If you take atrip to Planet Mongoose today, you'll find a quick run down of the new design system within the Vehicle Handbook!
Planet Mongoose takes on the Vehicle Handbook
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Please, please, please, PLEASE run this through a vigorous editing process!
It's a shame that the first two books are essentially throw-aways now, so since we have to pay for this twice, don't give us the shaft when it comes to quality control! Let's make sure the index is the right one, the designs in the book can actually be replicated with the design-system, and the illustrations and anything else is in the right place with the right attributes and descriptions.
I'd rather Mongoose kept the money I've already given them than take back 'bad' books and offer me additional ones as recompense. While you certainly get an 'A' for effort... I'd rather the profits get put back into the business instead of expensively correcting mistakes.
It's a shame that the first two books are essentially throw-aways now, so since we have to pay for this twice, don't give us the shaft when it comes to quality control! Let's make sure the index is the right one, the designs in the book can actually be replicated with the design-system, and the illustrations and anything else is in the right place with the right attributes and descriptions.
I'd rather Mongoose kept the money I've already given them than take back 'bad' books and offer me additional ones as recompense. While you certainly get an 'A' for effort... I'd rather the profits get put back into the business instead of expensively correcting mistakes.
I think that you have a typo in the design example ...
It starts with 8 spaces,
subtracts 8 spaces for a big engine [8-8=0]
adds three spaces for a smaller gas tank [0+3=3]
Dedicates 4 spaces to passengers [3-4=-1]
and has 1 space left over for cargo.[-1-1=-2 spaces]
Oops. (If I were a gambling man, I'd say that 8 spaces for the big engine is wrong).
It starts with 8 spaces,
subtracts 8 spaces for a big engine [8-8=0]
adds three spaces for a smaller gas tank [0+3=3]
Dedicates 4 spaces to passengers [3-4=-1]
and has 1 space left over for cargo.[-1-1=-2 spaces]
Oops. (If I were a gambling man, I'd say that 8 spaces for the big engine is wrong).
That's a good point Wil. Here's the link - http://blog.mongoosepublishing.co.uk/
I also just realized that there isn't a handy link in the forum to take you directly back to the home page. I had thought (silly me) that clicking on the rather large and prominent "Mongoose Publishing" icon in the upper left hand corner would take me back to the home page. Alas, it takes me back to the home page of the forums. And even there I didn't see anything to clicky on to take me where I wanted to go.
PS - 'clicky' is a highly technical term.
PPS - me now doth thinks (and realizes) that perhaps the web designer forgot something...
I also just realized that there isn't a handy link in the forum to take you directly back to the home page. I had thought (silly me) that clicking on the rather large and prominent "Mongoose Publishing" icon in the upper left hand corner would take me back to the home page. Alas, it takes me back to the home page of the forums. And even there I didn't see anything to clicky on to take me where I wanted to go.
PS - 'clicky' is a highly technical term.
PPS - me now doth thinks (and realizes) that perhaps the web designer forgot something...
hdan said:
"4 Spaces will be taken up by passengers and the driver (we won’t go Double Occupancy on this car, leaving that for the minis driven by students instead…) and, currently, 1 Space left for cargo, or about 250 Kg or thereabouts. Again, if you have seen the boot (trunk) of a Jaguar, that is probably generous!"
It is an XJR class.
phavoc said:
This is not a fault of Mongoose Publishing but is a "feature" of the phpBB forum software. It's the same with all other forums using this software. e.g., try the Pinnacle forums.
Colin
Mongoose
So, let's create a military vehicle. Please note that I am not necessarily using the final version of the rules here.
We'll make it a TL 14 grav vehicle, carrying 9 human troops, standard seating. We want space for weapons and upgrades, along with a crew of 2, so lets say 22 Spaces.
An 22 Space Heavy Grav vehicle would cost us Cr2.2 million, with a Hull rating of 11 and a Structure rating of 11. Base Agility is +1, and it will take up 11 tons in cargo on a starship.
At TL 14, base speed is 600 km/h, and range is 5000 km
To make it an AFV, we add 100% of the cost, for another 2.2 million. An AFV also has half the base range, or 3000 km, and uses 2.2 (round to 2) Spaces.
We now have 20 Spaces to work with.
