vorchans, although the Vorchat is in most ways a superior choice currently. However it is very difficult to even think about taking a Vorchar when you can have two Corvans instead.
As to the Amar, this is also made redundant by the Corvans. The only reason to take one instead of a Darkner would be for the fighters, and two Corvans bring more weaponry, and the same amount of fighters for a slight reduction in damage (though you get the versatility and redundancy of the two ships and two Scouts to boot).
Perhaps the Corvan, as it stands, is just too good to be a Patrol choice.
Demos is just too poor when considered alongside the other Raid choices abvailable to the Centauri (e.g the Dargan). It sits at the bottom of the list of Centauri Raid ships I'd use, despite the Triple Damage torpedoes.
Balvarin. All that it has going for it currently is it's huge damage and crew values. Adding the traits Carrier 2 (and perhaps Interceptors 1) would make this a good choice to consider. As the Centauri fleet farvours dogfighters as it's primary anti-fighter weaponry.
The Balvarix is sound as it stands, it brings a lot to the fleet with it's traits; it can recover Raziks, Sentris and Rutarians and Command +2 is always nice. The big Matter Cannon banks also give it the options of being a light warship, so it does not require as much fleet protection as other carriers.
Vorchans are still very nice even in their current iteration, they just have to be used properly. In a game against Katadder recently they acquitted themselves very well (not taking into account my ridiculous crit rolling against them). Frankly upgrading their guns much more will make them far too tough at their current PL.
Interceptors adn the Centauri
I have never understood how races that has small ships with them do not have them on captial ships -
The Octurion and Primus (especially the latter) I think need them for reasons of fluff and due to their lower damage rating - although they do have the range on beams to fight at range at present so could argue that this is enough.....but if they need to close with the enemy - ie lots of short range high powered weapons they will die getting there.
I have never understood how races that has small ships with them do not have them on captial ships -
The Octurion and Primus (especially the latter) I think need them for reasons of fluff and due to their lower damage rating - although they do have the range on beams to fight at range at present so could argue that this is enough.....but if they need to close with the enemy - ie lots of short range high powered weapons they will die getting there.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Da Boss said:
What fluff? Prior to ACTA they didn't have interceptors! On screen you never see the Primus (and it comes under a hail of fire from a G'Quan and B5 in the two battles) intercept any fire
I was talking about ACTA fluff
Captains of larger ships such as the Primus or even the gigantic Octurion treat themselves as mobile fortresses. With heavy weaponry on all sides, and defensive turrets and fighters ready, these metal giants can sail carelessly into the centre of an engagement to draw a portion of fire away from the more fragile hunting ‘flight packs’ circling the outer edges of a conflict.
I thought it was agreed that was not the Primus anyway.......and the Octurion is simply made up anyway isn't it? I just think that why would any younger race not put inteceptors on their big, easily targetable ships ships unless they have a better defence - like say Stealth or Dodge. Or they have not got the tech.
Captains of larger ships such as the Primus or even the gigantic Octurion treat themselves as mobile fortresses. With heavy weaponry on all sides, and defensive turrets and fighters ready, these metal giants can sail carelessly into the centre of an engagement to draw a portion of fire away from the more fragile hunting ‘flight packs’ circling the outer edges of a conflict.
I thought it was agreed that was not the Primus anyway.......and the Octurion is simply made up anyway isn't it? I just think that why would any younger race not put inteceptors on their big, easily targetable ships ships unless they have a better defence - like say Stealth or Dodge. Or they have not got the tech.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Da Boss:
Sorry, but I have to call that out on these two monstrosities. Are you insane? Consider one of the two core fleet elements of the Drakh -- the Heavy Raider. They are both balanced at Skirmish, in theory. But, with these ships, it's a joke. Let's compare
..........Drakh:... Shadow:
Speed:...10..........12
All Power:15.........24
Range:.....8..........10
Eff. DMg:..18........13.5 (Here's the one edge that I can see. Not that it makes up for it.)
Crits:.......Yes.......No
Cripple?:..Yes.......No
Hull:..........4.........5
Avoids on:.33%....50% or more (Dodge vs. Stealth)
Scout?:.....No.......Yes
Turns?:...2/45......All you want
AJP?:........No.......Yes
Other:......GEG....Self-Rpr (pretty level..the campaign consideration are large of Self-Repair)
Balanced:..Yes......No
And I just took a solid buy, the Heavy Raider. It's worse if you take other skirmish ships, like the Vorchan.
