dag'karlove
Mongoose
lastbesthope said:
Then why place this post at all instead of just doing it?
Playtesting - Powers and Principalities
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Then why place this post at all instead of just doing it?
lastbesthope
Mongoose
dag'karlove said:
Because Matt said in the first post:
msprange said:
I haven't played with the rules, simply read through them and spotted some mistakes and areas for clarification. Hence my not posting my full analysis here.
LBH
dag'karlove
Mongoose
lastbesthope said:
I think youre missing the Point. Instead of not armchair generalling or making an unnessacarry posttelling everyone you are emailing him. Why did you just not say anything and email him and let him know? There was no reason to let us know you found it all. Its just adding more posts.
Actually, dag'kar, this is an exception. If we're all looking here for playtest stuff and someone has taken the initiative on the grammar, spelling and punctuation front, it beats sending Matt 47,982 e-mails on spelling that all point out the same thing. This is a streamlining move on LBH's part.
Instead, we can all bug LBH with 47,982 e-mails about grammar, spelling and punctuation.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Instead, we can all bug LBH with 47,982 e-mails about grammar, spelling and punctuation.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
mollari_uk
Mongoose
Ok, I've got some feedback from an actual game:
Centauri Vs Shadows 2pt War Annihilation
Shadows
1 Young Shadow Ship
1 Stalker
2 Scouts
Centauri
3 Demos
2 Maximus
2 Elutaurians
1 Liati
Centauri put the Demos’ and Maximus’ in a hunting pack to try out the rules.
Here are my comments on the new rules:
Hunting Packs – These aren’t so good against manoeuvrable fleets as it’s easy to make your target the only legal one. It did mean I had to be careful where I went but not much more so than with normal squadrons. I presumed that once the pack went below 4 ships it lost its benefits. This again made quite a difference as it only took 2 shots from the shadow ship to do this.
Demos – Seems like a good change. They seem more like skirmish ships now. They were no match for the Shadow ship and unfortunately failed stealth too many times to do anything to the scouts they were hunting.
Stalker – This did really well, the new weapon packs a punch but I did have to hide it almost all the battle until it could sneak round. It was lucky to survive unscathed against an attack by the Liati, but it still lost all its shields, and the Liati’s beam shot pretty much failed so it was lucky. I don’t think +1AD is good enough. I would have rather had 2 scouts as usual.
FAP – I think this made a big difference. The Centauri would have had 3 more skirmish ships in the old FAP breakdown and I think this would have meant more chances to break stealth and more initiative sinks. It definitely was a penalty to breakdown to skirmish in a War priority game.
Shadows AF option – This was only used once and the Liati took advantage and stormed in while I was using the option. I used it on the Liati anyway and did 1 dmg. Luckily the Liati didn’t do anything. I love this rule and think it works in the context of P&P (giving cool options that don’t break the game).
Shields in Dogfights – This appears too good. I fought 2 Rutarians (?) and luckily killed one. That then meant as long as I won initiative I would never lose. I think increasing the dogfight to +1 would be better. Didn’t get chance to test the shields against AF.
Result: The Shadows would have won. We didn't play to the end but the Shadows had lost little damage by the end of turn four and the Centauri had lost 3 Demos and 2 Elutarians I think. The Shadows as usual benefitted from scenery, and I think the hunting pack's reduction on init sinks didn't help. The result didn't really matter though, I think it showed some good examples of the new rules.
Centauri Vs Shadows 2pt War Annihilation
Shadows
1 Young Shadow Ship
1 Stalker
2 Scouts
Centauri
3 Demos
2 Maximus
2 Elutaurians
1 Liati
Centauri put the Demos’ and Maximus’ in a hunting pack to try out the rules.
Here are my comments on the new rules:
Hunting Packs – These aren’t so good against manoeuvrable fleets as it’s easy to make your target the only legal one. It did mean I had to be careful where I went but not much more so than with normal squadrons. I presumed that once the pack went below 4 ships it lost its benefits. This again made quite a difference as it only took 2 shots from the shadow ship to do this.
