Problems with Vree
- Thread starter jedimasterwiggy
- Start date
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Interesting. Might try that, I do have a brace of Primus models to use...
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
That only worked on the press secretary in the E-C war weekend. Triggy is far too clean-cut and healthy for that... 
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
No fighters, no beams, no real use for it except assaulting planets...
Greetings,
As a Vree player since the day I started playing the game, I would like to pipe in here. Earlier in this thread, I was reading that several Vree ships are "broken" (ie Xaar, Xonn etc). This is incorrect! Yes, the Vree have a lot of DD and a few TD weapons. Yes the Vree have turreted weapons. Yes the Vree have SM ships)
HOWEVER, all and I do mean ALL of their weapons are subject to interception! (if you are Vree...DON'T fight the Abbai!). Also, their damage is too much on the low side. Really folks...show me any other BATTLE level ship with 35 damage points??
People were also saying the the Vree were "born again hard in 2E". I disagree, STRONGLY disagree. Our weapons ranges were reduced (Torps from 30" to 25"/Shredders from 20" to 15"). This while most every single races ships had their main gun ranges increased?? The range reduction hurt the Vree in so many ways. None more than forcing you to get closer (with weaker hulls) just to hit with your torps). I know...cost of doing business...BS!
Lets talk about hulls here. The Vree have 2 only 2 ships with a hull 5 (1 patrol and 1 raid/not counting fighters). They have 3 ships with hull 6 (2 battle and 1 war). EVERYTHING else is hull 4 or less. WTF is up with that??? I understand that most Vree ships are built off the Xorr hull. OK, fine. But really?? What the hell is going on when I can loose two scouts in ONE volley of E-mines from a Narn? In one turn??? Hull strength/damage MUST be addressed!
Now I know that luck play a part in things. I will agree that I (personally) have been very lucky at tourneys (lots of 6's). However, I have never note NEVER won verses Centauri (no matter fleet composition, tactics, enemy commander, etc). NEVER!
My last two battles vs Centauri were a 8 point raid carrier clash and a 6 point raid space superiority. I was unable to kill ANYTHING of his ships (not even a fighter!!!) in EITHER game!
Now, I know that I'm going to get all kinds of crap from people telling me this and that. That's fine. If it makes sense, I'll pay attention. If not, I won't. BUT, I feel I need to speak up. So many people complain about how "overpowering" the Vree are. I think that the Vree are a very good race.
However these problems need to be addressed. I feel confident that if you were to take a poll of Vree players, you would have almost the same comments about hull damage, weapons ranges, etc. that I mentioned here. Now, I know that every race can make the same complaints. But the Vree are getting a raw deal from everyone in these threads.
So, I look forward to Mongoose revamping the Vree even more...cause of complaints from people. I look forward to having my weapon ranges cut even more...my AD reduced, My damage lowered even more. All because a few vocal people convince Mongoose to do so.
If I sound sarcastic and cynical, it is cause I am! I have seen what happens to fleets on this forum, then I see the results in S&P when said fleets are hurt even more.
Well, there you have it. I could say more, but I feel that no one at this company gives a damm about the "little people" that buy their products and play their games. Of course, most of that comes from the fact that I am still waiting for more that 4 months for 3 Fragging minis to come in...still!!
OK, let the Garibaldi bashing begin.
As a Vree player since the day I started playing the game, I would like to pipe in here. Earlier in this thread, I was reading that several Vree ships are "broken" (ie Xaar, Xonn etc). This is incorrect! Yes, the Vree have a lot of DD and a few TD weapons. Yes the Vree have turreted weapons. Yes the Vree have SM ships)
HOWEVER, all and I do mean ALL of their weapons are subject to interception! (if you are Vree...DON'T fight the Abbai!). Also, their damage is too much on the low side. Really folks...show me any other BATTLE level ship with 35 damage points??
