Pirates of Drinax - GMs thread

[GabrielGABFonseca]

Is there such a thing as an "educated wild ass guess"? My estimate was grounded a bit in some T5 statements about the non-human population of the Imperium. I can't remember if the figure came from T5 itself, an Imperiallines issues, or Agent of the Imperium, but somewhere there's a statement that something like 50% of the Imperial population is non-human.

I do believe I know what you are referring to; you're thinking to the excellent article by MWM himself 'Nobility in the Third Imperium (Part 1)', which went up on Imperiallines 7. In it, he states the following:

While the Imperium was created by Humaniti and continues to be dominated by humans, roughly half of the nobles in the Imperium are non-Humans or minor Human races that have diverged significantly from the Sylean, Vilani, and Solomani norm, and the Human half includes those minor races that remain part of the main Human genetic pool. In general, no other race comprises more than 5% of the non-Human noble population, though the Vargr have exceeded that number at times, and the Aslan, Bwaps, and Suerrat routinely approach it. Even within Humaniti, the individual branches often identify strongly with others of the same branch, including the dominant Solomani, Vilani, and Sylean groups. The result is that no single race has a majority. No matter what group a noble emerges from, there are always more nobles who aren't part of that group than are. Everyone is a minority.

So that 50% figure is actually referring to Nobility specifically. When I last did a census of the TravellerMap data, the Imperium's (Mainworld) population was about 95.12% human — about 7% of the total population being Minor Human Races and the remainder of those 95.12% being "Imperial Stock" humans. This doc is a bit outdated now, but in general the data should still be in the right ballpark: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cOJZKVda-mfYOePYbwD1Io6rmbR42ZDZNm5jneQK2GI/edit?usp=sharing

 

[MasterGwydion]

Is there such a thing as an "educated wild ass guess"? My estimate was grounded a bit in some T5 statements about the non-human population of the Imperium. I can't remember if the figure came from T5 itself, an Imperiallines issues, or Agent of the Imperium, but somewhere there's a statement that something like 50% of the Imperial population is non-human.

Traveller assumes that "life is everywhere," and T5 further assumes that sophontic life is far more common than anything we have ever seen depicted in canon. Like, multiple worlds per subsector harboring Native Intelligent Life.

The Imperium seems open to granting citizenship to any culture able to pledge fealty to the Emperor, no matter how weird. The Aslan are probably much less open: while they will accept any people who assimilate into their culture, they are also fierce cultural chauvinists. (Remember, the whole Cultural Purge was because they felt many biological Aslan weren't Aslan enough!)

The lower limit for the non-Aslan population is something more than 0%, as a handful of these non-Aslan races have been mentioned in canon. I think I went with 5%, which was approximately the number currently shown in Traveller Map data.

To get to 25% I assumed that (1) Many sophont species are not currently reflected in Traveller Map data, (2) these species were initially distributed relatively evenly across Charted Space, (3) those species who could/would not assimilate were either interdicted, exterminated, or driven out, resulting in (4) the Hierate having a much lower percentage of non-Aslan species than the Imperium.

So if the lower limit for non-Aslan was 5% and the upper limit was 50%, with no good reason to go higher or lower I think I just arbitrarily landed on 25% as somewhere in the middle.

Thank you for the reply! I appreciate the explanation.

 

[Vormaerin]

I think there is a vast underreporting of minority populations in the Travellermap extended UPPs compared to the suggestions in Traveller fiction and articles like Mark's.

 

[Endie]

I think there is a vast underreporting of minority populations in the Travellermap extended UPPs compared to the suggestions in Traveller fiction and articles like Mark's.

This is incontrovertible. For instance, on Hrahraiu we know that at least one in eight of the population are human, yet there is no hint of this in the Remarks section for the system (where it should be noted with, at the very least, "Huma1".

Tryaoke, nearby, has 8 billion humans and so makes up roughly 4% percent of the Hierate's Trojan Reach population by itself, but is noted as "AsSc" without the minimum value of "Huma9" it should have if the Wiki was in any way reliable. Those are just two obvious examples that spring to mind immediately.

The wiki is absolutely not a viable source for demographics and should be ignored as anything but an absolute floor value.

 

[MasterGwydion]

This is incontrovertible. For instance, on Hrahraiu we know that at least one in eight of the population are human, yet there is no hint of this in the Remarks section for the system (where it should be noted with, at the very least, "Huma1".

Tryaoke, nearby, has 8 billion humans and so makes up roughly 4% percent of the Hierate's Trojan Reach population by itself, but is noted as "AsSc" without the minimum value of "Huma9" it should have if the Wiki was in any way reliable. Those are just two obvious examples that spring to mind immediately.

The wiki is absolutely not a viable source for demographics and should be ignored as anything but an absolute floor value.

I thought these numbers were never wrong and we had to just find reasons to make it correct. I had this same problem with tons of other things on here. That is the response I got. Repeatedly.