Next we add armour to the chassis. Base armour at TL 14 is 5. And AFV doubles the base armour, so we start out with 10. Maximum armour for an AFV is 15 times the base, for 150. AS this is a infantry vehicle, we don't need to go that high. Let's say 100.
To double armour to 20 costs 10% of the base vehicle cost. To increase it by 90 points costs 80% of the base cost of MCr2, or MCr1.6
Increasing base armour 9 times results in a speed reduction or 180 kph for a grav vehicle, so we're down to 420 kph. Further changes to speed will be based on this total.
Total cost so far is MCr6
As a fighting vehicle, we want weapons. The primary weapon will be a VRF gauss gun. 4 Spaces, MCr0.2
Second it will mount 4 Light Anti-Air Tac missiles for long range fire. 2 spaces total, MCr0.012
All the weapons will go in a turret, which itself uses a Space, for a total of 7 Spaces. The Turret costs MCr0.175
Additionally, we will add 4 gun ports so the passengers can fire out, for a total of MCr0.001
There are 13 Spaces remaining.
We'll assign 2 crew, and allow for 9 troops (Squad plus lieutenant), so there are 2 spaces left.
Upgrades
Advanced Controls +1 Agility, MCr0.01, plus MCr0.2
Autopilot Flyer (Grav)/3, MCr0.017
Anti-missile explosive belt MCr0.015
Hostile Environment Protection 1 Space, MCr0.11
Standard Navigation MCr0.01
Extreme Range Comm with encryption 1/2 Space, MCr0.004
ECM, Standard MCr0.02
Standard Sensors 1/2 Space MCr0.06
IR Mask II, MCr0.55
Total cost is MCr7.174
Skill: Flyer (Grav)
Agility: +2
Crew: 2
Passengers: 9
Cargo: 0
Armour: 100
Hull: 11
Structure: 11
Cost: MCr7.178
We'll make it a TL 14 grav vehicle, carrying 9 human troops, standard seating. We want space for weapons and upgrades, along with a crew of 2, so lets say 22 Spaces.
An 22 Space Heavy Grav vehicle would cost us Cr2.2 million, with a Hull rating of 11 and a Structure rating of 11. Base Agility is +1, and it will take up 11 tons in cargo on a starship.
At TL 14, base speed is 600 km/h, and range is 5000 km
To make it an AFV, we add 100% of the cost, for another 2.2 million. An AFV also has half the base range, or 3000 km, and uses 2.2 (round to 2) Spaces.
We now have 20 Spaces to work with.
Next we add armour to the chassis. Base armour at TL 14 is 5. And AFV doubles the base armour, so we start out with 10. Maximum armour for an AFV is 15 times the base, for 150. AS this is a infantry vehicle, we don't need to go that high. Let's say 100.
To double armour to 20 costs 10% of the base vehicle cost. To increase it by 90 points costs 80% of the base cost of MCr2, or MCr1.6
Increasing base armour 9 times results in a speed reduction or 180 kph for a grav vehicle, so we're down to 420 kph. Further changes to speed will be based on this total.
Total cost so far is MCr6
As a fighting vehicle, we want weapons. The primary weapon will be a VRF gauss gun. 4 Spaces, MCr0.2
Second it will mount 4 Light Anti-Air Tac missiles for long range fire. 2 spaces total, MCr0.012
All the weapons will go in a turret, which itself uses a Space, for a total of 7 Spaces. The Turret costs MCr0.175
Additionally, we will add 4 gun ports so the passengers can fire out, for a total of MCr0.001
There are 13 Spaces remaining.
We'll assign 2 crew, and allow for 9 troops (Squad plus lieutenant), so there are 2 spaces left.
Upgrades
Advanced Controls +1 Agility, MCr0.01, plus MCr0.2
Autopilot Flyer (Grav)/3, MCr0.017
Anti-missile explosive belt MCr0.015
Hostile Environment Protection 1 Space, MCr0.11
Standard Navigation MCr0.01
Extreme Range Comm with encryption 1/2 Space, MCr0.004
ECM, Standard MCr0.02
Standard Sensors 1/2 Space MCr0.06
IR Mask II, MCr0.55
Total cost is MCr7.174
Skill: Flyer (Grav)
Agility: +2
Crew: 2
Passengers: 9
Cargo: 0
Armour: 100
Hull: 11
Structure: 11
Cost: MCr7.178
Just some general observations:
KISS - Its obvious some items are fractions of 'spaces' and naturally the design was started with some base standard in mind to conceptualize volumes. But, it is rather silly to stick to that in an arbitrary system being created from the ground up when most people have an easier time dealing with larger whole number values than decimals (not myself, but whole numbers are more 'elegant').