Demos – Seems like a good change. They seem more like skirmish ships now. They were no match for the Shadow ship and unfortunately failed stealth too many times to do anything to the scouts they were hunting.
Stalker – This did really well, the new weapon packs a punch but I did have to hide it almost all the battle until it could sneak round. It was lucky to survive unscathed against an attack by the Liati, but it still lost all its shields, and the Liati’s beam shot pretty much failed so it was lucky. I don’t think +1AD is good enough. I would have rather had 2 scouts as usual.
FAP – I think this made a big difference. The Centauri would have had 3 more skirmish ships in the old FAP breakdown and I think this would have meant more chances to break stealth and more initiative sinks. It definitely was a penalty to breakdown to skirmish in a War priority game.
Shadows AF option – This was only used once and the Liati took advantage and stormed in while I was using the option. I used it on the Liati anyway and did 1 dmg. Luckily the Liati didn’t do anything. I love this rule and think it works in the context of P&P (giving cool options that don’t break the game).
Shields in Dogfights – This appears too good. I fought 2 Rutarians (?) and luckily killed one. That then meant as long as I won initiative I would never lose. I think increasing the dogfight to +1 would be better. Didn’t get chance to test the shields against AF.
Result: The Shadows would have won. We didn't play to the end but the Shadows had lost little damage by the end of turn four and the Centauri had lost 3 Demos and 2 Elutarians I think. The Shadows as usual benefitted from scenery, and I think the hunting pack's reduction on init sinks didn't help. The result didn't really matter though, I think it showed some good examples of the new rules.
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
Copied from bonehead manouvre thread.
Well i tested it out and we played it as though we were playing 2nd ed.
The EA kept the 2 rail hyps in hyperspace.
The Centauri kept the 3 Vorchans in space.
First couple of turns: The ea fighter swarm dispatched the centauri one quickly so this wasn't an issue for the EA.
The demos stayed allong side the balvarian on CBD and used their missile to blow up a corvette and damage another the EAs shoting was abismal this made up for the good dogfighting.
The next few turns saw possibly the most action. The vorchans decided to jump in one on either edge and one in the middle of the field. However unluckily this scattered and ended up easily within range of bonehead for the demos pack and very unfortunately managed to just clip the corvan. So one hermes shot forward tryed and failed. So another tryed succeeded and blew up all ships quite spectacularly. The vorchans jumped in on the far right where they were followed by the rail hyperions who had opened jump points on either edge too. The rail hyps blew up one of the vorchans, the vorchans finished of the other corvette. Meanwhile the auroras where slowly critting the balvarian to death.
The final turns saw the balvarian die, from a very lucky missile shot of a hermes this left 2 vorchans to contend with 2 rail hyps 1 criplled, 2 hermes undamaged, an explorer Undamaged and an avenger undamaged. so we called it.
Me and matty drew this conclusion:
The centauri should have had a good chance having very manouverable ships. They were swinging round the battlefield with the demos when the vorchan JP scattered, up to that point they were undamaged.
The bonehead manouvre is wrong and broken. I managed to kill 4 Demos and a Corvan for an exchange of 2 hermes. It is far too powerfull. Tone it down maybe but i think it would be easier to remove it. Matt suggested that a rule allong the line of you shot me i ram you back. Such as you see from the evidance in the mimbari earth war, allot of ramming went on, but then i feel thats exchanging stinking bishop for cheddar.
I feel to strike it would be simpler come up with something not so broken. And there is no reason why EA fighters need a boost they are fine.
No. 1 Bear said:
Well i tested it out and we played it as though we were playing 2nd ed.
The EA kept the 2 rail hyps in hyperspace.
The Centauri kept the 3 Vorchans in space.
First couple of turns: The ea fighter swarm dispatched the centauri one quickly so this wasn't an issue for the EA.
The demos stayed allong side the balvarian on CBD and used their missile to blow up a corvette and damage another the EAs shoting was abismal this made up for the good dogfighting.
