Point Defense

[phavoc]

Pg 160 - Point defense

1) If a gunner misses his first shot on a missile, can he continue rolling until either this missile is destroyed or he runs out of shots? Or does a gunner get a single attack roll, per missile, for point defense?

2) If you have ten turrets with triple lasers in each, and your fire control is being handled by the computer, do you still treat each turret separately?

3) When you have multiple turrets, can multiple gunners roll each once (to have their highest chance) to shoot down a missile, then assess the remaining missiles and roll again, or must all gunners declare if they are engaging in point defense and all roll, and if the missiles are destroyed early then the remaining shots hit nothing (this may be of use when you have taken damage and have to decide how much power to allocate to weapon systems).

pg 162 - The text reads "Finally, just as any remaining missiles are about to strike, gunners may engage in point defence, as detailed on page 157" Pg 157 has a damage scale table, which if read, would have a spacecraft weapon attacking a spacecraft target, giving a +0 DM. It seems like a circular reference for point defense since there is no DM. Wouldn't it be better to state that there is no DM to attack except for gunnery skill in the section on pg 160?

 

[Bense]

1) I read it as "the gunner can continue firing until he decides the penalty is too large or takes out all incoming missiles." The penalty is cumulative, and it carries over to the next round, as you take a -1 for each reaction on all your skill rolls in the next round. And note that the weapon and range bonuses don't apply for point defense - those modifiers are for attacking other starships.
2) I read it as Fire Control can only control one turret (weapon, with weapons grouped in turrets counting as one weapon) per rating. Your Fire Control/5 program, the best on the table, can only handle 5 turrets maximum, as if it had Gunner-0 skill for each. If you have more than five turrets you'll either need multiple Fire Control programs and the computer to run them all, or also invest in human gunners.
3) I think you have each gunner declare they are taking a reaction when they want to fire at an incoming missile, before the missile rolls to hit, and they can "watch for effect" before each declares.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

1) The Gunner can only continue to fire as long as he HITS, with a cumulative DM-1. If you miss once, you are done with that weapon. Now, if you have a triple turret, you could use all three weapons separately, so that would give you 3 shots at a missile.

2) You are reading the rules correctly as written, what we don't know until we see the new HG, is the rules on Barrages (multiple turrets of identical weapons slaved together. It is possible that each Fire Control slot could fire a BARRAGE, not just a turret, but we don't know for sure. I suspect so. In the Core Book, it is assumed that each turret is being fired independently.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Just a quickie - have changed things so you can carry on blasting away even if you miss, but that modifier continues to grow...

 

[phavoc]

Just a quickie - have changed things so you can carry on blasting away even if you miss, but that modifier continues to grow...

So an individual gunner, with a triple laser turret, gets the same number of shots as a guy with a single laser in a turret? Just want to make sure there's no + DM if you have more guns.

And Bense brings up a good point - if you have your computer acting as your gunner and you have more than five turrets, should you (a) be limited in how many shots you get, i.e. acting like five gunners only, regardless of whether you have 6 or 20 turrets? and (b) should you have a serious discussion about skimping on paying for real gunners?

 

[Captain Jonah]

Just a quickie - have changed things so you can carry on blasting away even if you miss, but that modifier continues to grow...

So an individual gunner, with a triple laser turret, gets the same number of shots as a guy with a single laser in a turret? Just want to make sure there's no + DM if you have more guns.

And Bense brings up a good point - if you have your computer acting as your gunner and you have more than five turrets, should you (a) be limited in how many shots you get, i.e. acting like five gunners only, regardless of whether you have 6 or 20 turrets? and (b) should you have a serious discussion about skimping on paying for real gunners?

There should be a plus DM to hit, you are firing three shots with a triple which should improve the likelihood of a hit as you are bracketing the target more.

 

[Nerhesi]

Or perhaps the idea of a triple turret is not 3 separate lasers firing away. It is a larger mounting of the same weapon. This is how I took it when I saw the fire-linking weapons. They fire and aim together.. more barrels doing the same thing. They're not all separately articulated on the same turret.

You're just firing with a more powerful beam than 3 separate beams tracing across space on their own... OR else, we end up going back to.. why cant I just fire at 3 separate targets in combat?!

 

[Condottiere]

In a variant system you might allocate action points, and use them up.

Continuously firing at one target can work out two ways, it's harder to hit each time you try, or your predictors find it easier to locate the optimum interception shot.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Next question.

What about point defence fire that is NOT a reaction, the gunner sitting there with his triple laser who only shoots incoming missiles, not a reaction along with something else but his ONLY action in that six minute period?

After all once you start going up in size even player range ships start to have dedicated point defence turrets and attack turrets so a gunner with a triple laser is just sitting there waiting for the enemy missiles, it's his only action of the turn.

 

[NOLATrav]

Boon on each attempt?

