PoD - Oleb

[MasterGwydion]

Just a question from someone who is unlikely to ever play/run the Pirates of Drinax. Is this an area that the 3rd Imperium would be doing routine surveys of or is it outside their territory?

It is outside of Imperial Space

 

[J. L. Brown]

Also, what Drinax is selling is not only Drinaxi art, but the art the Sindalians collected from all over Early Charted Space. The collection is described as being,

"Now, between all the possible fields of creation and study, from sculpture and painting to weapon-smithing to astronomy to molecular biology, let us assume there are a dozen such masterworks in every generation across a single planet. These masterworks are things of such staggering genius that they will be remembered for centuries. A dozen from each generation of artists and creators... from every one of thirty worlds that owed fealty to Drinax... for more than fifty generations. If you take, say, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel or Taj Mahal as your baseline, then the Floating Palace of Drinax is crammed with around 20,000 such works of staggering genius, along with ten times as many lesser works and treasures from across the stars. Add onto that all that they looted from the Sindalian empire and from other worlds, including the Ziru Sirka."

So, no. These items are not prized only by Drinaxi. They are prized by anyone interested in historical art. Unless you think the Sistine Chapel is only appreciated by Italians?

Along with 'The UWP Is Crap', there are lots of other things that make no sense as they stand -- the UWP is just the big one.

The collection that you describe above is all the stuff that the Floating Palace acquired while it was top dog; it has NOT been collecting priceless art after the bombardment. And that collection reached its' peak 220 years ago; all I have done is assume that much of it (most of it) has since been sold. Aside from the annual maintenance and running costs of the Floating Palace, you have the cost-of-living of 70000 SOC 12+ Drinaxi Nobles to meet; and they have no fiefs, no estates, no investments... they rely on Largess from the Royal line to keep them going. For whatever reason, Oleb is (secretly, at least for another year or two) short on cash.

And, yes -- I have only solved this In My Traveller Universe. I make no effort to defend the quality of the un-fixed OTU.

 

[Condottiere]

Could be set up as a place to launder money.

Which includes over valuated art works.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

It is outside of Imperial Space

So if it is outside and may not have been surveyed for centuries by the Imperium why would you expect it to match the Imperial UWP? It should be no surprise if it had changed.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Along with 'The UWP Is Crap', there are lots of other things that make no sense as they stand -- the UWP is just the big one.

The collection that you describe above is all the stuff that the Floating Palace acquired while it was top dog; it has NOT been collecting priceless art after the bombardment. And that collection reached its' peak 220 years ago; all I have done is assume that much of it (most of it) has since been sold.

Except, as it is described, the Floating Palace is still chocked full of that stuff.

Aside from the annual maintenance and running costs of the Floating Palace, you have the cost-of-living of 70000 SOC 12+ Drinaxi Nobles to meet; and they have no fiefs, no estates, no investments... they rely on Largess from the Royal line to keep them going. For whatever reason, Oleb is (secretly, at least for another year or two) short on cash.

I agree that this has been going on, although almost none of those in the Floating Palace are nobles anymore. They are nobleborn or noble-blooded, but they do not meet the requirements to enter the noble career, so they cannot be of the Noble Career. Remember what needs to be done to maintain your SOC score? Plus, how are these nobles learning Engineering? Which means that they must be on other career paths. You would have a few nobles (as in the Career Path), such as the Royal Family, Lady Hil, and probably a very few others. Otherwise, you won't have the skills needed to keep the Floating Palace in the air for two centuries. Even those that have Titles likely won't have the SOC to back them up with the exceptions of those few families who remained as nobles.

And, yes -- I have only solved this In My Traveller Universe. I make no effort to defend the quality of the un-fixed OTU.

Hey. We can only fix our own universes. The OTU is beyond us.

 

[MasterGwydion]

So if it is outside and may not have been surveyed for centuries by the Imperium why would you expect it to match the Imperial UWP? It should be no surprise if it had changed.

Then why even use UWP codes for all of those planets that the IISS has never been to? Where do those codes come from?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Centuries is not never.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Centuries is not never.