People were also saying the the Vree were "born again hard in 2E". I disagree, STRONGLY disagree. Our weapons ranges were reduced (Torps from 30" to 25"/Shredders from 20" to 15"). This while most every single races ships had their main gun ranges increased?? The range reduction hurt the Vree in so many ways. None more than forcing you to get closer (with weaker hulls) just to hit with your torps). I know...cost of doing business...BS!
Lets talk about hulls here. The Vree have 2 only 2 ships with a hull 5 (1 patrol and 1 raid/not counting fighters). They have 3 ships with hull 6 (2 battle and 1 war). EVERYTHING else is hull 4 or less. WTF is up with that??? I understand that most Vree ships are built off the Xorr hull. OK, fine. But really?? What the hell is going on when I can loose two scouts in ONE volley of E-mines from a Narn? In one turn??? Hull strength/damage MUST be addressed!
Now I know that luck play a part in things. I will agree that I (personally) have been very lucky at tourneys (lots of 6's). However, I have never note NEVER won verses Centauri (no matter fleet composition, tactics, enemy commander, etc). NEVER!
My last two battles vs Centauri were a 8 point raid carrier clash and a 6 point raid space superiority. I was unable to kill ANYTHING of his ships (not even a fighter!!!) in EITHER game!
Now, I know that I'm going to get all kinds of crap from people telling me this and that. That's fine. If it makes sense, I'll pay attention. If not, I won't. BUT, I feel I need to speak up. So many people complain about how "overpowering" the Vree are. I think that the Vree are a very good race.
However these problems need to be addressed. I feel confident that if you were to take a poll of Vree players, you would have almost the same comments about hull damage, weapons ranges, etc. that I mentioned here. Now, I know that every race can make the same complaints. But the Vree are getting a raw deal from everyone in these threads.
So, I look forward to Mongoose revamping the Vree even more...cause of complaints from people. I look forward to having my weapon ranges cut even more...my AD reduced, My damage lowered even more. All because a few vocal people convince Mongoose to do so.
If I sound sarcastic and cynical, it is cause I am! I have seen what happens to fleets on this forum, then I see the results in S&P when said fleets are hurt even more.
Well, there you have it. I could say more, but I feel that no one at this company gives a damm about the "little people" that buy their products and play their games. Of course, most of that comes from the fact that I am still waiting for more that 4 months for 3 Fragging minis to come in...still!!
OK, let the Garibaldi bashing begin.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
The Vree always hit hard and died easy in 1st edition. Why should that change in 2nd?
CZuschlag
Mongoose
OK, as I was the one to cast the first stone, I'll go first; the Xonn is at best overbuilt and at worst, busted. Here's my argument.
You'll get no disagreement from most players that the Dilgar Tikrit is one of the most hideous cruiser-killers out there. 18 dice of Bolter will do that to you; it's a hail of fire that most Raid ships won't withstand, especially if it gets the 12 dice of Pulsar to go with it. On CAF, it gets far worse, and is MoD enabled. Let's see its average Yield against Hull 5 and 6 on CAF and without, a 50:50 shot at each:
(Missiles, as they Slow-Load, are counted for half)
.................Straight...............Concentrate..............Average
Hull 5:.......33.700......................51.561....................42.630
Hull 6:.......21.428......................36.238....................28.833
And, it is more than capable of getting its shot; speed 10 and 1/45 (not lumbering) gives it an edge.
How can we justify this massive ship firepower as fair? Let's try.
Well, it's Battle-level, and very killable: no defensive systems, Hull 5, and slightly small for a Battle-level hull (44:48). Only the Tinashi (-6), Dargan (-4), Apollo (-6), Lakara (-2), Shadow Stalker (-14), and Hunter (-2) are standard vessels that are smaller (I am incorporating Dodge and Adaptive Armour in this calculation, which is why you don't see the Liati or the Vorlon Destroyer, or some others). Each one of these has a mitigating defensive system as well to help --- the Tinashi, Dargan, and Hunter have powerful Stealth systems, the Lakara and Stalker have shields (although neither is really very good when all is said and done), and the Apollo and Lakara have the very useful Interceptor system. Furthermore, every one of these ships except the Tinashi and Dargan is Hull 6. Only one Battle-level ship has Hull 4, the bizarre Ma'cu, but it has a powerful GEG 3 system.
