Playtest - Whitestar

[Foxmeister]

And if you noticed I didn't use the G'Quan as referrence point I said WAR CLASS or arma.

Yes you are right! *I* the G'Quan as a reference point before you mentioned war class or armaggedon! Originally you referred to this CBD "solving" the Narn problem for big ships, and made no mention of PL - as far as I'm concerned a G'Quan *is* a big ship. My response was to that statement. So you're changing the rules now to suit your argument!

where as if you had 2AD of beam and 5AD normal damage you would have the potential to do far more.

More than 5AD DD beam? I don't think so! I'd take the 5AD DD beam any day of the week.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Methos5000]

Methos - the problem is that it doesn't affect every ship in the same way. The rule is the same for every ship but the amount that it affects the ship's firepower changes radically. Just compare how it affects the Drakh Heavy Raider compared to the EA Nova Dreadnought and the Minbari Sharkaan. One ship will never use the SA once in range, one is unlikely to use it due to having multiple arcs of fire and the other will use it most of the time due to relying on one big beam as its main weapon.

I was referring to if AD were cut in half. Some ships may loose more AD especially the higher they get up the Priority scale but the end effect would be evey ship using it has its AD cut in half instead of being able to fire one weapon system.

Some ships, like the Octurion or Juyaca, will take a good sized AD loss for their weapons but will gain some survivability they more then likely would not have used before, once they are in close that is, because its killed everything except one weapon.

Plus it eliminates the issue of it being a no brainer SA for certain ships (Dag'kar and Demos, those Vree torpedo boats can't recall the name right now, for example)

Using your examples - the Heavy Raider would sacrifice 1AD of beam but gain 33% more damage and crew. The Nova could still fire all around to less effect but be able to survive return fire better and the Sharkaan while losing some good beam fire would retain the ability for fire all those 18" guns. Plus it can make for a more decisive choice, does the Sharkaan cut down its beam fire to protect itself better and shoot at the enemies that are approaching from port and starboard or risk taking fire while firing full beam and attacks at surrounding ships instead of now where they CBD fire the beam and hope the enemy doesn't get too many shots at them.

Minbari isn't the best example as there is the all or nothing stealth that needs to be broken granted but still I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.

I dunno, I just don't like the idea of these big ships some being unable to fire anything but one weapon when they go into lockdown....seems a little excessive a penalty for them.

 

[mollari_uk]

I agree it is a big change but all I see as causing a problem is that some big ships with lots of weapons get an advantage, but so what, they need it.

I'd prefer that over smaller ships currently getting an almost free +33% damage, making them very high in their PL. Larger ships on the proposed CBD will have so much damage that as previously suggested will be crit'd out of the game before the damage matters anyway. It just means that they get to use the SA if needed.

At the moment CBD is for cheese ships only.

 

[Triggy]

Methos - I know that's what you meant but it still affects some ships more than others because the change from what CBD does now (and the ships are balanced for) is different for different ships.

 

[skavendan]

*Post deleted it wasn't constructive enough*

 

[l33tpenguin]

Methos - I know that's what you meant but it still affects some ships more than others because the change from what CBD does now (and the ships are balanced for) is different for different ships.

So, the WS, Demos, etc are balanced currently under CBD? :?

 

[Triggy]

Methos - I know that's what you meant but it still affects some ships more than others because the change from what CBD does now (and the ships are balanced for) is different for different ships.

So, the WS, Demos, etc are balanced currently under CBD? :?

No, who's suggested that?

 

[CZuschlag]

At the moment CBD is for cheese ships only.

Rohric
Sho'Kos
Khatrik
Command Omega
Ria'stor Gris
Chronos
Rothan
Ria'vash
pak Ikorta
T'Rakk
T'Loth
G'Quan
pak Warbird
Omega
Ka'Tan
Elutarian
Urik'hal
Ma'cu

...none of which are cheesy.
---------------

Contention:

Total FAIL.

 

[mollari_uk]

Ok I'll include cheesy uses too.