No, it's not. My point is that if the UWP codes of systems that the IISS has never been to exist, then why should we assume that all Travellermap UWPs are from the IISS? I would assume that traders trading up and down the Drinax Chain would have accurate charts, but a trader buying a map of the Drinax Chain while they are in Gateway Sector? Likely not. As Referees, we need the accurate information, so we can design what is actually down there for our players. If We want to provide Our players with inaccurate information, that is a Referee's choice and good for several different types of adventure, but that is for the Referee to do, not the publisher.

So, obviously within the Imperium the UWPs are determined by the IISS, but where did the UWPs for the Chtetaravl Sector come from? The Imperium has never been there.

 

[tytalan]

A lot of people have pointed out several of the problems. The art they do sell this though it’s at pennies on the dollar like someone else said because they have absolutely no leverage. and what they do get they have to spend to get parts to maintain the palace, we have a good example of this because when the palace’s hydroponics system crashed they had to invade Asim to get food.

But the biggest problem is the most basic part of infrastructure personal!! While the people in the palace are educated most are totally incapable of actually building and creating anything. While the Vespers are more prepared to work they don’t have the education or time to build the needed infrastructure (there are doing all they can to survive). The palace can barely feed it self and vespers die of starvation and other environmental problems. To build back up Drinax needs a influx of both skilled and educated people, resources like food, and the money to capitalize rebuilding of a working infrastructure, to make matter even worse Drinax because of the damage done to the planet needs to build a inclosed system like a asteroid system. It can be done but to do it Drinax need the leverage to not be a potential victim any more.

 

[tytalan]

So, obviously within the Imperium the UWPs are determined by the IISS, but where did the UWPs for the Chtetaravl Sector come from? The Imperium has never been there.

Local powers or Merchants. Probably even major or minor power has its own version of the UWP they probably vary a bit but the core data is going to be universal and there would be software to convert from say Aslan UWP system/s to Imperial. The various merchant organizations probably have their own hybrid version so they can pass data among themselves at a price. How accurate the data is going vary depending on many things the source, the age, even recent events. In some cases the data might even have been purposely distorted by this merchant or that to protect a valuable resource.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Except, as it is described, the Floating Palace is still chocked full of that stuff.

You are free to say that it is; but I regard that as a problem and fixed it IMTU. To me, all that is left is a veneer; the minimal amount that cannot be removed without obvious (and unthinkable!) blemishes, or vital components. The Nobles (or Oleb) have hocked everything else -- but 'chock full of priceless treasure' is certainly the image that everyone in the Floating Palace want to create.

I agree that this has been going on, although almost none of those in the Floating Palace are nobles anymore.

The PoD 'Trojan Reach' book would disagree with you; on page 4:

DRINAX (FLOATING PALACE)
You are a noble of the Kingdom of Drinax, just like everyone else who lives on the Floating Palace. You grew up
amid the decaying wonders of the citadel, learning the history and the glorious deeds of your ancestors.

There are Nobles who are Scholars, Nobles who are in the Navy, Nobles who provide entertainment, & etc -- but there are also Nobles who are royal hangers-on, courtiers, and connivers. Keeping the Floating Palace in the sky is very likely an area of influence for the Scholar's Tower.

The 'Life Events' table also seems to support my 'sell heirlooms' narrative.

But I cannot tell you how your PoD 'has to be'; only how I have (so far) resolved things.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You are free to say that it is; but I regard that as a problem and fixed it IMTU. To me, all that is left is a veneer; the minimal amount that cannot be removed without obvious (and unthinkable!) blemishes, or vital components. The Nobles (or Oleb) have hocked everything else -- but 'chock full of priceless treasure' is certainly the image that everyone in the Floating Palace want to create.

Oh, it definitely fixes it for YTU. It is a good solution for story, but not for following the rules of an RPG.

The PoD 'Trojan Reach' book would disagree with you; on page 4:

As many in here have states to me before, character creation reflects only PCs, not the NPCs of the universe, eventhough this is contradicted in the very example that you gave. PoD book 2, page 4. You think that there is the same likelyhood of the Drinaxi being psionic as there is that their noble families owned land in the past? That seems kind sketchy. If they are all part of noble families, all of them at one point or another would have owned land in the Kingdom of Drinax. This seems to be a case of the writer not double checking to make sure that what is on the character creation charts matches his description of the culture that they come from.