The next few turns saw possibly the most action. The vorchans decided to jump in one on either edge and one in the middle of the field. However unluckily this scattered and ended up easily within range of bonehead for the demos pack and very unfortunately managed to just clip the corvan. So one hermes shot forward tryed and failed. So another tryed succeeded and blew up all ships quite spectacularly. The vorchans jumped in on the far right where they were followed by the rail hyperions who had opened jump points on either edge too. The rail hyps blew up one of the vorchans, the vorchans finished of the other corvette. Meanwhile the auroras where slowly critting the balvarian to death.
The final turns saw the balvarian die, from a very lucky missile shot of a hermes this left 2 vorchans to contend with 2 rail hyps 1 criplled, 2 hermes undamaged, an explorer Undamaged and an avenger undamaged. so we called it.
Me and matty drew this conclusion:
The centauri should have had a good chance having very manouverable ships. They were swinging round the battlefield with the demos when the vorchan JP scattered, up to that point they were undamaged.
The bonehead manouvre is wrong and broken. I managed to kill 4 Demos and a Corvan for an exchange of 2 hermes. It is far too powerfull. Tone it down maybe but i think it would be easier to remove it. Matt suggested that a rule allong the line of you shot me i ram you back. Such as you see from the evidance in the mimbari earth war, allot of ramming went on, but then i feel thats exchanging stinking bishop for cheddar.
I feel to strike it would be simpler come up with something not so broken. And there is no reason why EA fighters need a boost they are fine.
Here are our results and thoughts from the two battles that our group played last night:
Centauri vs. Drazi - 5 point Battle - Annihilation Scenario
Drazi
1 Fireraptor
2 Firehawks
2 Warbirds
2 Strikehawks
1 Sunhawk
1 Sleekbird
2 Darkhawks
Centauri
hunting pack one:
1 Demos
2 Vorchans
1 Covran
2 Havens
hunting pack two:
1 Demos
1 Balvarin
2 Vorchans
2 Havens
2 Maximus
1 Elutarian
1 Liati
Our comments on the new rules:
Hunting Packs – These had little effect in this game against the mostly boresight Drazi. It was very easy for him to make sure that his target was the only legal one. It did lead to a question when the Drazi use their new special action Start Attack Run as to at what point you check if there are other legal targets and whether a ram resulting from a failed try could be redirected. The only time the Centauri was able to use this rule for an advantage was during the opening salvo from the Darkhawks where their missiles were redirected from a Vorchan to a Silent Running Covran which happened to be over 20" away from them. The stealth, not surprisingly, nullified both shots.
Demos – The reduction to 6 AD on the Ion Cannons seems to have reduced the effectiveness of Demos a bit below that of the Vorchan. We had been using 8 AD previously rather than 10 (which felt about right) but now they appeared rather lack luster next to the Vorchans. The preponderance of Beam weapons on the Drazi and the minimal effect of hunting packs against them may have contributed to this but reducing its effectiveness so that it is only fully effective when in a hunting pack seems like the wrong direction to take.
Start Attack Run Drazi SA – This was used a number of times and added some nice tactical flexibility to the Drazi. The lack of non-forward weapons on the Centauri made any counter attack rather difficult as well. Only once did a Drazi warbird "accidentally" ram a ship due to this rule and as it destroyed both the Warbird and the Demos it did not have much effect. The actual rule is a bit unclear about re-rolling successful hits so our interpretation was to roll the attack as normal (i.e. including multiple hits from beams and re-rolls for twin linked) and then make one additional re-roll for each hit based on the original target number to see if it now became a miss. Against low hull targets this was extremely useful but against a hull 6 Maximus the few hits scored on the TL weapons often now resulted in a miss (the beams were still effective however as about half the hits still scored). This rule will definitely be a major hindrance against Bore and Forward firing races but little practical use against well rounded races such as the Vree. The biggest problem we had with it was that it slowed down the game; as there were now many additional rolls to be made.
Fireraptor – The additional Damage did help this ship a bit and the new Special Actions did benefit it, so it at least felt like it had the durability of a War level ship but it still was a bit underpowered or at least unable to get its firepower to bear for full effect almost the entire battle.