I.e., if the smallest unit likely to be used is 0.25 spaces then multiply everything by 4 (originally), and remove the need for fractional values (except maybe the rarest of cases).
Expect the above was a quick post, but please check that text matches numerical values or explains fully how they were figured. Notably, for 'half' of 5,000 one expects 2,500. Thus, 3,000 could be a mistake or it could be rounding.
Hope someone has come up with a standard way of listing things (would have started with this). The last part above looks good, except, where is the speed and the range? Also, this being for a Sci-Fi game, every vehicle should indicate what atmo's they can operate in, whether pressure is maintained for occupants, and what Gs they can operate in (notably whether zero G). At the very least.
Anyway, sounds like an improvement over prior works - good job! 8)
BTW: 'spaces' works and is a great improvement over explicit cubic meters or 'tons'. The use of the phrase dton and ton was a bad idea in spaceship design - even calling it displacement ton to indicate its volume nature was technically wrong. (I defined it as 'Design Ton' for my players, abbreviated dton :roll: ). However, as the word 'space' has other standard uses in English, how about something unique, like Vehicle Units (vu).
KISS - Its obvious some items are fractions of 'spaces' and naturally the design was started with some base standard in mind to conceptualize volumes. But, it is rather silly to stick to that in an arbitrary system being created from the ground up when most people have an easier time dealing with larger whole number values than decimals (not myself, but whole numbers are more 'elegant').
I.e., if the smallest unit likely to be used is 0.25 spaces then multiply everything by 4 (originally), and remove the need for fractional values (except maybe the rarest of cases).
Expect the above was a quick post, but please check that text matches numerical values or explains fully how they were figured. Notably, for 'half' of 5,000 one expects 2,500. Thus, 3,000 could be a mistake or it could be rounding.
Hope someone has come up with a standard way of listing things (would have started with this). The last part above looks good, except, where is the speed and the range? Also, this being for a Sci-Fi game, every vehicle should indicate what atmo's they can operate in, whether pressure is maintained for occupants, and what Gs they can operate in (notably whether zero G). At the very least.
Anyway, sounds like an improvement over prior works - good job! 8)
BTW: 'spaces' works and is a great improvement over explicit cubic meters or 'tons'. The use of the phrase dton and ton was a bad idea in spaceship design - even calling it displacement ton to indicate its volume nature was technically wrong. (I defined it as 'Design Ton' for my players, abbreviated dton :roll: ). However, as the word 'space' has other standard uses in English, how about something unique, like Vehicle Units (vu).
Of course, as I posted - 'naturally the design was started with some base standard in mind to conceptualize volumes.' Just like the 'foot' was probably originally based on human anatomy. :wink:
Such is a good basis for 'figuring' size relationships in the initial design. However, later it can be replaced by something easier to use. In this case, the smallest normal parts encountered - hence avoiding unnecessary fractions the majority of the time.
CT's dton was conceptually based on the volume occupied by 1 ton of liquid H2 (STP), which is ~14 cubic meters. For mapping purposes that is approximated by 13.5 cubic meters using standard 1.5 meter per square deckplans. The dton should have then been officially 'redefined' based on that, otherwise the 'missing' ~3.6% starts to add up. Quite silly in a game setting. :roll:
Similar adjustments have happened in real-life with standard units redefined based on other standard units rounded to a given precision - the foot being a great example, re: the survey foot vs. the international foot.
Such is a good basis for 'figuring' size relationships in the initial design. However, later it can be replaced by something easier to use. In this case, the smallest normal parts encountered - hence avoiding unnecessary fractions the majority of the time.
CT's dton was conceptually based on the volume occupied by 1 ton of liquid H2 (STP), which is ~14 cubic meters. For mapping purposes that is approximated by 13.5 cubic meters using standard 1.5 meter per square deckplans. The dton should have then been officially 'redefined' based on that, otherwise the 'missing' ~3.6% starts to add up. Quite silly in a game setting. :roll:
Similar adjustments have happened in real-life with standard units redefined based on other standard units rounded to a given precision - the foot being a great example, re: the survey foot vs. the international foot.