There are Nobles who are Scholars, Nobles who are in the Navy, Nobles who provide entertainment, & etc -- but there are also Nobles who are royal hangers-on, courtiers, and connivers. Keeping the Floating Palace in the sky is very likely an area of influence for the Scholar's Tower.

Prince Harrick and Princess Rao are both listed as having SOC 14. They have the same SOC as the Heir of the Iridium Throne? Not likely. It is another case of writers not following the rules.

The 'Life Events' table also seems to support my 'sell heirlooms' narrative.

Grandma's broach is a bit different than selling the Mona Lisa. Just saying.

But I cannot tell you how your PoD 'has to be'; only how I have (so far) resolved things.

I actually like your solutions. I just wished the UWP matched your solutions.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Prince Harrick and Princess Rao are both listed as having SOC 14. They have the same SOC as the Heir of the Iridium Throne? Not likely. It is another case of writers not following the rules.

Ciencia is SOC16. SOC14 is a Count or Countess.

 

[NOLATrav]

I was going to post some thoughts I felt would be useful but then I realized ‘Nah, they’re all in their trenches.’

It’s a game. Have fun.

Also see Rule 0.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I was going to post some thoughts I felt would be useful but then I realized ‘Nah, they’re all in their trenches.’

It’s a game. Have fun.

Also see Rule 0.

I think Master Gwydion and I have the same problem: If it is all-rule-zero-all-the-time, then why waste money on dice? Or rulebooks?

A publisher ought to make stuff that does not require every Referee to fix glaring flaws just to get the basics to function. Players WILL find edge cases, holes, and exploits -- the job of the Publisher is to reduce the Referee's headaches by (as much as possible) not creating holes in the first place. Here's an example I stumbled across recently:

TL 12, limit of 10kCr on equipment.
TL-12, a portable Computer/3 is 1000Cr; but a TL-12 portable Computer/2 is only 125Cr. (CSC Update p 67) Buy six of them, plus 200Cr each for 'Virtual Mining For Bandwidth 2' software (High Guard 2016, p 65). Player is now down by 1950Cr, but each computer produces 24Cr per day for an income of 4032Cr per 28-day month; which is a very comfortable SOC 10 lifestyle with more than 1500Cr per month to waste on frivolities.

How is it that Travellers in a trade campaign are supposed to be starving & struggling to make ends meet? The answer: nobody checks any of this stuff. Referees are compelled to sanity-check *everything*. And that is a flaw.

Pirates of Drinax is an epic campaign; there is a lot of material to check for idiocy, and we can be profoundly certain the author did not.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think Master Gwydion and I have the same problem: If it is all-rule-zero-all-the-time, then why waste money on dice? Or rulebooks?

A publisher ought to make stuff that does not require every Referee to fix glaring flaws just to get the basics to function. Players WILL find edge cases, holes, and exploits -- the job of the Publisher is the reduce the Referee's headaches by (as much as possible) not creating holes in the first place. Here's an example I stumbled across recently:

TL 12, limit of 10kCr on equipment.
TL-12, a portable Computer/3 is 1000Cr; but a TL-12 portable Computer/2 is only 125Cr. (CSC Update p 67) Buy six of them, plus 200Cr each for 'Virtual Mining For Bandwidth 2' software (High Guard 2016, p 65). Player is now down 1950Cr, but each computer produces 24Cr per day for an income of 4032Cr per 28-day month; which is a very comfortable SOC 10 lifestyle with more than 1500Cr per month to waste on frivolities.

How is it that Travellers in a trade campaign are supposed to be starving & struggling to make ends meet? The answer: nobody checks any of this stuff. Referees are compelled to sanity-check *everything*. And that is a flaw.

Pirates of Drinax is an epic campaign; there is a lot of material to check for idiocy, and we can be profoundly certain the author did not.

We are in complete agreement on this.

 

[Garran]

It is outside of Imperial Space

It is nevertheless adjacent to a major trade route, has an Imperial ambassador, and the Imperial fleet under Krond will make a point of visiting it to see the sights during that episode, so it isn't exactly unvisited, even by officialdom - certainly not unvisited enough that massive shifts in its status wouldn't be noticed for a hundred years.