Track that Target SA – This was quite useful to the Drazi but of course no use for the Centauri. We could clearly see this as a Drazi only SA replacing the Start Attack Run, as it seems custom made for them. We did not find any balance problems with it at all as halving the AD seemed like a decent penalty especially since the CQ check was a 9 (reducing this to an 8 might still be acceptable or giving the Drazi a +1 bonus on the action perhaps).
New Ramming Rules – These are definitely more brutal than before as the Liati found out when the crippled Sleekbird barreled into it easily now that it required no initial CQ check. We can see this being abused by the Drazi in the future against Dodge/Stealth heavy races using their cheap ships as ramming engines. While small, the fast Haven might work quite effectively in that role as well against fragile Dodge based ships like the Blue Star and Drazi Sunhawk hulls.
Small Ships – This looked to be a solid new rule as it reduced the ability to use Havens as movement sinks but still allowed the Centauri to bulk up the numbers within the squadrons.
FAP – This is clearly an improvement. The Centauri would have probably taken several more skirmish ships and less raid ships in the old FAP breakdown and that would have meant more initiative sinks.
Result: The Centauri won. The Liati proved as usual to be devastating to Dodge based ships and the Vorchans were quite effective. The Fireraptor did not hold up its end or the battle might well have gone the other way as it was fairly close.
Centauri vs. Drazi - 5 point Battle - Annihilation Scenario
Drazi
1 Fireraptor
2 Firehawks
2 Warbirds
2 Strikehawks
1 Sunhawk
1 Sleekbird
2 Darkhawks
Centauri
hunting pack one:
1 Demos
2 Vorchans
1 Covran
2 Havens
hunting pack two:
1 Demos
1 Balvarin
2 Vorchans
2 Havens
2 Maximus
1 Elutarian
1 Liati
Our comments on the new rules:
Hunting Packs – These had little effect in this game against the mostly boresight Drazi. It was very easy for him to make sure that his target was the only legal one. It did lead to a question when the Drazi use their new special action Start Attack Run as to at what point you check if there are other legal targets and whether a ram resulting from a failed try could be redirected. The only time the Centauri was able to use this rule for an advantage was during the opening salvo from the Darkhawks where their missiles were redirected from a Vorchan to a Silent Running Covran which happened to be over 20" away from them. The stealth, not surprisingly, nullified both shots.
Demos – The reduction to 6 AD on the Ion Cannons seems to have reduced the effectiveness of Demos a bit below that of the Vorchan. We had been using 8 AD previously rather than 10 (which felt about right) but now they appeared rather lack luster next to the Vorchans. The preponderance of Beam weapons on the Drazi and the minimal effect of hunting packs against them may have contributed to this but reducing its effectiveness so that it is only fully effective when in a hunting pack seems like the wrong direction to take.
Start Attack Run Drazi SA – This was used a number of times and added some nice tactical flexibility to the Drazi. The lack of non-forward weapons on the Centauri made any counter attack rather difficult as well. Only once did a Drazi warbird "accidentally" ram a ship due to this rule and as it destroyed both the Warbird and the Demos it did not have much effect. The actual rule is a bit unclear about re-rolling successful hits so our interpretation was to roll the attack as normal (i.e. including multiple hits from beams and re-rolls for twin linked) and then make one additional re-roll for each hit based on the original target number to see if it now became a miss. Against low hull targets this was extremely useful but against a hull 6 Maximus the few hits scored on the TL weapons often now resulted in a miss (the beams were still effective however as about half the hits still scored). This rule will definitely be a major hindrance against Bore and Forward firing races but little practical use against well rounded races such as the Vree. The biggest problem we had with it was that it slowed down the game; as there were now many additional rolls to be made.
Fireraptor – The additional Damage did help this ship a bit and the new Special Actions did benefit it, so it at least felt like it had the durability of a War level ship but it still was a bit underpowered or at least unable to get its firepower to bear for full effect almost the entire battle.