Please, Da Boss, analyze all the other fleets present and see how your ship fits in to even the most similar ship fielded by another race before you suggest such things. For example, consider the ISA WhiteStar vs. your busted Vorlon Observer as well. The Observer is almost superior at raid level.
Sorry, dude, but these kind of offenses can get your Unbalanced Cry License revoked.
Sorry, but I have to call that out on these two monstrosities. Are you insane? Consider one of the two core fleet elements of the Drakh -- the Heavy Raider. They are both balanced at Skirmish, in theory. But, with these ships, it's a joke. Let's compare
..........Drakh:... Shadow:
Speed:...10..........12
All Power:15.........24
Range:.....8..........10
Eff. DMg:..18........13.5 (Here's the one edge that I can see. Not that it makes up for it.)
Crits:.......Yes.......No
Cripple?:..Yes.......No
Hull:..........4.........5
Avoids on:.33%....50% or more (Dodge vs. Stealth)
Scout?:.....No.......Yes
Turns?:...2/45......All you want
AJP?:........No.......Yes
Other:......GEG....Self-Rpr (pretty level..the campaign consideration are large of Self-Repair)
Balanced:..Yes......No
And I just took a solid buy, the Heavy Raider. It's worse if you take other skirmish ships, like the Vorchan.
Please, Da Boss, analyze all the other fleets present and see how your ship fits in to even the most similar ship fielded by another race before you suggest such things. For example, consider the ISA WhiteStar vs. your busted Vorlon Observer as well. The Observer is almost superior at raid level.
Sorry, dude, but these kind of offenses can get your Unbalanced Cry License revoked.
Ok good points - they were quick things Imade up and and should have thought more then - however scale them down and you could make a usable interesting ship I think for Vorlons and Shadows which I don't think they have enough off - and perhaps I should not have put the weapons back on the Vorlon ship........so what about:
Speed: 12
Turn: SM
Hull: 4
Damage: 30
Special Rules: Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repair 1, Stealth 5+
In Service: Until 2261
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Light Molecular Slicer Beam 8 F 1 Beam, Precise, AP, Double Damage
Speed: 10
Turn: 2/90
Hull: 5
Damage: 40
Special Rules: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repair 1, Stealth 5+
In Service: Until 2261
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
none
sorry but I sometimes get carried away and type before I think!
Whats a Unbalanced Cry License?
Speed: 12
Turn: SM
Hull: 4
Damage: 30
Special Rules: Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repair 1, Stealth 5+
In Service: Until 2261
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Light Molecular Slicer Beam 8 F 1 Beam, Precise, AP, Double Damage
Speed: 10
Turn: 2/90
Hull: 5
Damage: 40
Special Rules: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Scout, Self-Repair 1, Stealth 5+
In Service: Until 2261
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
none
sorry but I sometimes get carried away and type before I think!
Whats a Unbalanced Cry License?
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Half of the postings about this forum are what is wrong with the play balance of A Call to Arms. It's either "This fleet needs this to be fair", or "I should get more wings per patrol point" of that, or "I should have more guns or hull or damage", or "The whatchamacallit is just busted" of the other. Heck, it's all that some of us ever do (I might be exactly such a suspect.). And it's not like it isn't valid; it's part of the reason there's going to be a 2e in the first place.
I'm saying that if people post ships as balanced when they are not, future posts might be taken as ... well ... less than pertinent.
I'm saying that if people post ships as balanced when they are not, future posts might be taken as ... well ... less than pertinent.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
In reference to what we're trying to solve (I think): we should draw up a requirements document ... just like any managed project. For the Shadows our requirements are:
-- Skirmish level
-- Combat capable
-- Uses all Shadow Specific rules
-- Maintains fleet look and feel
-- Not too abusive as an initiative sink
And maybe:
-- Balanced against as many ships as reasonable
We don't want this ship rock-paper-scissors .... or do we? Just confirming.
The Vorlon is where we have a more difficult decision, because it sounds like we are actually talking about two ships:
Ship1:
-- Skirmish level
-- Combat capable
-- Uses all Vorlon Specific rules
-- Maintains fleet look and feel
-- Balanced against as many ships as reasonable
Ship 2:
-- Combat capable
-- Scout
-- Uses all Vorlon Specific rules
-- Maintains fleet look and feel
-- Does not unbalance the rest of the Vorlon fleet or is relatively easy to kill to remove any such issue before it gets bad
Am I right so far? Feel free to add requirements. That'll get us to our ship.
I am becoming slowly convinced that good ship balance can be done in the same phases as IT development:
-- Requirements (what issues are we addressing)
-- Design (you actually just skip this step here -- my lone asymmetry.)