The point? The Tikrit is the easiest-to-kill Battle-level ship out there. The description of the ship is a purebred Heavy Battlecruiser. Heck, it might as well be named the Derfflinger or the Tiger. High impact, high speed, not very survivable.
It's balanced under the idea of kill it before it kills you.
Fine. Let's just assume that's fair. Who knows .... the Tikrit might be considered broken on its own! I doubt anyone will claim the Tikrit is a bad ship....
Enter the Xonn. Let's look at its damage output (and remember for that average .... it can CaF 66% of the time ... Telepathy!):
.................Straight...............Concentrate..............Average
Hull 5:........39.979....................46.275....................44.176
Hull 6:........25.777....................32.878....................30.511
Fearsome, even slightly superior to the Tikrit! But it could be balanced. Perhaps it is killable, just like the Tikrit!
Hmm ... Hull 6? ... 15% larger? .... has access to Super Manoeuverable? Telepathy?!?!
To counter this, the Dilgar get 2 Thoruns against a ship with Antifighter 6.
What would folks say if the Tikrit had a Turret arc on its Heavy Bolters, and Hull 6? I've got a pretty good idea.
So, is the Xonn fair?
Three B's.
Balanced?
Bulls**t!
Busted.
I await return fire.
You'll get no disagreement from most players that the Dilgar Tikrit is one of the most hideous cruiser-killers out there. 18 dice of Bolter will do that to you; it's a hail of fire that most Raid ships won't withstand, especially if it gets the 12 dice of Pulsar to go with it. On CAF, it gets far worse, and is MoD enabled. Let's see its average Yield against Hull 5 and 6 on CAF and without, a 50:50 shot at each:
(Missiles, as they Slow-Load, are counted for half)
.................Straight...............Concentrate..............Average
Hull 5:.......33.700......................51.561....................42.630
Hull 6:.......21.428......................36.238....................28.833
And, it is more than capable of getting its shot; speed 10 and 1/45 (not lumbering) gives it an edge.
How can we justify this massive ship firepower as fair? Let's try.
Well, it's Battle-level, and very killable: no defensive systems, Hull 5, and slightly small for a Battle-level hull (44:48). Only the Tinashi (-6), Dargan (-4), Apollo (-6), Lakara (-2), Shadow Stalker (-14), and Hunter (-2) are standard vessels that are smaller (I am incorporating Dodge and Adaptive Armour in this calculation, which is why you don't see the Liati or the Vorlon Destroyer, or some others). Each one of these has a mitigating defensive system as well to help --- the Tinashi, Dargan, and Hunter have powerful Stealth systems, the Lakara and Stalker have shields (although neither is really very good when all is said and done), and the Apollo and Lakara have the very useful Interceptor system. Furthermore, every one of these ships except the Tinashi and Dargan is Hull 6. Only one Battle-level ship has Hull 4, the bizarre Ma'cu, but it has a powerful GEG 3 system.
The point? The Tikrit is the easiest-to-kill Battle-level ship out there. The description of the ship is a purebred Heavy Battlecruiser. Heck, it might as well be named the Derfflinger or the Tiger. High impact, high speed, not very survivable.
It's balanced under the idea of kill it before it kills you.
Fine. Let's just assume that's fair. Who knows .... the Tikrit might be considered broken on its own! I doubt anyone will claim the Tikrit is a bad ship....
Enter the Xonn. Let's look at its damage output (and remember for that average .... it can CaF 66% of the time ... Telepathy!):
.................Straight...............Concentrate..............Average
Hull 5:........39.979....................46.275....................44.176
Hull 6:........25.777....................32.878....................30.511
Fearsome, even slightly superior to the Tikrit! But it could be balanced. Perhaps it is killable, just like the Tikrit!