 

[NOLATrav]

Sorry double post

 

[phavoc]

Point defense is supposed to be a last-ditch effort to hit a very small, very fast, very agile moving target. I think it would simply be easier to say that for every laser you have onboard, you get that many shots at shooting down a missile. So if we use our Mercenary Cruiser, it often is equipped with 4 triple laser turrets, and 4 triple missile turrets. That would mean it gets 16 attempts to shoot down a laser. If you were to adopt that idea, it would be easier to simply use a dice pool, and a missile is shot down on say a 1-2, or a 5-6. Otherwise you miss. And gunner skills aren't used, since it's more luck and target computer accuracy than anything else. It keeps the whole thing simple and also would you really get to keep shooting your lasers if you kept rolling really well?

For small craft they get to engage missiles at the same rate - once per weapon mounted. For many ships its just one shot, but some will get two, and the larger three. This would also make it easy to integrate your small craft into being additional point defense for your craft. Normally 10 ton fighters are basic targets under the rules, but say you had 6 fighters on board for escort and scouting. That's the equivalent of having a 200 ton escort mounting two triple laser turrets. Now all of a sudden having small craft in a more deadly missile universe makes more sense.

I'd also limit point defense to beam or pulse lasers only. Other energy weapons just aren't designed with anti-missile work in mind. Not sure how'd you want to handle railguns though.

You could also introduce two new things here - an anti-missile missile fired from your own missile turrets that gives you a chance to hit an enemy missile further away, and a new computer program, called point-defense with a nice hefty price tag (and an associated sensor upgrade as well as turret upgrades to be included in the price mix. This reflects just how hard it should be to shoot a missile out space right before it hits you).

It means if you don't invest in missile defense you can be royally screwed. But if you do, you can really take the teeth out of a long-range attacker and either force them to close to beam range, or be able to defend enough against their attack.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I was going to disagree with all this, citing that the spread on lasers is going to be too narrow to make much of a difference. But you have to figure that is probably adjustable (point defence mode?).

So, you chaps have convinced me!

We are going to go with DM+1 on double laser turrets and DM+2 on triple. And you cannot mix pulse and beam to get the bonus.

This balances nicely with normal attacks, as I am going to stand by my guns (sorry) on the one weapon per turn rule for mixed turrets, giving a clear choice between power and utility. Your one turret scout can be pretty nifty with a triple laser turret, but it will miss out on the punch of missiles and the defence against lasers.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I was going to disagree with all this, citing that the spread on lasers is going to be too narrow to make much of a difference. But you have to figure that is probably adjustable (point defence mode?).

So, you chaps have convinced me!

We are going to go with DM+1 on double laser turrets and DM+2 on triple. And you cannot mix pulse and beam to get the bonus.

This balances nicely with normal attacks, as I am going to stand by my guns (sorry) on the one weapon per turn rule for mixed turrets, giving a clear choice between power and utility. Your one turret scout can be pretty nifty with a triple laser turret, but it will miss out on the punch of missiles and the defence against lasers.

Cool

Been meaning to ask this, and since we're talking point defends, here goes: does the limit of one weapon per turn also mean that a turret cannot be used to attack and for point defense in the same turn? I assume so, might be good to state it so there can be no confusion in the rules.

Also, the bonus to by for lasers (+2 and +4 depending on type) does not apply for point defense, right? That's a straight skill check, with only gunner skill and number of guns in the turret for bonus?

 

[phavoc]

Yes, we do need clarification on offensive defensive actions per turn by a weapon. Technically sand is a defense weapon, but you can use it offensively too with pebbles.

Point defense is somewhat different. I'd still like to see the gunner skill tossed out and just the auto program making a last ditch shot one time per laser. It's more of a crap shoot and really those are starship laser weapons, not custom designed gating lasers whose sole function is to shoot down evading missiles. Let's not give them too much additional capabilities. The fact that they even have a missile defense is pretty damn significant.

Now that missiles have much more teeth and are much more of a threat let's leave that on the table and not reduce their total effectiveness by making it possible to shoot or ecm them away every turn.

 

[Condottiere]

If it's reactive, point defence could come into play in the opponent's turn if it's not used during the player's turn.

 

[Samcollins]

Please review the point defense revision on page 160. It is contradictory now, as it allows PD rolls at a cumulative -1, even against previously missed missiles (new), but still says "until he fails a check". So you've still got the old rule buried in with the new, and it can't be both.

Also, please clarify once and for all: my understanding: if you have used a turret to attack an enemy, then that turret cannot be used at all for point defense that round. Is this correct?

Point defense is an important aspect with very different outcomes on small changes so it is important we get this clarified.

Edit: If a weapon that has fired on another ship is also allowed a reaction, this would take out a lot of strategy. Likewise it would give all laser weapons a huge edge over sandcasters (which when combined with lasers, could clearly never fire when the laser in the turret fired). Therefore, I believe the one weapon per round rule would most certainly have to carry over into reaction.

 

[phavoc]

Yup, you are right. When you fail a check you should be done, but the rule not contradicts itself.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Corrected this. Also made it clear that weapons used for point defence cannot make attacks in the same round. Another bonus for having a mixed turret...

 

[Samcollins]

Perfect. This edition is becoming darned near perfect.