-- Code (create ship)
-- Unit Test (Triggy's kind of math analysis to make sure balance is at least close)
-- Code Walkthrough (show ship design peers what you've got to get their input)
-- Functional test (run one-on-one fights vs. same priority ships and test for balance)
-- System test (run fleets of only this vs. opponents and test for balance)
-- Integration test (run fleets with these in them vs. opponents)
-- User Acceptance test (run fleets with these in them vs. opponents in the obscure scenarios, like Ambush, Planetary Assault, and Assassination.)
-- Production (Release in 2nd edition)
So, let's rip through Requirements. A full such discussion probably deserves its own thread, and not spam this one.
-- Skirmish level
-- Combat capable
-- Uses all Shadow Specific rules
-- Maintains fleet look and feel
-- Not too abusive as an initiative sink
And maybe:
-- Balanced against as many ships as reasonable
We don't want this ship rock-paper-scissors .... or do we? Just confirming.
The Vorlon is where we have a more difficult decision, because it sounds like we are actually talking about two ships:
Ship1:
-- Skirmish level
-- Combat capable
-- Uses all Vorlon Specific rules
-- Maintains fleet look and feel
-- Balanced against as many ships as reasonable
Ship 2:
-- Combat capable
-- Scout
-- Uses all Vorlon Specific rules
-- Maintains fleet look and feel
-- Does not unbalance the rest of the Vorlon fleet or is relatively easy to kill to remove any such issue before it gets bad
Am I right so far? Feel free to add requirements. That'll get us to our ship.
I am becoming slowly convinced that good ship balance can be done in the same phases as IT development:
-- Requirements (what issues are we addressing)
-- Design (you actually just skip this step here -- my lone asymmetry.)
-- Code (create ship)
-- Unit Test (Triggy's kind of math analysis to make sure balance is at least close)
-- Code Walkthrough (show ship design peers what you've got to get their input)
-- Functional test (run one-on-one fights vs. same priority ships and test for balance)
-- System test (run fleets of only this vs. opponents and test for balance)
-- Integration test (run fleets with these in them vs. opponents)
-- User Acceptance test (run fleets with these in them vs. opponents in the obscure scenarios, like Ambush, Planetary Assault, and Assassination.)
-- Production (Release in 2nd edition)
So, let's rip through Requirements. A full such discussion probably deserves its own thread, and not spam this one.
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Whilst I can understand peoples annoyance about being repeatedly told that this or that will be fixed in 2e...
Perhaps you'd prefer to be told something like this:
"2e won't be used to change or update the rules or stats at all but just to combine all the existing rules into a single book.
We will then produce a series of expensive hardbacked rules suppliments which will systematically and subtly change the rules bit by bit until they bear no relation to the original.
To maximise the amount of paper used, and rack up the price more every supplement will reprint the all the ship stats which will be randomly and pointlessly changed in some cases from supplement to supplement. These changes will not stated at any point other than on the ship stats itself.
Further more anyone caught playing a game without the latest rules or ship stats will be hunted down by the Mongoose rules police..."
Sorry it just seemed the most inconsequential thing to be complaining about, when you ccould have things much worse...
Nick
Perhaps you'd prefer to be told something like this:
"2e won't be used to change or update the rules or stats at all but just to combine all the existing rules into a single book.
We will then produce a series of expensive hardbacked rules suppliments which will systematically and subtly change the rules bit by bit until they bear no relation to the original.
To maximise the amount of paper used, and rack up the price more every supplement will reprint the all the ship stats which will be randomly and pointlessly changed in some cases from supplement to supplement. These changes will not stated at any point other than on the ship stats itself.
Further more anyone caught playing a game without the latest rules or ship stats will be hunted down by the Mongoose rules police..."
Sorry it just seemed the most inconsequential thing to be complaining about, when you ccould have things much worse...
Nick
No I'd prefer to be told 2e will be 2e when it is released, but for now lets just stick to discussing 1e. Except for this thread of course, which is about 2e. In other threads, I don't really give 2 hoots about 2e, whatever may or may not be in it is completely inconsequential to the game as it stands today.captainsmirk said:
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Pauly_D said:
Sarcasm is a wonderful thing, even if it doesn't always make it across the void of the internet...
If Mongoose actually stated what I wrote above as its business plan I don't think it would have many players left...
@Burger, true, but I can imagine your comments in other threads getting just as annoying as the "it'll be fixed 2e" statements themselves...
Nick