Hmm ... Hull 6? ... 15% larger? .... has access to Super Manoeuverable? Telepathy?!?!
To counter this, the Dilgar get 2 Thoruns against a ship with Antifighter 6.
What would folks say if the Tikrit had a Turret arc on its Heavy Bolters, and Hull 6? I've got a pretty good idea.
So, is the Xonn fair?
Three B's.
Balanced?
Bulls**t!
Busted.
I await return fire.
the xonn is fine as a battle level ship, lose an arc its out of weapons. thats a serious weakness. it also doesnt have MoD. and has max range 15 where your Tikrit has longer range torps. so these things balance out.
in answer to garibaldis post:
the vree are far from weak. hull 4 is no problem against beams and at range 25 thats the sort of weapon that reaches out to you so this is fine.
you should also note that whilst range has gone down on one weapon AD has gone up:
Xill 1e antimatter cannon 6AD, 2e 8 dice
Xill 1e shredder 1e 4AD, 2e 10AD
also the anti matter cannon in 1e was single damage but now its double damage, added into the extra AD and thats awesome.
you should also note that your torps have gone from DD to TD as well, again increasing their effectiveness.
I use a vree fleet, they are very dangerous and are certainly not as bad as you state. I also do not think they are broken as other state. maybe the carrier just needs its AD down to 4.
in answer to garibaldis post:
the vree are far from weak. hull 4 is no problem against beams and at range 25 thats the sort of weapon that reaches out to you so this is fine.
you should also note that whilst range has gone down on one weapon AD has gone up:
Xill 1e antimatter cannon 6AD, 2e 8 dice
Xill 1e shredder 1e 4AD, 2e 10AD
also the anti matter cannon in 1e was single damage but now its double damage, added into the extra AD and thats awesome.
you should also note that your torps have gone from DD to TD as well, again increasing their effectiveness.
I use a vree fleet, they are very dangerous and are certainly not as bad as you state. I also do not think they are broken as other state. maybe the carrier just needs its AD down to 4.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Whilst I would agree that BOTH are hideously nasty ships I would have to disagree as to declaring EITHER of them broken and certainly on the grounds of noting the Xonn as any worse:
Firstly:
Speed and strike range:
The Tikrit is 3" faster and has a signifigat range advantage as well with its missiles being range 24. Overall though the range difference isnt that big a deal as both ships need to get in fairly close to use ALL their weapons.
It's also worth noting that whilst yes, the Vree ship is super manueverable if it wants to use this ability it's slowed to a paltry 3.5" of movement and with it's relatively short range most ships will just run away from it given the chance!
Secondly:
'Missiles are slow loading so count for half' sorry but that's flat wrong in my book. In the long run a slow loading weapon DOES of course have half the damage output of such a weapon without SL but given the way ACTA works and how damage is resolved sequentially the more important factor is the damage potential of that initial volley and you have to factor the potency of that big alpha strike capability in.
The Tikrit, any way you choose to look at it, HUGELY outguns the Xonn.
Now as for surviveability, the Xonn is tough but it's nowhere near as tough as most battle level ships. And again is crucially lacking in long range firepower, speed or active defences (anti fighter asside). It's also worth noting that those two throus whilst no big deal in the strike role can be used as 2 interceptors too.....
Lastly as far as racial traits go:
Yes Telepathy is very nice, however I would say that it still doesnt compare to Masters of Destruction and Pentacons. Masters of Destruction is in my book HUGELY understimated whenever people analyse the Dilgar fleet. Statistically it's not that huge a boost but you have to remember that every time it comes into play its a CRIT that's also getting trippled (or doubled in the case of a pulsar) which often means HUGELY increased damge from the volley rather than just a slight boost. Quite frankly MoD is in my books at times borderline broken in itself not so much for the potency on average but for the increased impact of luck crits often leading to dilgar winning games on that one lucky roll even more so than most races (again not so much a dilgar issue as an issue with the crit system in my eyes but MOD magnifies the problem in much the same way as fielding swarms of ships like the Saggitarius or Demos tend to).