Track that Target SA – This was quite useful to the Drazi but of course no use for the Centauri. We could clearly see this as a Drazi only SA replacing the Start Attack Run, as it seems custom made for them. We did not find any balance problems with it at all as halving the AD seemed like a decent penalty especially since the CQ check was a 9 (reducing this to an 8 might still be acceptable or giving the Drazi a +1 bonus on the action perhaps).
New Ramming Rules – These are definitely more brutal than before as the Liati found out when the crippled Sleekbird barreled into it easily now that it required no initial CQ check. We can see this being abused by the Drazi in the future against Dodge/Stealth heavy races using their cheap ships as ramming engines. While small, the fast Haven might work quite effectively in that role as well against fragile Dodge based ships like the Blue Star and Drazi Sunhawk hulls.
Small Ships – This looked to be a solid new rule as it reduced the ability to use Havens as movement sinks but still allowed the Centauri to bulk up the numbers within the squadrons.
FAP – This is clearly an improvement. The Centauri would have probably taken several more skirmish ships and less raid ships in the old FAP breakdown and that would have meant more initiative sinks.
Result: The Centauri won. The Liati proved as usual to be devastating to Dodge based ships and the Vorchans were quite effective. The Fireraptor did not hold up its end or the battle might well have gone the other way as it was fairly close.
Centauri vs. Brakiri - 5 point Battle - Annihilation Scenario
Brakiri
1 Tashkat
2 Haltona
2 Shakara
2 Ikorta
1 Brokados
2 Brikorta
Centauri
hunting pack one:
1 Demos
2 Vorchans
1 Covran
2 Havens
hunting pack two:
1 Demos
1 Balvarin
2 Vorchans
2 Havens
2 Maximus
1 Elutarian
1 Liati
Our comments on the new rules:
Hunting Packs – These had a significant effect in this game. Two things did come up. Since comm disruptors make an attack roll it appears within the current rules that the attack can simply be redirected to ship that is not performing a special action, thereby making a well built hunting pack all but immune to these and allowing the CBD Balvarin to soak up damage for its pack with no fear of the usual Brakiri comm disruptor removal of any CBD or Scramble SAs in range. Using scouts against the Centauri is also far less effective than before since using them against a hunting pack successfully will often just allow the Centauri to shift the attack to a non-scouted ship. Another thing was also brought up although not applicable in this game. If using an Admiral with the ability to redirect an attack, it would be possible to redirect an attack from a ship outside the pack to one inside it and then redirect it to a still different ship or vice versa. Much like re-rolls there should be a clarification that an attack can only be redirected once.
Demos – The Demos still seemed to under perform compared to its cousin the Vorchan. The reduction to 6 AD looks to be a bit too severe.
Gravitic Shifters – This rule apparently exists more for fluff than substance since as it now stands the Brakiri have too few of these to make much use of it. We never encountered a situation where using both on a single ship for the critical was more effective than trying to shift two different Forward Arc Centauri ships. If the Brakiri are given a lower priority ship/variant (Raid or Battle) with a Shifter than this rule might see a bit more actual use.
Small Ships – This looked to be a solid new rule as it reduced the ability to use Havens as movement sinks but still allowed the Centauri to bulk up the numbers within the squadrons.
FAP – This is clearly an improvement. The Centauri would have probably taken several more skirmish ships and less raid ships in the old FAP breakdown and that would have meant more initiative sinks. As a race with no Patrol and limited Skirmish ships the Brakiri definitely benefited from the new system.
Result: The Centauri won this one by a decent margin. The Vorchans were quite effective and several redirected shots of the deadly Brakiri Haltona beams onto the stealthy scout wasted much needed SL firepower. A redirected shot from the Tashkat onto a Haven also proved to be a massive exercise in overkill. The combined interceptors from Maximus frigates and redirected shots onto the Balvarin/Demos reduced the effectiveness of the Brakiri Pulsars as well.