Colin
Mongoose
That would be correct. 1 Space = 1 human.
That vehicle design was done on the fly, using my phone as a calculator. We could also apply the optional armour allocation rule, and give it more armour on front, and less elsewhere, or substittue an FGMP-14 in place of the VRF gauss gun. That would free up more Spaces, too.
That vehicle design was done on the fly, using my phone as a calculator. We could also apply the optional armour allocation rule, and give it more armour on front, and less elsewhere, or substittue an FGMP-14 in place of the VRF gauss gun. That would free up more Spaces, too.
So, the design above is 22 humans in 'size'?
That's not awkward? :?
The foot again is an example - the average person doesn't have 12 inch (er, 12 average thumb width) feet. More like closer to 3/4 of that or less (depending on gender, race, etc.). Which, of course, is more awkward than saying 9 inches. Fractions and decimal points are rarely used in everyday measures - we make other names for them.
That's not awkward? :?
The foot again is an example - the average person doesn't have 12 inch (er, 12 average thumb width) feet. More like closer to 3/4 of that or less (depending on gender, race, etc.). Which, of course, is more awkward than saying 9 inches. Fractions and decimal points are rarely used in everyday measures - we make other names for them.
Calculator nothing - already got the spreadsheet made up... 
And please don't suggest any more changes - I fear Matthew may go on a killing spree if we were to do so... :shock:
The biggest "complication" with the system is that there is just so many different modifications, weapons, equipment options and vehicle templates... I'll be making sure that there's a master table of all the modifications and so on to make life easier (even if I have to do it). The actual design work would then be a doddle. Right now, even with multiple printouts, it's a pain to keep flicking back and forth looking up costs... but quite frankly, if that's my biggest problem, then (to me, at least) the system works. You may find that some designs seem a little strange at first, but some thought and you'll often see why/how they could be that way. My favourite little feature is the simple Spaces = shipping dtonnage for each design - so if you want to design a submersible to fit into a specific bay, you know precisely how big it will be in Spaces... (HINT: don't expect a Scout's air/raft bay to hold a submersible worth much in the way of range or capability... I think it'll need a bit more room than that).
There's options, weapon-wise for bomb/missile bays, external mounts, fixed mounts, pintel & ring (cupola) mounts (powered and unpowered), small turrets (remotely operated), Large turrets (with room for the crew, just to keep people happy) and I'm sure I've missed one out somewhere. Also, you can have split Open Top (crew/passenger area) and Open Cargo Bay, so you can have both flatbed trucks and, if your fancy goes that way, an open-cabbed Van, you can claw back Spaces through reducing the performance of the vehicle and, if weight is an issue, make the whole thing Open Framed, vastly reducing the weight, but at the expense of armour (max of 1, as things stand, if panelling is installed, otherwise none).
Also: Spaces... they should translate pretty easily to dtons too - a Space is defined as 1 person's room in a vehicle (1.5mx1.5m - imagine a chair on the floor) with a ceiling of around 1.5 to 2m. This translates to around 0.5 dtons, in my head, to the Space (allowing for structure under and to the sides of the cargo area). I know there'll be room either side and on top, but unless you're moving from one end of the country to the other, like we did, you tend not to load your vehicle until it creaks... :lol:
Lastly: rounding... Matthew told me a while back, that you round all fractions up (except hull) BEFORE multiplying out, so if you get a result that says you have 3.1 Spaces per upgrade, 4 such upgrades would be 16, not 13... it's less "fair", but it DOES mean that if stomps on abuses (I could see designs with rounding done precisely to 0.95 or 0.49 otherwise) and it does vastly simplify calculations. I've got a design sheet that I'll try to refine a little more and then release to the Traveller public for this system (somehow - most likely by asking Matthew to put it up on the site) and that makes life much easier. Presumably you'd round all bonuses DOWN, thinking about it... hopefully Matthew will put a brief section in to guide people on this.
I would recommend a calculator though... but only for working out percentages of things (eg speed, range, etc and for using the guidelines to calculate mass (better done while designing, IMO, rather than when at the table - it's a vastly simplified system, but still enough to cause a little swearing when you try to rush it).
