Problem with B5 Traveller?

[aspqrz]

I've just been reading through the B5 Traveller Book and have discovered what seems to be a major problem ...

The section on Hyperspace Travel on pp. #93-95

There are no comprehensible rules for this. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

1) According to what is written, ships that use Hyperspace Gates take time in Hyperspace per the table at the bottom of page #95 ... but that Table only tells you how long they can stay in Hyperspace. :shock:

There is no indication as to what "speed" they travel at in terms of (say) LY/hour (or day, or whatever). :shock:

And the example, as written, doesn't even agree with the Table anyway! :wink:

2) There is some indication that ships may use internal Jump Point Generators and achieve Hyperspace insertion and that they then get a "Jump Rating" for Hyperspace purposes.

But there are no rules ... none ... that indicate how this works. How do you determine how far/fast or how long it takes for a JPG equipped ship to travel any given distance? No indication. Squat.

The meaning free example mentioned above seems to indicate that there is some effect, but does exactly ... you guessed it ... squat ... to suggest exactly what.

So, how does Hyperspace Travel work in B5?

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

As written, it doesn't.

Always accepting, of course, that I haven't been having a d'oh moment and haven't missed some obvious (or obscure) comment/table/rule right in front of my eyes.

 

[Loz]

The example on page 95 should have been deleted. It refers to an earlier table that was changed. You have my apologies for that.

A ship's time in hyperspace is variable depending on the jump route it takes. The table on page 95 gives those times, irrespective of the ship using the Jump Gate. So, a ship using a Major Jump route between two systems takes 1d3 days. It might take 1 day on the way there and 3 on the way back; as the text says, hyperspace is volatile and subject to enormous gravitational forces. Navigational skills (as described in the Hyperspace Hazards table, same page) may increase that time.

But yes, the example's wrong. Please ignore it.

 

[aspqrz]

The example on page 95 should have been deleted. It refers to an earlier table that was changed. You have my apologies for that.

A ship's time in hyperspace is variable depending on the jump route it takes. The table on page 95 gives those times, irrespective of the ship using the Jump Gate. So, a ship using a Major Jump route between two systems takes 1d3 days. It might take 1 day on the way there and 3 on the way back; as the text says, hyperspace is volatile and subject to enormous gravitational forces. Navigational skills (as described in the Hyperspace Hazards table, same page) may increase that time.

But yes, the example's wrong. Please ignore it.

Ok.

That helps with the example.

But what about the Sidebar on Page #94?

Where it mentions a "Jump 3 Generator"?

And refers to "an additional 10 tons of fuel needs to be dedicated for every Jump rating the ship is capable of ..."?

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Ignore those as well?

Which then begs the question ...

At what speed do ships with a Jump Point Generator travel ... OK, since "speed" doesn't seem to be relevant, how many days does it take them to travel between origin and destination?

Are they treated as a "Major" Jump Route? A "Minor" Jump Route? A "Restricted" Jump Route.

Pardon me for being picky :wink: a claim that they should be treated as "Travel Outside Jump Routes" = Referee's Discretion is ... just a tad, mind you ... unhelpful ...

A little less meaningless fluff text <sigh> and a little more actual workable rules would have been nice

(Of course, AFAICT, there don't seem to be any other major issues -- but, then, I am neither a fan of B5 :shock: nor have I even seen more than a few odd minutes here and there of any of the episodes :shock: :shock: , so I wouldn't be able to pick up on plot related thingies!

Phil

 

[lastbesthope]

All these problems with the B5 Traveller book that are cropping up are really putting me off buying it, and for a die hard B5 fan like me, that's serious!!!

LBH

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

The example on page 95 should have been deleted. It refers to an earlier table that was changed. You have my apologies for that.

A ship's time in hyperspace is variable depending on the jump route it takes. The table on page 95 gives those times, irrespective of the ship using the Jump Gate. So, a ship using a Major Jump route between two systems takes 1d3 days. It might take 1 day on the way there and 3 on the way back; as the text says, hyperspace is volatile and subject to enormous gravitational forces. Navigational skills (as described in the Hyperspace Hazards table, same page) may increase that time.

