[Playtest Focus] Equipment Chapter

MongooseMatt

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The Central Supply Catalogue is pretty much in a position where you chaps would be welcome to dive into it. However, it makes no sense to do so unless you are happy with the Equipment chapter in the Core.

So, could I please ask you chaps to focus your attention here? Specifically;

1. Costs (absolute and relative between different items).
2. Damage/Protection/General Rules.
3. TLs.

We'll do a sweep through the Equipment chapter and if it all looks ship shape, I'll pop CSC into the Playtest Files.

BTW, please note that the Auto trait has already changed - most weapons now have half the Auto score they used to do, and the Auto score is simply used as a damage bonus for semi and the number of attacks for full (basically, we just took the word 'halve' out of both!).
 
A Credit, by my estimation, equates most readily to a UK Pound. Right?

The main changes, I note, are that armour values have gone up a bit since the last edition, and in effect the battle dress values indicate immunity from conventional weapons. Only heavy weapons can cause damage. If that is the intent, the fine by me - although I think that battle dress ought to be a bit more expensive. 250,000-300,000 Cr and TLs 14 and 15 respectively, instead of their current scores.
 
TrippyHippy said:
A Credit, by my estimation, equates most readily to a UK Pound. Right?

Or a Dollar. Ish. There is no hard and fast rule here, but we generally start with a Dollar or Pound and then adjust.
 
We need to know how much in Credits a cup of coffee costs. If you know that, everything in teh Universe can be converted for comparison. :lol:
 
Stainless said:
We need to know how much in Credits a cup of coffee costs. If you know that, everything in teh Universe can be converted for comparison. :lol:
LOL. I had a teacher once tell us to do the same thing using a fast food meal. So a car was X number of meals. Total flash back moment for me. :mrgreen:
 
A quick question before I run through trying to get a basic load-out on a character I generated earlier, you are limited to spending 2k on at hand gear regardless of your actual mustering out cash, right?

Other than that, as I mentioned elsewhere and as others noted either the price of armour or the budget provided by the armour mustering out benefit seems to be way out of alignment. The Weapon mustering out benefit also feels a bit light, but not on the same scale.
 
-Daniel- said:
Stainless said:
We need to know how much in Credits a cup of coffee costs. If you know that, everything in teh Universe can be converted for comparison. :lol:
LOL. I had a teacher once tell us to do the same thing using a fast food meal. So a car was X number of meals. Total flash back moment for me. :mrgreen:

I use it habitually as a basic comparator. When you realise something is only 2 x a cup of coffee, it suddenly doesn't sound that expensive.

However, on a serious note, it's what Adventurer, Conqueror, King (ACKS) did for their whole system. They firstly thought out what the unit costs were for basic items like bread, wine, etc. and then extrapolated to how much wages would be and from there extrapolated to how much things like individual services would cost. Makes it an internally consistent system.

See, http://www.autarch.co/blog/starting-ground-upliterally

Of course Traveller will be much more complicated because you have different tech levels, economies, automation, etc.
 
Ok, I have organized my thoughts on the equipment. In the list are some questions rather that “points” because in some cases I am not sure there is a problem. I just want to be sure you intended things to be a particular way.

Overall:
- I know it has already been posted, but please use a different font and color in those areas that are now “Orange on Black” The font makes it hard to read and the color makes it even harder. Use a crisp edge font.

Armour:
- Weight for Combat Armour seems too high. It had a major jump from the last addition and as it is now, the TL13 Combat Armor weighs more than some of the Characters.
- Should the Combat Armour have a VaccSuit 0 or 1 Required Skill because the description says it acts as a VaccSuit.
- Battle Dress Required Skills Feel too high. Maybe lower by 1 so that TL 13 is VaccSuit-2 and TL14 is VaccSuit-1?
-Are the Options listed on Page 97 for Battle Dress only? It seems like they are not, but with the heading they have now, it looks like they are only listed under the previous paragraph. If they are for all armour where applicable then I would increase the header on this section to have a greater weight to reflect its status as a new section apart from the Battle Dress listing above it.

Augments:
- Was it intentional to have the Cognitive to space out one TL above the other three attribute augmentations? If so, fine, I just saw the break in the pattern and wanted to point it out if it was not intended.

Medical:
- I would give the Replacements paragraph on page 108 a header the same size and type as those seem on page 109. The replacements are items being purchased. As it is now the entry sort of gets lost.