Any ship with one long range weapon and at least one short ranged secondary weapon can sit at the back on CBD. This to me isn't what CBD is about. It should represent a ship in the thick of it preparing to get a beating. Not really caring too much about what it gives back.

The fact the so called "penalty" of CBD doesn't effect the ship means it's cheese.

 

[Hindsight]

I'm not disagreeing with you, BUT, at long range, you can still take a beating. A lot of long range weapons out there, that if you can only shoot your one gun that is in range, you might as well CBD, its free and its an easy bonus.

It isn't cheese to do something when its the only option you can do, and comes with no penalty, its just common sense. That doesn't mean that maybe it shouldn't be such a no brainer, and should half all AD, so that one gun that is in range, takes a reduction, and when you are in range, you still can fire all weapons and CBD while taking that half AD reduction instead of only firing one gun.

 

[Methos5000]

Methos - I know that's what you meant but it still affects some ships more than others because the change from what CBD does now (and the ships are balanced for) is different for different ships.

The problem I see with that though is many ships didn't change for 2nd ed but CBD changed in a huge way by saving crew too. That changed the balance right there because ISA never used CBD before, it was pointless on ships that regenerate damage but not crew.

Many said that the Whitestar was pretty balanced in 1st ed and then shocked at it being over the top in 2nd ed. Well many of the complaints seem to stem from the ultimate of layered defenses as some have mentioned above. If the Whitestars couldnt CBD (or, if the 1/2 AD change went into effect would lose half its firepower) wouldn't that help bring down its above average rating even a little?

As I mentioned earlier in this post CBD had a major revamp for 2nd ed and most ships were not rebalanced for that change.

If its too big a change well we have already had a couple of those already
FAP System update - changed to reduce swarm effectiveness
TTT - whatever version ends up being used can offer a major change in tactics

Is it too much to ask to at least see, since we are playtesting anyway, what kind of change a 1/2 AD CBD would do?

 

[skavendan]

*Post deleted it wasn't constructive enough*

 

[Methos5000]

I noticed you leave the ISA off that list thus I concluded you admit they are cheesy?

Maybe he didn't mention them because they are already being discussed. He shot down your argument that only a cheesy ship would use it by pointing out many ships that havent not been brought up as cheesy, plain and simple.

Also saying the whole ISA (based on your comment, he listed ships not fleets) is cheesy because of the Whitestar is like saying the Centauri is full of cheese because of the 2nd ed.version of the Demos or the Narn are cheesy because of the G'Vrahn. Both are being toned down and so is the Whitestar but that doesn't seem good enough for you.

For some reason you despise the Whitestar with a passion....did it kick your puppy or something?

Most people are trying to discuss ways of making the WS average for raid and not over the top, you seem to want it to be neutered and sitting at the very bottom of raid ships.

Why exactly do you hate the Whitestar so much?

Seriously when someone mentions the ISA all I hear from you is basically burn burn they deserve to die......

I'm not trying to start an argument here but to be honest most of your posts concerning the Whitestar or ISA in general haven't really been constructive to the discussion.

 

[skavendan]

*Post deleted it wasn't constructive enough*

 

[Methos5000]

Wow, I didn't expect you to delete your posts, I was mainly just wondering why you hate them so much. The reason I said it wasn't constructive was because, to me at least, your hatred of them seem to shine through more while others, who might hate them just as much at least tried to be cordial about it...I don't care if you hate the ISA (Whitestars in particular) but i was just curious as to why.

I mainly play ISA, to me and my group most of the problems that people here have we don't run into. I generally play my WS like knife fighters, same as Hindsight, and I am sure he has seen his fair share of WS go boom. So when they come out with a nerf that hurts the knife fighting style players more then the ones that just sit back at 18" you can see why I am opposed to this type of change.