But yes, the example's wrong. Please ignore it.

Ok.

That helps with the example.

But what about the Sidebar on Page #94?

Where it mentions a "Jump 3 Generator"?

And refers to "an additional 10 tons of fuel needs to be dedicated for every Jump rating the ship is capable of ..."?

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Ignore those as well?

Which then begs the question ...

At what speed do ships with a Jump Point Generator travel ... OK, since "speed" doesn't seem to be relevant, how many days does it take them to travel between origin and destination?

Are they treated as a "Major" Jump Route? A "Minor" Jump Route? A "Restricted" Jump Route.

Pardon me for being picky :wink: a claim that they should be treated as "Travel Outside Jump Routes" = Referee's Discretion is ... just a tad, mind you ... unhelpful ...

A little less meaningless fluff text <sigh> and a little more actual workable rules would have been nice

(Of course, AFAICT, there don't seem to be any other major issues -- but, then, I am neither a fan of B5 :shock: nor have I even seen more than a few odd minutes here and there of any of the episodes :shock: :shock: , so I wouldn't be able to pick up on plot related thingies!

Phil

In the B5 universe, even ships with their own jump engines don't often stray from the establised jump routes. The First Ones developed the jumpgates and hyperspace beacons as a means of safely traversing a jump.

A ship only really needs a jump drive as a strategic asset - it allows them jump in or out anywhere in a solar system instead of being forced to use the Jumpgate. Observe the Sol system - the Jumpgate is in orbit around Io, meaning anyone who doesn't have access to a jump drive and wants to go to Mars or Earth has to jump in there and travel in system using conventional drives. Similarly Babylon 5's Jump Gate is some distance away from the station both to allow enough time for ships to decelerate safely and to give the station time to prepare a defence if necessary.

 

[aspqrz]

The example on page 95 should have been deleted. It refers to an earlier table that was changed. You have my apologies for that.

A ship's time in hyperspace is variable depending on the jump route it takes. The table on page 95 gives those times, irrespective of the ship using the Jump Gate. So, a ship using a Major Jump route between two systems takes 1d3 days. It might take 1 day on the way there and 3 on the way back; as the text says, hyperspace is volatile and subject to enormous gravitational forces. Navigational skills (as described in the Hyperspace Hazards table, same page) may increase that time.

But yes, the example's wrong. Please ignore it.

Ok.

That helps with the example.

But what about the Sidebar on Page #94?

Where it mentions a "Jump 3 Generator"?

And refers to "an additional 10 tons of fuel needs to be dedicated for every Jump rating the ship is capable of ..."?

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Ignore those as well?

Which then begs the question ...

At what speed do ships with a Jump Point Generator travel ... OK, since "speed" doesn't seem to be relevant, how many days does it take them to travel between origin and destination?

Are they treated as a "Major" Jump Route? A "Minor" Jump Route? A "Restricted" Jump Route.

Pardon me for being picky :wink: a claim that they should be treated as "Travel Outside Jump Routes" = Referee's Discretion is ... just a tad, mind you ... unhelpful ...

A little less meaningless fluff text <sigh> and a little more actual workable rules would have been nice

(Of course, AFAICT, there don't seem to be any other major issues -- but, then, I am neither a fan of B5 :shock: nor have I even seen more than a few odd minutes here and there of any of the episodes :shock: :shock: , so I wouldn't be able to pick up on plot related thingies!

Phil

In the B5 universe, even ships with their own jump engines don't often stray from the establised jump routes. The First Ones developed the jumpgates and hyperspace beacons as a means of safely traversing a jump.

A ship only really needs a jump drive as a strategic asset - it allows them jump in or out anywhere in a solar system instead of being forced to use the Jumpgate. Observe the Sol system - the Jumpgate is in orbit around Io, meaning anyone who doesn't have access to a jump drive and wants to go to Mars or Earth has to jump in there and travel in system using conventional drives. Similarly Babylon 5's Jump Gate is some distance away from the station both to allow enough time for ships to decelerate safely and to give the station time to prepare a defence if necessary.

OK. I appreciate that. Really. I do.

