Pioneer Kickstarter Preview

[MasterGwydion]

Just seems like a vastly different game when described like that.

Yeah. I agree.

Looking at the Rescue from LEO scenario. There would be literally no need for the PCs at all. In fact, you'd be better off making the people in the FlyUp! the PCs. Roleplay their mental state over the comms and with each other, roll for them doing the very limited EVA, and then play out the press conference at the end.

Writing adventures is hard. Writing adventures that players can't poke a million holes in the plot is even harder. Writing fun adventures without railroading is even harder. It is why I am not an RPG adventure writer. I am not smart enough for that.

 

[lategamer]

Writing adventures is hard. Writing adventures that players can't poke a million holes in the plot is even harder. Writing fun adventures without railroading is even harder. It is why I am not an RPG adventure writer. I am not smart enough for that.

I guess this is why we have to set some constants in the world. Just as Jump Drive is a constant in Traveller, the desire for human intervention is likely to be a constant in Pioneer. It's not enough to just see it through a lens. Remote operations also becomes much more tricky when dealing with delays of seconds or even minutes.

But...that's not really the story I want to tell.

I think The Martian had a nice mix of programmed navigation and also the need for a pilot. That's what I'm aiming for.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I guess this is why we have to set some constants in the world. Just as Jump Drive is a constant in Traveller, the desire for human intervention is likely to be a constant in Pioneer. It's not enough to just see it through a lens. Remote operations also becomes much more tricky when dealing with delays of seconds or even minutes.

You could have humans in the ship to pilot the drones for all of the EVA-type stuff. It is 30 years in the future. Go full VR immersion. Simply state that humans have to be on the ship to cut down comm lag with the drones. Make that one of your constants.

But...that's not really the story I want to tell.

Agreed. You'd have to be creative on the approach to running a game like that to make it fun. Such as by full-immersion VR and such.

I think The Martian had a nice mix of programmed navigation and also the need for a pilot. That's what I'm aiming for.

I did enjoy that movie immensely!

 

[lategamer]

I did enjoy that movie immensely!

Yeah, nice balance.

The pilot wasn't there to Fly The Ship but to make the important decisions regarding the MAVs. And I don't think he could have even done the slingshot and return to Mars. You need someone with bigger eyeballs than that.

But close in - where the human drama is - involve the humans. Maybe not for docking the WITNESS to the FLYUP!, but certainly for enacting repairs and getting the people aboard. Rely too much on automation and the scenario lasts 20 minutes.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah, nice balance.

The pilot wasn't there to Fly The Ship but to make the important decisions regarding the MAVs. And I don't think he could have even done the slingshot and return to Mars. You need someone with bigger eyeballs than that.

Seems like the pilot in that movie was more Mission Commander and less Pilot. Otherwise, why have your Pilot be in command when on the ground?

But close in - where the human drama is - involve the humans. Maybe not for docking the WITNESS to the FLYUP!, but certainly for enacting repairs and getting the people aboard. Rely too much on automation and the scenario lasts 20 minutes.

Human (sophont) drama is the key to good roleplaying. Agreed.

 

[shirgall]

Just seems like a vastly different game when described like that.

Might be easier to think of it as whenever you deviate from well-prepared plans things break and unexpected constraints emerge you will need the most adaptable, skilled, and thoughtful entity to save time, money, lives, or the perfect photo.

 

[Sigtrygg]

People on the spot can make a difference - Armstrong's manual piloting of the lander, Aldrin fixing a broken switch with a pen - but there are times when it takes all the resources groundside to solve a problem - who saved Apollo 13?

 

[Michael S]

Exactly, or send a remotely-operated drone to repair it.

You forgot PC vs. environment.

It has been a long time, but in Murder on the Orient Express, you didn't need someone who knew how to run the train. You were merely a passenger or service staff. So, no pilots in that either. It would basically be the exact same scenario if done in deep water instead of in space. Or like in real life, some billionaire gets in trouble in a submersible and the PCs are the rescue mission. It is basically the exact same mission as the example adventure for Pioneer. This one does require a pilot currently, but in 30 years, likely that will be automated as well. In 30 years, I doubt we will have humanoid drones to send as rescue personnel, so humans would be required for that part.

So, yes, space gives you a new setting, but most adventures will not be significantly different just by being moved into space. At least not significantly different than moving it from land to underwater as opposed to in space. Both are environments are deadly to humans outside of the sealed environment. Both scenarios can kill humans fairly easily if they do something stupid. Both are good settings for adventures, but they are also basically the same adventure.