The Trojan Reach Sectorbook didn't list it either so it is hard to blame Travellermap.


It is in the fluff text, but not in any other area. Just like Cordan and just like TechWorld.

 

[Garnfellow]

I do believe I know what you are referring to; you're thinking to the excellent article by MWM himself 'Nobility in the Third Imperium (Part 1)', which went up on Imperiallines 7. In it, he states the following:

I was definitely thinking about that passage, though I think there's something even more recent and more specific to the general Imperial population. In any case, I assumed that nonhuman species were likely over-represented in the Imperial nobility, so that 50% was a reasonable upper bound for the total percentage of nonhumans in the Imperium.

As an aside, probably 90% of the alien populations currently in the Traveller Map data are there only because there were specific references to those populations in canonical materials. That doesn't mean there couldn't be loads of missing species that just haven't been detailed yet, and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and all that.

Heck, how many years was it before Marc revealed that Regina -- REGINA! -- had its very own native intelligent species?

 

[Garnfellow]

There are several things the Mongoose portrayal of Aslan changes from previous canon...

1. size
2. ihatei are reavers, raiders, vikings...

Aslan rarely conquer, they usually squat or purchase

rather then bloodthirsty invaders they are more akin to irish travellers...

most Aslan warfare is actually inter clan conflict within the heirate

Size has not actually been changed -- all written Mongoose sources still hold that Aslan average 2 metres in height. As for any artwork that appears to show otherwise, they are actually showing totally normal Aslan beside very teeny minor human races.

More seriously, Clans of the Aslan has a world that depicts a more typical ihatei lifestyle -- miserable, hungry wretches squatting on the margins of established settlements. The Aslan Hierate should bring back the fuller picture of Aslan "invasions" as shown in MegaTraveller.

And fully agree that most warfare is clan-on-clan.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Traveller assumes that "life is everywhere,"

As an aside: I am absolutely convinced that, back in the day - probably MT era - I saw something stating that outside the Grand Old Map sapient life was much less common, but I have never found it again. I suspect it may have been a Digest Group pub but am not at all certain. (It may have been the same source that stated nobody except the Eight Well-Known Clades had ever discovered Jump. Anywhere.)

 

[Garnfellow]

As an aside: I am absolutely convinced that, back in the day - probably MT era - I saw something stating that outside the Grand Old Map sapient life was much less common, but I have never found it again. I suspect it may have been a Digest Group pub but am not at all certain. (It may have been the same source that stated nobody except the Eight Well-Known Clades had ever discovered Jump. Anywhere.)

It's probably from the MT Referee's Manual, page 7:

STARFARERS

Humanity calls its region of the galaxy by a variety of names, all of which amount to the same idea: Charted Space. This is an area roughly 500 parsecs across within which are concentrated more than a thousand starfaring races on, or regularly visiting, more than 80,000 worlds. Expeditions toward the galactic core have explored (and settled parts of) a narrow corridor some 30 parsecs wide and more than 7,000 parsecs long. Expeditions toward the galactic rim have reached nearly 3,000 parsecs toward intergalactic space. Lateral expeditions have reached kiloparsecs in each direction.

The results have always been the same:

First, there is life everywhere. Worlds naturally spawn their own life forms, and many produce intelligent species.

Second, nowhere beyond Charted Space has intelligence produced the jump drive that makes interstellar travel possible. Worlds are full of life; space is empty.

 

[CordwainerFish]

It's probably from the MT Referee's Manual, page 7

That's it! Thanks, now I have one less thing driving me slowly mad.

(I really need to fully read MT. There's lots in it that I would never bring to a table (I'm looking at you, Dulinor), but the writing is first class.)

 

[MTree]

I ran The Pirates of Drinax campaign 4 or 5 years ago. Great story with a TON of stuff to do. My party actually played very little as actual "pirates". They wound up acting more as Privateers and Merchants fostering trade deals between various worlds in the sector. By the end of the game (which lasted about 10 years game time) they had reunited the entire old kingdom and even made an alliance with one of the Aslan clans.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I ran The Pirates of Drinax campaign 4 or 5 years ago. Great story with a TON of stuff to do. My party actually played very little as actual "pirates". They wound up acting more as Privateers and Merchants fostering trade deals between various worlds in the sector. By the end of the game (which lasted about 10 years game time) they had reunited the entire old kingdom and even made an alliance with one of the Aslan clans.

It is one of My favorite campaigns of all time.

 

[Vormaerin]

That said, T5 certainly isn't entirely on board with that idea that charted space is uniquely populous. It asserts that intelligent life is widespread, just that it rarely develops interstellar travel for one reason or another. There's over a hundred human societies scattered amongst the stars besides the Imperium, the Consulate, and Confederation.

The Ancients being from Charted Space seems to have definitely messed with the odds of interstellar travel or there is something uniquely pre-disposed to inventing Jump drive about Terran derived speces (Since 4 of them developed Jump Drive).