Oh and as for Pentacons, dont forget that this tends to give the Dilgar fleet as a whole more of a big alpha strike ability than most other fleets. Granted any can use that size of squadron now but Dilgar can lessent the initiative penatly when they do so and thats BIG.
My overall point is that the whole ehtos of the Dilgar fleet is for massive initial strikes that totally destroy their target, and that alone means that counting the missiles half because of slow loading is selling them short at best.
Overall frankly I dont think the Tikrit is actuall worth taking generally anyway though to be frank. I cant ever see myself using one over 2 Tagraths in any case, and tend to think the larger dilgar ships actually tend to be a tad TOO fragile.
But I dont think the Xonn is broken by any means, nasty yes, broken, no.
Firstly:
Speed and strike range:
The Tikrit is 3" faster and has a signifigat range advantage as well with its missiles being range 24. Overall though the range difference isnt that big a deal as both ships need to get in fairly close to use ALL their weapons.
It's also worth noting that whilst yes, the Vree ship is super manueverable if it wants to use this ability it's slowed to a paltry 3.5" of movement and with it's relatively short range most ships will just run away from it given the chance!
Secondly:
'Missiles are slow loading so count for half' sorry but that's flat wrong in my book. In the long run a slow loading weapon DOES of course have half the damage output of such a weapon without SL but given the way ACTA works and how damage is resolved sequentially the more important factor is the damage potential of that initial volley and you have to factor the potency of that big alpha strike capability in.
The Tikrit, any way you choose to look at it, HUGELY outguns the Xonn.
Now as for surviveability, the Xonn is tough but it's nowhere near as tough as most battle level ships. And again is crucially lacking in long range firepower, speed or active defences (anti fighter asside). It's also worth noting that those two throus whilst no big deal in the strike role can be used as 2 interceptors too.....
Lastly as far as racial traits go:
Yes Telepathy is very nice, however I would say that it still doesnt compare to Masters of Destruction and Pentacons. Masters of Destruction is in my book HUGELY understimated whenever people analyse the Dilgar fleet. Statistically it's not that huge a boost but you have to remember that every time it comes into play its a CRIT that's also getting trippled (or doubled in the case of a pulsar) which often means HUGELY increased damge from the volley rather than just a slight boost. Quite frankly MoD is in my books at times borderline broken in itself not so much for the potency on average but for the increased impact of luck crits often leading to dilgar winning games on that one lucky roll even more so than most races (again not so much a dilgar issue as an issue with the crit system in my eyes but MOD magnifies the problem in much the same way as fielding swarms of ships like the Saggitarius or Demos tend to).
Oh and as for Pentacons, dont forget that this tends to give the Dilgar fleet as a whole more of a big alpha strike ability than most other fleets. Granted any can use that size of squadron now but Dilgar can lessent the initiative penatly when they do so and thats BIG.
My overall point is that the whole ehtos of the Dilgar fleet is for massive initial strikes that totally destroy their target, and that alone means that counting the missiles half because of slow loading is selling them short at best.
Overall frankly I dont think the Tikrit is actuall worth taking generally anyway though to be frank. I cant ever see myself using one over 2 Tagraths in any case, and tend to think the larger dilgar ships actually tend to be a tad TOO fragile.
But I dont think the Xonn is broken by any means, nasty yes, broken, no.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Tolwyn said:
Ok now the Xeel, I may give you, that one IS starting to wander into broken territory.
5 point raid fleet of 10 Xeel for example. For starters thats 40 Tzymms which is unbelievably sick to start with and then the ships themselves pack not incosiderable firepower for a skirmish ship (theyve got better guns than a rail hyperions main cannon (granted they cant engage multiple targets but they ARE turreted so you will always get that shot as long as youre in range (and theyre not that slow either and are SM of course!)