Yeah this is why i didn't mention PC vs Environment - I don't think you fight an environment of Vacuum (nothing) at 4 degress Kelvin, you bundle up in your own personal suit and hope the Cosmic ray gun is not aimed at you from a light years away. Once you're in a sheilded can or inflated Bota bottle filled with recycled air, you can pick a fight with the real monsters that stole your macguffin.

 

[MasterGwydion]

But close in - where the human drama is - involve the humans. Maybe not for docking the WITNESS to the FLYUP!, but certainly for enacting repairs and getting the people aboard. Rely too much on automation and the scenario lasts 20 minutes.

I had a party once that spent the night in an inn and drank in the downstairs bar. It took two whole game sessions of 8 hours each to finish due to roleplay with very few dice ever being used. So, it would only take 20 minutes if your players don't know how to roleplay people and who think that roleplay is just rolling dice. It's not. It is character interactions with other characters, with NPCs, with the environment, etc.

Any adventure if stripped down to just some die rolls can be finished very quickly and with zero roleplaying. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but it can be done. It just would be rollplaying and not roleplaying. Basically, a wargame instead of an RPG.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah this is why i didn't mention PC vs Environment - I don't think you fight an environment of Vacuum (nothing) at 4 degress Kelvin, you bundle up in your own personal suit and hope the Cosmic ray gun is not aimed at you from a light years away. Once you're in a sheilded can or inflated Bota bottle filled with recycled air, you can pick a fight with the real monsters that stole your macguffin.

That is because you look at everything as fighting. I look at everything as interaction. RPGs are not about fighting, they are about interacting, of which fighting is a subset of that.

Think about the story of the cannibal survivors of that plane crash in the mountains. Environment played a very large role in everything they did. That is PCs vs environment.

Edit - Found it.

Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lategamer]

Seems like the pilot in that movie was more Mission Commander and less Pilot. Otherwise, why have your Pilot be in command when on the ground?

Yeah. The military pilot was there just for the MAV stuff and the stuff they didn’t want MC to handle. I think it was well balanced.

Notably no AGI.

Might be easier to think of it as whenever you deviate from well-prepared plans things break and unexpected constraints emerge you will need the most adaptable, skilled, and thoughtful entity to save time, money, lives, or the perfect photo.

So, that would be the AGI with the Drone.

People on the spot can make a difference - Armstrong's manual piloting of the lander, Aldrin fixing a broken switch with a pen - but there are times when it takes all the resources groundside to solve a problem - who saved Apollo 13?

In the 1960s/70s, sure.

Projecting forward? Not sure fixing stuff will be practical unless by design. When the circuit board is so packed you can’t even see the lines.

And maybe an AGI might be better. Just not the story I want to tell.

 

[Yatima]

Why do we have Pilots in Traveller? Heck, why is everything not just done by computer?

This is the right question. An RPG is a series of conundrums and calamities for the players to have fun resolving and occasionally being killed by. So a way to look at pioneer is:

- Against a backdrop of plausible, near future spaceflight, which serves almost entirely as flavour or setting fluff.
- Characters will enjoy solving problems using skill and imagination.
- Play will focus on the unusual, the unlikely, the downright dangerous and the unexpected not the happy-path routine. Apollo 13 not Apollo 8.
- So that they can have fun, playing make-believe.

A totally different exercise is to engage students or professionals in a realistic (and tedious) simulation of spaceflight as it will be in 30 years time.
We're conflating those two rather different projects into one thing in parts of the conversation – what's realistic vs what's more fun.

J

 

[Yatima]

People on the spot can make a difference - Armstrong's manual piloting of the lander, Aldrin fixing a broken switch with a pen - but there are times when it takes all the resources groundside to solve a problem - who saved Apollo 13?

Why would it be either/or? Apollo 13 relied heavily on the ground crew but also managed TEI by the seat of their pants because no guidance computer made a manual burn necessary.

 

[Yatima]

That is because you look at everything as fighting. I look at everything as interaction. RPGs are not about fighting, they are about interacting, of which fighting is a subset of that.

Rather than fighting or interaction, I'd say 'conflict'. Conflict is what characters need to struggle against, what makes the story interesting. Conflict can be interpersonal, violent, non-violent, a game of shadows and dirty tricks, a struggle against a hostile environment to survive.
J