Brakiri
1 Tashkat
2 Haltona
2 Shakara
2 Ikorta
1 Brokados
2 Brikorta
Centauri
hunting pack one:
1 Demos
2 Vorchans
1 Covran
2 Havens
hunting pack two:
1 Demos
1 Balvarin
2 Vorchans
2 Havens
2 Maximus
1 Elutarian
1 Liati
Our comments on the new rules:
Hunting Packs – These had a significant effect in this game. Two things did come up. Since comm disruptors make an attack roll it appears within the current rules that the attack can simply be redirected to ship that is not performing a special action, thereby making a well built hunting pack all but immune to these and allowing the CBD Balvarin to soak up damage for its pack with no fear of the usual Brakiri comm disruptor removal of any CBD or Scramble SAs in range. Using scouts against the Centauri is also far less effective than before since using them against a hunting pack successfully will often just allow the Centauri to shift the attack to a non-scouted ship. Another thing was also brought up although not applicable in this game. If using an Admiral with the ability to redirect an attack, it would be possible to redirect an attack from a ship outside the pack to one inside it and then redirect it to a still different ship or vice versa. Much like re-rolls there should be a clarification that an attack can only be redirected once.
Demos – The Demos still seemed to under perform compared to its cousin the Vorchan. The reduction to 6 AD looks to be a bit too severe.
Gravitic Shifters – This rule apparently exists more for fluff than substance since as it now stands the Brakiri have too few of these to make much use of it. We never encountered a situation where using both on a single ship for the critical was more effective than trying to shift two different Forward Arc Centauri ships. If the Brakiri are given a lower priority ship/variant (Raid or Battle) with a Shifter than this rule might see a bit more actual use.
Small Ships – This looked to be a solid new rule as it reduced the ability to use Havens as movement sinks but still allowed the Centauri to bulk up the numbers within the squadrons.
FAP – This is clearly an improvement. The Centauri would have probably taken several more skirmish ships and less raid ships in the old FAP breakdown and that would have meant more initiative sinks. As a race with no Patrol and limited Skirmish ships the Brakiri definitely benefited from the new system.
Result: The Centauri won this one by a decent margin. The Vorchans were quite effective and several redirected shots of the deadly Brakiri Haltona beams onto the stealthy scout wasted much needed SL firepower. A redirected shot from the Tashkat onto a Haven also proved to be a massive exercise in overkill. The combined interceptors from Maximus frigates and redirected shots onto the Balvarin/Demos reduced the effectiveness of the Brakiri Pulsars as well.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Excellent reports, thank you.
A couple of questions - did the Drazi Attack Run prevent the Centauri firing at all? It sounds like it did. It obviously wasn't overpowering enough that the Drazi won, though.
It sounds like the hunting pack contributed significantly to the Centauri victory in the second game. Was this the case? It sounds like the Balvarin was an excellent damage soak in one of the packs.
A Brakiri ship variant with shifters is coming.
A couple of questions - did the Drazi Attack Run prevent the Centauri firing at all? It sounds like it did. It obviously wasn't overpowering enough that the Drazi won, though.
It sounds like the hunting pack contributed significantly to the Centauri victory in the second game. Was this the case? It sounds like the Balvarin was an excellent damage soak in one of the packs.
A Brakiri ship variant with shifters is coming.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Burger said:
Because sometimes Matt pays more attention to the forums than his email.
I figured my original rather short post wouldn't do much if any harm, whilst raising the matter for Matt's attention.
LBH
Greg Smith said:
Indeed the Drazi attack runs did prevent Centauri ships from firing on several occasions but it was not over powering (just annoying) and indeed against high hull ships such as the Maximus they scored very few hits after the re-rolls on those repeaters and half or less the normal amount they would have on the beams. As I mentioned, this was a very close battle and if the Liati had been less effective or the Fireraptor more so it would have gone in the Drazi's favor easily.
Against the Brakiri the hunting packs provided a significant advantage as there was almost always at least a second target in arc against their weapons. Being able to redirect a huge beam against a simple dodge based patrol ship like the haven was telling and the Balvarin being able to soak up damage with little to no fear of taking penalties in doing a CBD or Scramble from the Comm disruptors may have been one of the single reasons the battle seemed so one-sided. Misses due to stealth when shots were redirected to a Covran also played a large part.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Davesaint and Ripple will shortly be posting their impressions, but we just ran 2 tests of Track That Target (Triple-T) and Attack Run.