 

[Sigtrygg]

Then there are the cultures that spread via STL - the Kursae for one, the Vilani initially, even the Terrans, and there has always been that first starfarers boxed vignette in MT:

"THE FIRST STARFARERS
We place the age of the universe at more than fifteen billion years.
The oldest stars in Charted Space are dim red dwarf some ten billion years old.
Intelligent life first appeared in Charted Space more than two billion years ago.
Intelligent life first began sublight travel between the stars more than a billion years ago. Short-lived beings found sublight travel tedious and frustrating and contented themselves with confinement to a few star systems. Longer lived races ranged far and wide using generation ships, cold sleep, and even electronic personality transfers.
The first jump drive was an unrealized dream until only 300,000 years ago. By a fluke of evolution, a single supergenius was born to the pastoral Droyne, and under his leadership this ancient race travelled extensively throughout a region nearly 1000 parsecs across. The race worked wonders throughout Charted Space and then destroyed themselves in a wide-ranging war that shattered worlds and destroyed civilizations
Today, the Droyne live in independent communities on many separate worlds. They avoid entanglements and political disputes; they live peacefully with their neighbors; and their hand-built jump drives are the best that can be found anywhere."

In CT the m-drive could get you to 0.9c (Imperium/Dark nebula)

 

[Hootenheimer]

I ran The Pirates of Drinax campaign 4 or 5 years ago. Great story with a TON of stuff to do. My party actually played very little as actual "pirates". They wound up acting more as Privateers and Merchants fostering trade deals between various worlds in the sector. By the end of the game (which lasted about 10 years game time) they had reunited the entire old kingdom and even made an alliance with one of the Aslan clans.

I have the same experience, I started a weekly Pirates of Drinax game in April of 2024 that is ongoing and is probably slated to end next year (but who can say) and there's only been two overt acts of piracy by the party.

From what I've heard from other GMs, I think this might be more the norm than not, but I've been told "Small Business Associations and Non-Governmental Organizations Being Used As An Excuse For Regime Change of Drinax" just doesn't have the same ring to it as "Pirates" does.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I have the same experience, I started a weekly Pirates of Drinax game in April of 2024 that is ongoing and is probably slated to end next year (but who can say) and there's only been two overt acts of piracy by the party.

From what I've heard from other GMs, I think this might be more the norm than not, but I've been told "Small Business Associations and Non-Governmental Organizations Being Used As An Excuse For Regime Change of Drinax" just doesn't have the same ring to it as "Pirates" does.

I think the problem has roots in the vastly different scales of cash involved between 'cost of living' and 'standard equipment' and 'ships'. The prices in High Guard are too expensive by at least a factor of ten, maybe a factor of one hundred. That would have knock-on effects down the line of course; lowering freight and passage prices -- but it also goes a long way towards making possible a high-trade universe that Traveller seems to want to portray.

If ships are far less expensive, then merchants can withstand the occasional loss; and a twelve person pirate crew would not be settling down to live the high life after just (legally!) selling their own ship, or taking a single merchant ship. And cheaper ships also means that lower bounties are also reasonable.

Sorry, I don't actually have a solution for you.

 

[Condottiere]

Starships are remarkably cheap.

If, you happen to be a large organization.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think the problem has roots in the vastly different scales of cash involved between 'cost of living' and 'standard equipment' and 'ships'. The prices in High Guard are too expensive by at least a factor of ten, maybe a factor of one hundred. That would have knock-on effects down the line of course; lowering freight and passage prices -- but it also goes a long way towards making possible a high-trade universe that Traveller seems to want to portray.

If ships are far less expensive, then merchants can withstand the occasional loss; and a twelve person pirate crew would not be settling down to live the high life after just (legally!) selling their own ship, or taking a single merchant ship. And cheaper ships also means that lower bounties are also reasonable.

Sorry, I don't actually have a solution for you.

This is what Copilot says when asked what the average price of a small cargo ship on Earth currently costs. The prices seem in line.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Also this.

Seems to me not that the ships are too cheap, but the average cost per ton is too cheap. This "average" cargo is worth 10x the cost of the ship per TEU.

 

[J. L. Brown]

This is what Copilot says when asked what the average price of a small cargo ship on Earth currently costs. The prices seem in line.

View attachment 6586

So a 'Small Bulk Cargo' ship is usually about US $1 million to US $5 million; but a Free/Far Trader is about 50MCr -- the ship prices in HGU are too high by 10x or 50x. Add to that the exchange rate between US $ and the CrImp (US $5 = 1 Cr), and the prices are 50x to 250x too high. Or use TL differences in value of currency between TL-8 & TL-12, and end up in the same (or worse) place.

Not sure where you are going with 'Average Value of Cargo' -- that seems to be completely unrelated to the price to haul a dTon of Freight. What did I miss?