CZuschlag
Mongoose
To those who have issue with my counting of slow-loading I offer the below table which assumes the "on" turn vs. the "off" turn:
All missiles hot:
.................Straight............Concentrate............Average
Hull 5:.......36.067..................55.112.................45.590
Hull 6:.......23.006..................38.865.................30.936
... which only matches the Xonn, barely exceeding by a point of damage on average.
To those who claim Masters of Destruction balances this out, the above calculations include the effects of Masters of Destruction. And, actually, Masters of Destruction is a big statistical deal, too --- it accounts for approximately 20% of the Dilgar firepower, and here counts for 20.032% of the firepower (as measured against an UnCAFed strike against Hull 5). That's statistically a big deal.
To those who point out the arc weakness, yes, but if the Dilgar loses the Front Arc on the Tikrit, it's all but over as well. And, of course, if the loss comes by way of the 4-6 crit, the Vree are more likely to repair it (Telepathy!)
To those who cite that the Dilgar outranges the Vree, I note that the above includes the Dilgar's Range-8 Pulsars, whereas the Vree's shortest-ranged weapon is the Range-10 Shredder, so the numbers could be far less for the Dilgar. The difference in weapons that you deal with between 8 and 10 is large -- Dilgar Light Pulsars, Drakh Raiders, Abbai Quad Arrays, Narn light batteries, EA Light Pulse and some Plasma Cannons, Phasing Pulse Cannon, Drazi Particle Blasters can all be so finessed (easy to do with SM).
To those who note you must go under half speed while under SM, I note that you can go Backwards and still CaF, and, if you know what you want to do next turn, you'll almost never get so caught.
To those who note that ships will run away, I note that people can run THROUGH (by APtE) a Dilgar Bolter fire cone the same way.
To those who note the speed difference, I note a turn rate of 90 degrees vs. 45, for a Come About you get half the time for a full 180 degrees, and are 50% more likely to succeed (Telepathy yet again!)
>>
On a totally different note, the more I look at it, the more I'm certain that the Dilgar Tikrit is a good ship. When I started work on the tables above, it simply didn't occur to me just how large the numbers above are. I mean, that's a fifty-frickin'-five up there. Let's put this in scope, folks --- this is enormous firepower. The above translates, to, on average, killing a Hyperion not on CBD every turn, even through its Interceptors system. If he CBD's, and the Xonn or Tikrit CaFs, they may actually explode his ship on his buddies in one shot, on their own. That's sick firepower, and both these ships have it in spades. These two are the best cruiser-killers in the game.
I just claim that one is VASTLY superior to the other.
All missiles hot:
.................Straight............Concentrate............Average
Hull 5:.......36.067..................55.112.................45.590
Hull 6:.......23.006..................38.865.................30.936
... which only matches the Xonn, barely exceeding by a point of damage on average.
To those who claim Masters of Destruction balances this out, the above calculations include the effects of Masters of Destruction. And, actually, Masters of Destruction is a big statistical deal, too --- it accounts for approximately 20% of the Dilgar firepower, and here counts for 20.032% of the firepower (as measured against an UnCAFed strike against Hull 5). That's statistically a big deal.
To those who point out the arc weakness, yes, but if the Dilgar loses the Front Arc on the Tikrit, it's all but over as well. And, of course, if the loss comes by way of the 4-6 crit, the Vree are more likely to repair it (Telepathy!)
To those who cite that the Dilgar outranges the Vree, I note that the above includes the Dilgar's Range-8 Pulsars, whereas the Vree's shortest-ranged weapon is the Range-10 Shredder, so the numbers could be far less for the Dilgar. The difference in weapons that you deal with between 8 and 10 is large -- Dilgar Light Pulsars, Drakh Raiders, Abbai Quad Arrays, Narn light batteries, EA Light Pulse and some Plasma Cannons, Phasing Pulse Cannon, Drazi Particle Blasters can all be so finessed (easy to do with SM).