A solution to the Whitestar issue, How about make both guns 12". They have the speed to close in and this would encourage players to get in closer and since both guns are the same range there is no reason to stay just outside of pulsar range and CBD under the current rules (not the proposed one for whitestars) when both guns are the same range. Sure you can still do it if you want but your not getting a range advantage anymore. Besides there seems to be enough on screen evidence that the Pulsars may have had a better range then the beam anyway.

Possible problems with this, they can almost never be out of arc against vree even on approach and Vree 10" guns can be nasty against WS (lots of hits means lots of potential failed dodges) if they can use their SM to get them into range.

skavendan, I'm sorry if my post offended you, I was just trying to find where the animosity came from and I guess I might have went a little over the line, your opinion is as valid as mine and maybe you have had some very bad experiences in game with Whitestars, many have, just as I have had some bad experiences facing Centauri and Dilgar with ISA before. I don't want to see them nerfed into non-existence and I don't want to see my Whitestar suffer the same fate.

Stackable defenses are a problem with the game mechanics, not just the Whitestar gets this advantage (Minbari CBD while sitting back with their long range beams get multiple layers of defense as well, especially if their flyers on interceptor duty.)

But for every race that has trouble with these advantages there are some who can ignore them completely (how many races get emines now? 8 with all three earth fleets, maybe 9 if Psi-corp earth allies can take fusion missiles I really don't know if they can to be honest) so 8-9 of the 19 main races can use emines to some degree and 2 of the remaining 10-11 have accurate guns in their arsenal which ignore one of the Whitestars biggest defenses.

So it must be very difficult to balance something like the Whitestar, its defenses will be seen as too good against some races and inadequate against others.

 

[skavendan]

Very decent of you to apologies but it is quiet ok I have a thick skin.

You where right though they where not constructive comments I have said my worth on the ISA several times I get bored of repeating myself but I can explain some what the factors that draw me to my conclusion.

I have now played and observed some 30-40 + games. At least half those have involved the ISA as are local ISA player is a keen gamer and fairly decent player.

On the hole any class of ship seems to be destroyable my the class below for example A Omega shooting at a warlock and getting lucky. But in my experience I have never witnessed this kind of damage inflicted on the ISA. And I have fired near 2 armageddon points worth at a whitestar carrier and it didn't die. (I'd also love to know how they justify being able to dodge while launching fighters that amuses me)

On several occasions I have tried and failed to destroy whitestars to the point where you hate them. The only redeaming factor of the Bluestar is the low range means you actually get to fire seconardies or in some cases primaries at it.

Your general Whitestar can have 4 saves which I find insane vs some races Not everyone has DD/Tripple damage coming out of there ears.

And one of the rules I hate the most is Precise. Try playing a early years EA vs Narn it's fun and you'll actually last a good few game turns unlike the ISA who will probably win by turn 6.

If I was say to change anything. I think as a hole secondary weapons should be in the 12-15" range for all races. Some just have so low secondaries there not even worth mentioning.

I also recon if you took Precise of of the beam that alone would tone down the Whitestar. I would see that rule removed completely. Or make Critical hits always single damage. That wouldn't make them so bad.

As the Psi Corp I lack E mines And even the silly new missile I would not take a 1 shot Emine for a arc of a ship is a poor choice. Unless I don't have to lose something to get it.

Fighters are a weakness of the whitestar and breaching pods but in general you have no chance of catching one. And generally they take a Emine ally to cover that hole.

But if we are talking strickly whitestars here if CBD didn't let you scout some players would think twice secondaries to 8" to equal the poor range of the narns secondaries. and perhapes B arc would be a reasonable starting point. But I already said I will eat my hat and say whitestars aren't broken the day they go B arc.

*Behold lord of the typeo's*

 

[Methos5000]

well I don't have a problem with the Whitestar going boresight, I would prefer it stay as F arc, but like I said in an earlier post (not sure if it was on this thread or another, Whitestars are being brought up in a lot of posts recently) but 90% of the time I could have probably boresighted my target. Its only really a problem if the enemy outsinks you and they have on occasion done that, but for now until the boresight/initiative problem is resolved I would just field a few more bluestars then I normally do.