The tests were 3 Warbirds, 3 Strikehawks against 6 Vorchans and against 6 Olympus.
Vs. Olympus, What Happened:
Initial finding was that the Drazi strongly underperformed. While TTT helped, it just wasn't enough. On the first turn, the Drazi were forced to choose between beam shots and no CBD vs. no shots but only eating the missiles. As it turned out, there was a third option that neither of us saw at the time, but would have been superior. One tactical mistake then snowballed and the Olympus at the Drazi for lunch.
What We Learned:
CQ 9 for TTT is just too hard for the Drazi; they need it at 8. However, I don't like EA having it at 8 (especially the Hyperion!); I'm thinking Drazi special rule.
One Attack Run succeeded, and did some decent damage. However, the requirement that hits had to be confirmed really stank. Decided then and there that failed Attack Runs should come with no firing penalty, and there should be no confirmation roll.
Turret races and ships eat Drazi for lunch.
Vs. Vorchans, What Happened:
A fortutitous dust cloud and some good initial placement allowed the Drazi and Vorchan exchange to be with the Drazi in the dust cloud and the Vorchans outside of it and outside of 8. One Drazi Strikehawks and several Particle Cannons didn't get to fire. However, two missed stealth checks and a 4-6 critical to a Vorchan meant only 3 Vorchans fired (still crippling 1 Warbird). Drazi eliminated one Vorchan in exchange. Drazi hit 1 TTT allowing for one set of potshots against a target that it normally couldn't have fired at (target ship was already dead). 3 Sky Serpents were then launched, against which the Vorchans proved to have little defense. Both fleets then overflew each other and started to come around; the Vorchans to avoid the Sky Serpents, and the Drazi to try Attack Runs. No Attack Runs succeeded (2 attempts). More of them couldnt be tried as the base size of the Warbird didn't clear the base of the target ship of the overrun. This happened repeatedly; some defenses even evolved where Attack Runs were prevented by keeping the Drazi from having a legal place to put the base of the overrunning craft after the shot, usually by having one ship directly behind the other. Turn 3, both fleets engaged; one Vorchan was killed outright by 3 Sky Serpents. The crippled Warbird, another Warbird, and a Strikehawk went down to Vorchans in exchange for 2 more Vorchans. 2 Track That Targets succeeded, but one never got to fire as a Vorchan squadron just decided to eliminate it. The other kept its original target. Down 3 ships to 2, the Centauri kept at it, got a good come about, but failed another Stealth check against the Dust Cloud. In exchange, that ship got shot, and the turn after, the Sky Serpents finished it off. At this point the game was over.
What We Learned:
Drazi got very, very lucky throughout the entire fight. Stealth saved them by the grace of dice alone, and they hit a ton of Come Abouts. TTT is the Drazi CAF roll, a SA you take on an attack run as an option of opportunity. The wording on TTT doesn't force you to take the off-bore shot, so you can keep your current target at full dice or use them off-bore for 1/2 dice; we love this option. You can positionally defend against Attack Run by playing base-denial games. We had one instance of the Drazi player wanting to move first (when have you ever heard that!?!) so his Attack Run target couldn't get away in time, very cool. Attack Run may succeed too rarely, but I'm not as certain about this one as a Drazi successfully TTTing on CQ 8 instead of 9, especially since there are tactical defenses. Supported Vorchans are much less ppwerful than supported ones. If the Centauri had Wolfpack as written, we would not have even had something you could call a game, no need for Interceptors, Stealth Targets, Sponges, nothing --- Hunting Packs are just busted.
Better tales will be told by Davesaint and Ripple.
The tests were 3 Warbirds, 3 Strikehawks against 6 Vorchans and against 6 Olympus.
Vs. Olympus, What Happened:
Initial finding was that the Drazi strongly underperformed. While TTT helped, it just wasn't enough. On the first turn, the Drazi were forced to choose between beam shots and no CBD vs. no shots but only eating the missiles. As it turned out, there was a third option that neither of us saw at the time, but would have been superior. One tactical mistake then snowballed and the Olympus at the Drazi for lunch.