But what about the reference to "Jump 3 Generators" and the additional 10% fuel for each additional Jump Number?

Do they actually mean anything or are they more poor proofreading?

Phil

 

[katadder]

All these problems with the B5 Traveller book that are cropping up are really putting me off buying it, and for a die hard B5 fan like me, that's serious!!!

LBH

am tending to agree here, been waiting for this for a while and still seems it was rushed with very poor editing (d20 stuff, old examples left in etc)

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Ok.

That helps with the example.

But what about the Sidebar on Page #94?

Where it mentions a "Jump 3 Generator"?

And refers to "an additional 10 tons of fuel needs to be dedicated for every Jump rating the ship is capable of ..."?

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Ignore those as well?

Which then begs the question ...

At what speed do ships with a Jump Point Generator travel ... OK, since "speed" doesn't seem to be relevant, how many days does it take them to travel between origin and destination?

Are they treated as a "Major" Jump Route? A "Minor" Jump Route? A "Restricted" Jump Route.

Pardon me for being picky :wink: a claim that they should be treated as "Travel Outside Jump Routes" = Referee's Discretion is ... just a tad, mind you ... unhelpful ...

A little less meaningless fluff text <sigh> and a little more actual workable rules would have been nice

(Of course, AFAICT, there don't seem to be any other major issues -- but, then, I am neither a fan of B5 :shock: nor have I even seen more than a few odd minutes here and there of any of the episodes :shock: :shock: , so I wouldn't be able to pick up on plot related thingies!

Phil

In the B5 universe, even ships with their own jump engines don't often stray from the establised jump routes. The First Ones developed the jumpgates and hyperspace beacons as a means of safely traversing a jump.

A ship only really needs a jump drive as a strategic asset - it allows them jump in or out anywhere in a solar system instead of being forced to use the Jumpgate. Observe the Sol system - the Jumpgate is in orbit around Io, meaning anyone who doesn't have access to a jump drive and wants to go to Mars or Earth has to jump in there and travel in system using conventional drives. Similarly Babylon 5's Jump Gate is some distance away from the station both to allow enough time for ships to decelerate safely and to give the station time to prepare a defence if necessary.

OK. I appreciate that. Really. I do.

But what about the reference to "Jump 3 Generators" and the additional 10% fuel for each additional Jump Number?

Do they actually mean anything or are they more poor proofreading?

Phil

I can't comment on that as I've not seen the book yet. Though in every bit of B5 Source material I've seen Jumpdrive is an either you have it or you don't bit of tech, and all it ever does is open holes between realspace and hyperspace. It certainly doesn't define the range or duration of a hyperspace journey.

 

[Cyphr]

Thanks for the information.

I agree my first understanding Trav B5 was to be a full sourcebook (setting background and game mechanics). What I'm reading is that it's 95%+ game mechanics.

The editing, proofreading, and d20->MGT issues are a concern, but not a biggie. Though considering this would be the first non-Traveller setting for the rules, this doesn't bode well, perception wise, for the other setting books in the works.

Overall it does dampen the my enthusiasm.

 

[lastbesthope]

Well I spoke to Matt regarding this and the other noticed problems with the B5 Trav book.

He said a download was more likely than a reprint.

LBH

 

[Stainless]

Well I spoke to Matt regarding this and the other noticed problems with the B5 Trav book.

He said a download was more likely than a reprint.

LBH

Lame.

 

[EDG]

This really isn't encouraging me to buy more Mongoose books. I don't really care how good any publisher is at fixing mistakes after the fact - I want hem to not make so many of them in the first place (and especially not to make so many of them that it necessitates an updated PDF of the whole book). Some errata is understandable but missing things off maps, completely screwing up tables of contents, and phantom rule references are inexcusable IMO.

 

[Stainless]

I agree with EDG here. I had no experience of Mongoose before they took on Traveller. Once that was announced, I read about people's opinions and it was not pretty; a lot of angst about poor proof-reading and printing. Well the printing issues went away and the design/proof-reading was fairly good for the Traveller main rule book. All looked promising for a turn around and a bright future. But since then, all I've seen is error and poor design/production to some degree in EVERY subsequent Traveller publication (granted they have a very generous return/substitution policy that I hope to take advantage of soon).