I don't just sit bluestars in a corner either, they may take a little longer to get to the fight as the speed around the terrain and try to flank but they definitely get involved. Though from reading many posts on here it seems that ISA ships as knife fighters instead of sitting back safely seems to be the exception instead of the standard, unfortunatly.

I understand the precise issue as well,I also play Brakiri. They have excellent alpha strike ability but their second turn of firing is usually lackluster. But while they do have a precise weapon on a couple ships those weapons are either single damage on a skirmish ship or Beam DD precise in a large Armageddon ship.

I think the bigger issue with precise though is how nasty crits can be, they should be damaging but some crits are much nastier then others yet they all have an equal chance of landing. But unfortunately I think tweaking the crit table is too big a change.

I'm sorry to hear you have had such bad experiences with the ISA, dodge itself is a very powerful defense and many hate it as much as Stealth (as with both you are wasting fire). The problem with dodge though is that while it has been effective against your Psi-corp other races could care less for the most part. It would be nice if it could be balanced well against everyone, not being to good against one race and useless against another but I don't think there is anyway to do it short of dropping dodge as a ship trait all together, which is unlikely to happen.

I have been on both ends of Dodge rolling, I had a Whitestar get nailed with 8 DD hits once and got away with 1 damage and 1 crew, and I have had a Whitestar get hit once with a single damage gun(from a fighter even) that got past dodge which ended up being a 6-6 crit with a high damage roll....dead whitestar.

Like I said earlier many of the problems people have faced, yourself included, haven't happened in my group because I do get up close and personal with them, maybe not the best of strategies but then I like playing them like they are in the show, darting back and forth dangerously close to the enemy. Some times it works, other times not so well.

I also limit myself on allies that I take, I don't believe I have ever taken an emine ship and will never take Gaim as allies (they patch up ISA fleet weakness too well). This does mean that I'm not making my fleet as strong as I could be, but I also like to thing that I'm playing a fairer game even if it does cost me a victory.

But these are self imposed limits so I can't stop others from taking Gaim or other emine ships. However I would fully approve of a limited (or even removed) allies list if it would help limit alot of the issues that come up with the ISA.

 

[Tion]

Still think that boresighting the WS and then making its Track That Target SA cover the port and starboard arcs would satisfy alot of people, probably combined with a single beam dice.

I think that this would definately put them inbetween fighter and ship manoeuvrability, which is where they are shown to exist.

 

[The_Mhor]

The argument in favour of the WS beam being Front arc rather than Boresight seems to be that it is maneuverable enough to aim where it likes. However I think that this would be covered by the fact that the Whitestar fleet would be the only fleet with precise boresighted weaponry in the game. The only Precise boresighted weapon outside the ISA is the Lightning Cannon on the Excalibur, and that's unique and on loan from the ISA anyway.

I think a Whitestar with a boresighted but precise beam fits what we see in the show within the constraints of the ACTA system. Combined with the advantage Ranger crews have in achieving both Come About and the TTT SA, and the new Whitestar-only High Energy turn SA it would still be a ferocious vessel, more than capable of gutting larger ships in a single shot with a small helping of luck.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The argument in favour of the WS beam being Front arc rather than Boresight seems to be that it is maneuverable enough to aim where it likes. However I think that this would be covered by the fact that the Whitestar fleet would be the only fleet with precise boresighted weaponry in the game. The only Precise boresighted weapon outside the ISA is the Lightning Cannon on the Excalibur, and that's unique and on loan from the ISA anyway.

I think a Whitestar with a boresighted but precise beam fits what we see in the show within the constraints of the ACTA system. Combined with the advantage Ranger crews have in achieving both Come About and the TTT SA, and the new Whitestar-only High Energy turn SA it would still be a ferocious vessel, more than capable of gutting larger ships in a single shot with a small helping of luck.

The argument that it's agile enough to aim where it likes is pure bull. Its agility is represented in the movement phase. It has naff-all to do with the shooting phase.