Survival Gear:
- Not sure why the Tool Kits page (113) was placed between the Survival Gear table and the notes for that table. I would move the Tool Kits after the notes pages. So the flow of information would be page 112, 114, 115, 113. Keeps the notes together after the chart.

Melee Weapons:
- If using a shield as a weapon, should it have bulky as a trait? Not sure, just seems like it would.

Slug Throwers:
- Should Gauss Pistol be given Auto 4 to alight with past additions/historical presidents?

Overall nothing really bad, other than the Combat Armor Weights jumped out at me. I found the sections easy to follow and when seen as page spreads, look good.
 
I just realized that the tailored vacc suit has been moved to TL 12. No complaints, just a "huh, interesting!"

Just to be clear, this is the "can be used as duty-uniform" vacc suit, that looks and feel almost like regular clothing, but is vacc proof, yes?

As I understand it, there has been some recent research into using skintight suits instead of the bulky traditional space suits, so moving it to an earlier TL does sound appropriate.
 
Major Tom said:
A quick question before I run through trying to get a basic load-out on a character I generated earlier, you are limited to spending 2k on at hand gear regardless of your actual mustering out cash, right?

That is correct.
 
msprange said:
Major Tom said:
A quick question before I run through trying to get a basic load-out on a character I generated earlier, you are limited to spending 2k on at hand gear regardless of your actual mustering out cash, right?

That is correct.
These questions are intended for Mongoose to help understand their concepts behind the rules and be better able to offer feedback.

What is the purpose of the Cr2000 limit on initial spending?

Any reasoning behind why Cr2000 whether you roll 1,2 or 3 cash benefits, no matter if you have exactly Cr2000 and are spending every credit or Cr200000 spending just 1%, no matter if you had a career on a cramped Navel vessel or were a Nobel living the good life?

Can something purchased with cash from a benefit at the end of one career be used during future careers? For example, purchasing a computer with an expert program might help with an event task roll.
 
CosmicGamer said:
What is the purpose of the Cr2000 limit on initial spending?

Generally two fold.

First off, minor point, gets character creation over quickly and then onto the game.

Second, it means players do not automatically start with the very best in weapons and armour (same reason for the TL limit), and that some effort, at least, has to be made to acquire them, however rich you are. Add the Availability rules coming in CSC, and it adds another obstacle.

You are free, of course, to ignore the limit but, as a Core rule, we strongly recommend it.
 
Thanks Matt for the response. How about the last question I had:

Can something purchased with cash from a benefit at the end of one career be used during future careers? For example, purchasing a computer with an expert program might help with an event task roll.
 
CosmicGamer said:
Thanks Matt for the response. How about the last question I had:

Can something purchased with cash from a benefit at the end of one career be used during future careers? For example, purchasing a computer with an expert program might help with an event task roll.

Interesting interpretation.

The intention (originally, at least) was that you purchase items after all careers are done...
 
msprange said:
CosmicGamer said:
Thanks Matt for the response. How about the last question I had:

Can something purchased with cash from a benefit at the end of one career be used during future careers? For example, purchasing a computer with an expert program might help with an event task roll.
Interesting interpretation.

The intention (originally, at least) was that you purchase items after all careers are done...
My interpretation is based on
"Benefits are gained when a Traveller leaves a career."

I had already assumed things like INT and other characteristic benefits would be available for any additional careers. Is this as intended?

then under cash benefits
"If the Traveller has any money left, he may purchase
personal equipment worth up to Cr2000 immediately."
To fit the original intention, perhaps this could be reworded.
 
msprange said:
CosmicGamer said:
What is the purpose of the Cr2000 limit on initial spending?
Generally two fold.

First off, minor point, gets character creation over quickly and then onto the game.

Second, it means players do not automatically start with the very best in weapons and armour (same reason for the TL limit), and that some effort, at least, has to be made to acquire them, however rich you are. Add the Availability rules coming in CSC, and it adds another obstacle.

You are free, of course, to ignore the limit but, as a Core rule, we strongly recommend it.
I could see one exception. Medical. If the person lost a limb or eye as one of my characters did thanks to some "bad" die rolls during an event, then I would allow the Character to spend the 10,000 to replace the item if they had the cash rather than carry a medical debt into the game that they could just pay off anyway.
 
This might be controversial but with an equipment catalogue coming out is there really any point in including entire sections that contain practically nothing a PC can buy at character generation? Augmentation jumps right out as a prime offender here. As the character I generated to test the system pre-change to roll & assign had truly woeful key stats for his role that's the first place I went to, only to discover that I could afford a total of one item on the list, an audio only neural comm and that would set me back half my starting cash. The prices in that section do seem to be several orders of magnitude too high tough. I get that Traveler is not a cyberpunk style game but it's very jarring that in an ultra tech setting basic cybernetics are more expensive than vehicles.