I now find myself very cautiously considering what Traveller books I will purchase, waiting for the inevitable fixed printing before buying, and generally not looking forward but thinking about how I can run Traveller with what I currently have and not buying anything more.

What does my opinion matter? Nothing, I agree. But where there's smoke there's fire. I am one cusomer who would have been a repeat customer, now turning away because of Mongoose's lack of quality control. Mongoose Traveller could have been an RPG legend, but is rapidly becoming just another salami sliced, rushed and mediocre game line. All very sad, and apparently becuase of, "I am Mongoose and so can you: Riches and Profits from RPGs", emphases mine.

 

[Terrible Tim]

These errors in the B5 Traveller book may be due to the print dead line - due to the B5 license finishing in June. This will not stop me from buying it. Attention people this is going to be one of the last B5 books ever printed......I am happy to download a PDF with a few of the errors fixed, no big deal. I am sure it will never happen again.

TT.

 

[mechascorpio]

Regretfully, I agree with some of these sentiments. I'm definitely done with direct pre-orders. Done, never again.

Further, I'm not even going to buy within the first 4 months of release any longer. The rest of you can beta test this stuff and I'll get it when the bugs are worked out. Or not. When I start to feel like I'm faling behind on releases, I could just as easily turn my attention to something else. With the economy being what it is, I've got to be more selective.

I do acknowledge the offers to make it right, and I appreciate (and have said so) how good that service is. But I'm not going to keep buying a book, only to be disappointed, pack it up and send it off to Ohio -- at my additional time and expense -- just to get what I expected the first time. Yes, I could just ignore it all, but it peeves me that the guy who buys it 6 months from now is getting a better product than I did, and may even have paid less.

Heck, I'm not even sure if these downloads and/or reprint are going to fix some of the other things that bug me, like the lovely graphics that look like they were snatched off of some B5 fan's AOL circa-1998 website. And AGAIN with the awful, Awful, AWFUL bitmappy deckplans. How could this book turn out so bad looking when compared to the B5 books I've bought over the past few years? I can deal with a few flubs and errata but, guys, a look at this book says you are on a downward trend.

I'm really unhappy about this. I've waited a week to say anything, but my disappointment has not faded. I expected this book to be the one that would really open up Mongoose Traveller to be something special, something more than just a shiny approach to a 30 year old game. Instead, this book looks like a fanzine and gives me little hope that Mongoose can really broaden this game.

When I find myself agreeing with the naysayers, something's wrong. In fact, I'm starting to think at this point that I have everything I need from MGT, and Mongoose has everything it need$ from me. Except this is a game, and I'm not having fun with it.

 

[whtknght]

These comments are not boding well. I am already disappointed with Scouts. These comments make me think that I will also be disappointed with Universe of B5.

I am thinking of canceling my pre-ordered copy from amazon and wait till I can thumb through it at my LGS before deciding if I want to buy it.

 

[Da Boss]

The preview etc seem to compare badly with the previously printed D20 books - esp the main rulebook I have - which is full colour and full of useful stuff (even if I don't like D20)

Sadly I do understand that this is a book at the very end of the licence and with a very limited shelf life so I can understand the slightly more limited version that seems to have been produced.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Thanks for the information.

I agree my first understanding Trav B5 was to be a full sourcebook (setting background and game mechanics). What I'm reading is that it's 95%+ game mechanics.

The editing, proofreading, and d20->MGT issues are a concern, but not a biggie. Though considering this would be the first non-Traveller setting for the rules, this doesn't bode well, perception wise, for the other setting books in the works.

Overall it does dampen the my enthusiasm.

It's not really that bad actually. I think the fluff stuff is just fine (which is why it doesn't get complained about). It is the rules parts that seem to be messed up a bit.

 

[Loz]

Fixes for the hyperspace rules and Jump Routes betweeen sectors have been submitted this morning. They should cure the issues raised.

Also clarified are the two or three eroneous DC references that crept into the text.

 

[lastbesthope]

Cool, let's hope the corrections get put together for download soon.

LBH