To those who note you must go under half speed while under SM, I note that you can go Backwards and still CaF, and, if you know what you want to do next turn, you'll almost never get so caught.
To those who note that ships will run away, I note that people can run THROUGH (by APtE) a Dilgar Bolter fire cone the same way.
To those who note the speed difference, I note a turn rate of 90 degrees vs. 45, for a Come About you get half the time for a full 180 degrees, and are 50% more likely to succeed (Telepathy yet again!)
>>
On a totally different note, the more I look at it, the more I'm certain that the Dilgar Tikrit is a good ship. When I started work on the tables above, it simply didn't occur to me just how large the numbers above are. I mean, that's a fifty-frickin'-five up there. Let's put this in scope, folks --- this is enormous firepower. The above translates, to, on average, killing a Hyperion not on CBD every turn, even through its Interceptors system. If he CBD's, and the Xonn or Tikrit CaFs, they may actually explode his ship on his buddies in one shot, on their own. That's sick firepower, and both these ships have it in spades. These two are the best cruiser-killers in the game.
I just claim that one is VASTLY superior to the other.
the tikrit doesnt lose all weapons to a lose arc crit, still has aft and turrets.
as was mentioned earlier the tikrit has fighters which are useful for interceptors.
whilst on DD ships perhaps we should also bring in the centauri secondus which has similar systems to both the mentioned ships.
hull 5: 25.3 average
hull 6: about 15 damage
not so good compared to either of these ships previousely mentioned.
but then it does have side arcs and a rear arc but not as good rear as the tikrit.
you can compare alot of ships and get results which support your argument, the xonn is a good ship but not broken. also add them into fleets. as one person mentioned the xonn is only 1 of 3 ships that have hull 6 in the entire vree fleet. most their ships have hull 4 which will really suffer against the dilgar.
as was mentioned earlier the tikrit has fighters which are useful for interceptors.
whilst on DD ships perhaps we should also bring in the centauri secondus which has similar systems to both the mentioned ships.
hull 5: 25.3 average
hull 6: about 15 damage
not so good compared to either of these ships previousely mentioned.
but then it does have side arcs and a rear arc but not as good rear as the tikrit.
you can compare alot of ships and get results which support your argument, the xonn is a good ship but not broken. also add them into fleets. as one person mentioned the xonn is only 1 of 3 ships that have hull 6 in the entire vree fleet. most their ships have hull 4 which will really suffer against the dilgar.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
That's easy .... when we finally get the fleet point breakdown scale fixed (finally!), take Xills, Xaars, and Xonns.
I'm very willing to wager that in battles of 6 Battle composed of nothing but Xonns and Tikrits, the Vree will win 7 out of 10 battles. I personally think the line is 7.5 wins.
I'm very willing to wager that in battles of 6 Battle composed of nothing but Xonns and Tikrits, the Vree will win 7 out of 10 battles. I personally think the line is 7.5 wins.
but then thats comparing 2 ships directly again. you could say that in 6 battle tikrit v secundus the tikrit wins 7 of 10 or closer to 7.5, maybe more due to the missiles.
thats 48 missiles coming from 6 tikrits 1st turn before either the vree or centauri could fire, ok it only averages 16 hits unless CAFed but thats 16 DD hits before the enemy get a chance to fire.
ships are differant, this is just one way of showing it. you could of course give every ship the same weapons, same dam/crew, same stats but then it would be boring. very balanced but boring.
thats 48 missiles coming from 6 tikrits 1st turn before either the vree or centauri could fire, ok it only averages 16 hits unless CAFed but thats 16 DD hits before the enemy get a chance to fire.
ships are differant, this is just one way of showing it. you could of course give every ship the same weapons, same dam/crew, same stats but then it would be boring. very balanced but boring.