A single Armour mustering out benefit just doesn't cut it. The most expensive armour I can pick up is 1.5k of a 10k budget. Either combat armour and vac suits need to be significantly reduced in price or the initial budget needs to be 100k. I get not wanting starting PCs wandering around in Battle Dress, so probably a big drop in the price on the others would be best. Likewise the mustering out benefits relating to ranged weapons seem light, but less so than armour. Raising it to 3k so it enables the purchase of basic laser weaponary should sort it.

Basic survival equipment and communications gear seem well priced (I don't think I've ever played a Traveller character who didn't own a breather mask :wink: ) as does sensor kit with the possible exception of the TL9 LI/IR goggles seeming over-costed. A 900 credit price point seems more reasonable (a slight discount on buying both separately I know).

The computers & medical sections would benefit from having their format changed to match the rest of the equipment chapter with a complete price table followed by descriptions (a format I like overall). Medkits are on the expensive side given that they are an absolute requirement to provide first aid. You'll spend half your maximum starting credits for the most basic, or three-quarters if you want a slightly fancy one. Putting the TL8 one at 100 credits and the TL10 one at 500 credits would be resonable if you want to prevent access to the higher DMs at the starting level. I'd be tempted to just knock a 0 off the back of all of them to be honest. You are limited to TL12 at generation anyway (going back to my first point, maybe remove all the kit that's more than TL12 too). Anyway, that's it from an initial pass. Hope it's helpful.
 
TrippyHippy said:
The main changes, I note, are that armour values have gone up a bit since the last edition, and in effect the battle dress values indicate immunity from conventional weapons. Only heavy weapons can cause damage. If that is the intent, the fine by me - although I think that battle dress ought to be a bit more expensive. 250,000-300,000 Cr and TLs 14 and 15 respectively, instead of their current scores.
I second that. As written, most personal weapons cannot damage a character wearing Battledress (except for 1 damage for high enough Effect) and can only superficially damage characters wearing Combat Armour.

I'd add AP values to some of the weapons, especially heavy energy weapons, to counteract this. I'd even add an AP value to most rifle-scale and heavier weapon (maybe AP3) as they should penetrate armor far better than pistol-scale weapons (and maybe add an AP value to broadswords as well).
 
I actually like the new armour ratings, the old version, especially for combat armour and battle dress were just too low (pistols and TL7 assault rifles could easily penetrate TL11-12 combat armour (not very good combat armour if a low tech weapon can punch through.) As i have yet to play test them, i do not know if these current values are right though.
 
I decided to look at the armour from a slightly different direction. I looked at the Cost per point of protection to see if there was anything out of wack...

In General, primitive armour (non Vacuum rated) runs about Cr.33 to Cr.75 per point. A TL7 Flak Jacket is actually the cheapest at Cr.33 per point and the Mesh and Albat are the most expensive at Cr.75 per point.

REFLEC is the clear violator of this rule. Reflec costs Cr.150 per point and is also 3 times more expensive on an absolute basis than TL10 Cloth. Somehow this seems off. I know the price of Reflec has been pretty high since CT, but now that I can look at all the armours together, it is too high. I suggest lowering the cost of Reflec to about Cr.750 (half it's value). It is still more expensive than Cloth, but is much more in line with the other costs.

Combat Armour is 100 times more expensive than earlier armours per point of protection. At TL10, it offers 1.5 times the protection of Cloth but is 120 times more expensive.

Vacc Suits are 50 times more expensive for the same level of protection (at TL10) than Cloth armour.

HES Suits are only about 50% more expensive per point of protection than a vacc suit. That seems reasonable as the extras are not in the area of weapons protection, but personal protection.

Battle Dress is not that much more expensive than Combat Armour... At TL12, Combat Armour is Cr.5176 per point of protection and BD is Cr.9090 per point of protection.

I am OK with the relations between Combat Armour, Vacc Suits, HES Suits and BD relative to each other but I think the cost of Combat Armour is WAY higher than it should be compared to Cloth.

I think Combat Armour, Vacc Suits, HES Suits and BD should all be about 10% of their current prices. This would keep them more in line with the non-vacuum rated armours but still have them be tens of times more expensive. As it is they are HUNDREDS of times more expensive and I think that is too much.
 
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