What We Learned:
CQ 9 for TTT is just too hard for the Drazi; they need it at 8. However, I don't like EA having it at 8 (especially the Hyperion!); I'm thinking Drazi special rule.
One Attack Run succeeded, and did some decent damage. However, the requirement that hits had to be confirmed really stank. Decided then and there that failed Attack Runs should come with no firing penalty, and there should be no confirmation roll.
Turret races and ships eat Drazi for lunch.
Vs. Vorchans, What Happened:
A fortutitous dust cloud and some good initial placement allowed the Drazi and Vorchan exchange to be with the Drazi in the dust cloud and the Vorchans outside of it and outside of 8. One Drazi Strikehawks and several Particle Cannons didn't get to fire. However, two missed stealth checks and a 4-6 critical to a Vorchan meant only 3 Vorchans fired (still crippling 1 Warbird). Drazi eliminated one Vorchan in exchange. Drazi hit 1 TTT allowing for one set of potshots against a target that it normally couldn't have fired at (target ship was already dead). 3 Sky Serpents were then launched, against which the Vorchans proved to have little defense. Both fleets then overflew each other and started to come around; the Vorchans to avoid the Sky Serpents, and the Drazi to try Attack Runs. No Attack Runs succeeded (2 attempts). More of them couldnt be tried as the base size of the Warbird didn't clear the base of the target ship of the overrun. This happened repeatedly; some defenses even evolved where Attack Runs were prevented by keeping the Drazi from having a legal place to put the base of the overrunning craft after the shot, usually by having one ship directly behind the other. Turn 3, both fleets engaged; one Vorchan was killed outright by 3 Sky Serpents. The crippled Warbird, another Warbird, and a Strikehawk went down to Vorchans in exchange for 2 more Vorchans. 2 Track That Targets succeeded, but one never got to fire as a Vorchan squadron just decided to eliminate it. The other kept its original target. Down 3 ships to 2, the Centauri kept at it, got a good come about, but failed another Stealth check against the Dust Cloud. In exchange, that ship got shot, and the turn after, the Sky Serpents finished it off. At this point the game was over.
What We Learned:
Drazi got very, very lucky throughout the entire fight. Stealth saved them by the grace of dice alone, and they hit a ton of Come Abouts. TTT is the Drazi CAF roll, a SA you take on an attack run as an option of opportunity. The wording on TTT doesn't force you to take the off-bore shot, so you can keep your current target at full dice or use them off-bore for 1/2 dice; we love this option. You can positionally defend against Attack Run by playing base-denial games. We had one instance of the Drazi player wanting to move first (when have you ever heard that!?!) so his Attack Run target couldn't get away in time, very cool. Attack Run may succeed too rarely, but I'm not as certain about this one as a Drazi successfully TTTing on CQ 8 instead of 9, especially since there are tactical defenses. Supported Vorchans are much less ppwerful than supported ones. If the Centauri had Wolfpack as written, we would not have even had something you could call a game, no need for Interceptors, Stealth Targets, Sponges, nothing --- Hunting Packs are just busted.
Better tales will be told by Davesaint and Ripple.
they put all their power down one line rather than spread over a wider front.they are competitive anyway due to generally having more AD than fore arc beams.
then they get to use this SA so i dont think they also need to keep their boresight as they have refracted it to get the wider arc.
on WSs they should be boresight anyway, and with this SA they still get forward arc 50% of the time.
then they get to use this SA so i dont think they also need to keep their boresight as they have refracted it to get the wider arc.
on WSs they should be boresight anyway, and with this SA they still get forward arc 50% of the time.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
katadder said:
And they are still good at 2AD even if boresighted.
of course, the toning down of their weapons with these rules is nice
its not really toning them down much, the WS just flits around at the rear or sides using its 2AD 18" beam and the only people who can hit back are the minbari.
at least if it was boresight it requires more thought and maybe wouldnt be able to just sit around out there and get its target in arc.
at least if it was boresight it requires more thought and maybe wouldnt be able to just sit around out there and get its target in arc.
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