As for the UWP, I don't see it as being a problem as written. Nor does it require a bunch of handwaves about how the scholars somehow forgot how everything works (and presumably managed to lose every schematic, textbook, and DrinTube video explaining it along the way), and the starport designation may well be technically correct.

But without anything in the way of reliable resource inputs, financing, and population, there's no way to build (and scale) a functioning industrial base to and make use of all of that tech in anything resembling an organized capacity. So yes, the Oleb/Rao plan does make sense because even if it doesn't fully pan out and rebuild an entire kingdom; just getting a few planets in Drinax's (metaphorical) orbit that can reliably provide those crucial inputs would make Drinax a regional player again.

For that matter, the Floating Palace might well be able to provide Class A starport service as it is if someone decided to come along and donate all the necessary material and crew to actually run it properly. That's just not very likely to happen.

 

[Endie]

Again: living off capital is insane economic planning, and selling assets is only a sustainable economic system if you are generating new assets as fast as you sell them.

And there’s a fundamental gap on the other element. Some people are relaxed about the fact that scouts are not gods, and in the context of the game they’re often unreliable narrators who make mistakes or even have the wool pulled over their eyes. This is the original philosophy of Traveller: it becomes our universe as soon as we start playing in it and even the 3i itself is just there as a starting point for us to play in. You find a UWP unhelpful? Change it: you’re supposed to.

Other people drive themselves mad in the belief that what the UWP says is and must remain the absolute and unchangeable, biblical truth (if you think I’m exaggerating then bear in mind that, in the last week, one of the posters in this thread went raging in all-caps at someone who suggested differently!) despite being the work of a retired scout jumping into a system a few decades ago (since when there might have been a devastating war, two revolutions and a global pandemic) and submitting a report on the basis of a few hours of observations and a misleading Potemkin tour by a local bureaucrat with an agenda.

Essentially it’s the difference between those of us who play like everything in the sourcebooks (not core rulebooks) is a description, in-universe, by in-universe sources and those who think it’s an external statement of Truth by MM or MWM or MJD or (far worse) Joe Fugate’s badly written and bugged non-random, random Number generator. If you’re doing that then you rely on every author having perfect knowledge of all canon, and good luck with that.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The UPP, or UWP as the kids of today call it, is a meta-game artifact that became described and used as an insetting tool also. The same can be said of the PC UPP, for the meta game it records your characteristics so that your character can interact with the setting you make up via the rules of the game.

As Mongoose Traveller 2e has drifted towards being The Third Imperium role playing game and away from the generic this distinction has been lost, conflated, confused, obfuscated and then we get to contradictory data... all without mentioning the fluff text.

In univeres the Third Imperium roleplaying game tells everything from the Imperial perceptive, we know that the IISS conducts 20 year missions to visit far off places 0 the last such jump 6 ten years out and ten years back could range for 1560 parsecs beyond Imperial borders. It just so happens the IISS UWP exactly matches the meta-game way of doing it.

Different cultures may well have different ways of tabulating system characteristics, but the meta-rule is for the UWP and the cultural varaince is left to the referee.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The UPP, or UWP as the kids of today call it, is a meta-game artifact that became described and used as an insetting tool also. The same can be said of the PC UPP, for the meta game it records your characteristics so that your character can interact with the setting you make up via the rules of the game.

As Mongoose Traveller 2e has drifted towards being The Third Imperium role playing game and away from the generic this distinction has been lost, conflated, confused, obfuscated and then we get to contradictory data... all without mentioning the fluff text.

In univeres the Third Imperium roleplaying game tells everything from the Imperial perceptive, we know that the IISS conducts 20 year missions to visit far off places 0 the last such jump 6 ten years out and ten years back could range for 1560 parsecs beyond Imperial borders. It just so happens the IISS UWP exactly matches the meta-game way of doing it.

Different cultures may well have different ways of tabulating system characteristics, but the meta-rule is for the UWP and the cultural varaince is left to the referee.

How can it be left up to the Referee when if the UWPs are not accurate out-of-game, how are you supposed to use the WBH and plug in the UWP information to find out the rest of the information that the WBH can generate?