My verdict of the system is that it's a good little system and, now after pulling it to bits and deliberately trying to break it (I swear poor Matthew goes a little more bald whenever he sees a mail from me in his inbox now) before Rust, BP and the rest of you hooligans could do so
, it's a simple-enough system that, with proper system-aids, it'll be doable mid-session (would recommend sending the players for comfort breaks/snacks/to check on the time of a TV program while doing so though (and then only because you can see from Matthew's example's errors what happens when people don't leave you alone when you're trying to do it).
Now, at 5:40 am, I'm going to go back to bed.
And please don't suggest any more changes - I fear Matthew may go on a killing spree if we were to do so... :shock:
The biggest "complication" with the system is that there is just so many different modifications, weapons, equipment options and vehicle templates... I'll be making sure that there's a master table of all the modifications and so on to make life easier (even if I have to do it). The actual design work would then be a doddle. Right now, even with multiple printouts, it's a pain to keep flicking back and forth looking up costs... but quite frankly, if that's my biggest problem, then (to me, at least) the system works. You may find that some designs seem a little strange at first, but some thought and you'll often see why/how they could be that way. My favourite little feature is the simple Spaces = shipping dtonnage for each design - so if you want to design a submersible to fit into a specific bay, you know precisely how big it will be in Spaces... (HINT: don't expect a Scout's air/raft bay to hold a submersible worth much in the way of range or capability... I think it'll need a bit more room than that).
There's options, weapon-wise for bomb/missile bays, external mounts, fixed mounts, pintel & ring (cupola) mounts (powered and unpowered), small turrets (remotely operated), Large turrets (with room for the crew, just to keep people happy
) and I'm sure I've missed one out somewhere. Also, you can have split Open Top (crew/passenger area) and Open Cargo Bay, so you can have both flatbed trucks and, if your fancy goes that way, an open-cabbed Van, you can claw back Spaces through reducing the performance of the vehicle and, if weight is an issue, make the whole thing Open Framed, vastly reducing the weight, but at the expense of armour (max of 1, as things stand, if panelling is installed, otherwise none).Also: Spaces... they should translate pretty easily to dtons too - a Space is defined as 1 person's room in a vehicle (1.5mx1.5m - imagine a chair on the floor) with a ceiling of around 1.5 to 2m. This translates to around 0.5 dtons, in my head, to the Space (allowing for structure under and to the sides of the cargo area). I know there'll be room either side and on top, but unless you're moving from one end of the country to the other, like we did, you tend not to load your vehicle until it creaks... :lol:
Lastly: rounding... Matthew told me a while back, that you round all fractions up (except hull) BEFORE multiplying out, so if you get a result that says you have 3.1 Spaces per upgrade, 4 such upgrades would be 16, not 13... it's less "fair", but it DOES mean that if stomps on abuses (I could see designs with rounding done precisely to 0.95 or 0.49 otherwise) and it does vastly simplify calculations. I've got a design sheet that I'll try to refine a little more and then release to the Traveller public for this system (somehow - most likely by asking Matthew to put it up on the site) and that makes life much easier. Presumably you'd round all bonuses DOWN, thinking about it... hopefully Matthew will put a brief section in to guide people on this.
I would recommend a calculator though... but only for working out percentages of things (eg speed, range, etc and for using the guidelines to calculate mass (better done while designing, IMO, rather than when at the table - it's a vastly simplified system, but still enough to cause a little swearing when you try to rush it).
My verdict of the system is that it's a good little system and, now after pulling it to bits and deliberately trying to break it (I swear poor Matthew goes a little more bald whenever he sees a mail from me in his inbox now) before Rust, BP and the rest of you hooligans could do so
, it's a simple-enough system that, with proper system-aids, it'll be doable mid-session (would recommend sending the players for comfort breaks/snacks/to check on the time of a TV program while doing so though (and then only because you can see from Matthew's example's errors what happens when people don't leave you alone when you're trying to do it).Now, at 5:40 am, I'm going to go back to bed.
Looks interesting.
As noted, I don't mind a deliberately "soft" but easy to use system as long as it produces fairly sensible results.
Most interested in the fact that powered armour design is apparently part of the book as well; any chance of a taster? Presumably that can't work on a human-sized space system...
As noted, I don't mind a deliberately "soft" but easy to use system as long as it produces fairly sensible results.
Most interested in the fact that powered armour design is apparently part of the book as well; any chance of a taster? Presumably that can't work on a human-sized space system...
