treeplanter
Mongoose
Hello, in the book it is stated that Pike can attack at 20 feets. What do you guy think? It seem high to me. I tough 10 or maybe 15 feet would be the correct number, 20 ft might more be the total lenght of the pike...
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Pike
- Thread starter treeplanter
- Start date
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
Well, personally I agree that 20' appears to be too much.
However, the idea behind it may be having effective pike formations with up to three Acies (don't remember the English word so latin will have to do) that can _all_ get AoOs against a charging enemy.
So in fact fighting like the Macedonian Phalanx.
However, the idea behind it may be having effective pike formations with up to three Acies (don't remember the English word so latin will have to do) that can _all_ get AoOs against a charging enemy.
So in fact fighting like the Macedonian Phalanx.
treeplanter
Mongoose
Hum according to wikipedia a Sarissa from the macedonian phalanx was about 6 meter long (18 feat)
but I guess the hands were just before the middle (at leas 3 or 4 feat) so I think 3 sqares (15 ft) would be more appropriate. In the end one more square than Cavalry lance.
but I guess the hands were just before the middle (at leas 3 or 4 feat) so I think 3 sqares (15 ft) would be more appropriate. In the end one more square than Cavalry lance.
I'm not certain as to the exact translation of 'Acies' but you seem to be referring to the english 'rank' ( a row of men in a formation, side to side, counting backwards/deeper into the formation. Front to back rows, counting from side to side, are referred to as 'Files', FYI. ).
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
Right you are, "rank" was the word I was looking for, just couldn't recall it for the life of me. ^^
Jotenbjorn
Mongoose
Well, a 6 inch knife can attack someone 5 feet away, so why can't a 15' spear attack someon 20' away.
Get a 15' long pike and see for yourself...
Physics is against you really. A certain amount of weight has to be behind the grip point. Essentially the 18' pike was gripped about 3' from its end and extending ones arms full length, or indeed very much at all, whilst wielding such a cumberous weapon is simply not practical. And that goes doubly if it's being used in formation (the only sane use of pike).
Physics is against you really. A certain amount of weight has to be behind the grip point. Essentially the 18' pike was gripped about 3' from its end and extending ones arms full length, or indeed very much at all, whilst wielding such a cumberous weapon is simply not practical. And that goes doubly if it's being used in formation (the only sane use of pike).
treeplanter
Mongoose
A knive don't attack 5ft away it attack the next square wich is 0 feet away. A lance attack 5 feat away so 2 square from your character and so on
For clarity:
If most weapons (broadsword, knife, hand axe, etc) have a 5' reach (ie one square) then I think a 8' spear should probably have a 10' reach, wielded either one or two handed (two squares) and a 12' spear a 10' reach if wielded one handed but perhaps a 15' reach (three squares) if wielded two handed. A 15' pike should certainly reach 3 squares, or 15'. An 18' pike would be on the cusp of having a 4 square (20') reach given that in game terms a 10' reach is really measured in squares not the same as in life.
Or in other words:
most weapons threaten the adjacent squares
a one handed 12' spear, and probably an 8' spear, should threaten the second 'band' of squares from the character.
a 15' pike and maybe a 12' spear wielded two handed should threaten the third 'band'
an 18' pike should threaten either the third or fourth 'band' of squares depending on how the GM feels. I'd plump for the 4th myself as it would allow differentiation between the 'short' and 'long' pikes.
If most weapons (broadsword, knife, hand axe, etc) have a 5' reach (ie one square) then I think a 8' spear should probably have a 10' reach, wielded either one or two handed (two squares) and a 12' spear a 10' reach if wielded one handed but perhaps a 15' reach (three squares) if wielded two handed. A 15' pike should certainly reach 3 squares, or 15'. An 18' pike would be on the cusp of having a 4 square (20') reach given that in game terms a 10' reach is really measured in squares not the same as in life.
Or in other words:
most weapons threaten the adjacent squares
a one handed 12' spear, and probably an 8' spear, should threaten the second 'band' of squares from the character.
a 15' pike and maybe a 12' spear wielded two handed should threaten the third 'band'
an 18' pike should threaten either the third or fourth 'band' of squares depending on how the GM feels. I'd plump for the 4th myself as it would allow differentiation between the 'short' and 'long' pikes.
You know the rules are more or less abstract. Having weapons codified in bands of reach keeps things simple. I have seen systems (both wargaming and RPGs) that use individual weapon reach in feet and inches, and it gets really messy - more over, the ones that account for individual arm reach! But I see the rules should be a balance between abstract and realism, and more over - be open to houseruling. If you want to keep to the abstract rule (medium-size reach: 5', 10' for reach weapons), then keep doing so. If you want a more tactical approach to reach, then adjust things until you are content. I personally like giving pikes and other pole-arms better reach then 10', as that seems a little to short to me. 15 to 20 feet sounds like a good range.
A thing to consider with pike weapons, is that its best used in tight formation, at least 2 ranks deep (3 or more being ideal), and braced for a calvary-charge - its like a wall of spikes! Outside of using them to defend a besieged wall, pikes - and other pole-arm for that matter - are terrible personal weapons. They are too unwieldy to use effectively like a spear, are useless once parried, and a bitch to use in close-quarters (unless it breaks, then you have an improvised quarterstaff).
A thing to consider with pike weapons, is that its best used in tight formation, at least 2 ranks deep (3 or more being ideal), and braced for a calvary-charge - its like a wall of spikes! Outside of using them to defend a besieged wall, pikes - and other pole-arm for that matter - are terrible personal weapons. They are too unwieldy to use effectively like a spear, are useless once parried, and a bitch to use in close-quarters (unless it breaks, then you have an improvised quarterstaff).
Jotenbjorn
Mongoose
treeplanter said:A knive don't attack 5ft away it attack the next square wich is 0 feet away. A lance attack 5 feat away so 2 square from your character and so on
As per the rules it is attacking 5 feet away. If an item has 20' reach then the target of the attack can be as close as 15'. Just as a weapon with a 5' reach can be right next to you.
Outside of formation combat, the difference between a 15 foot reach and a 20 foot reach aren't really noticable. It is the longest melee reach weapon in the game, either way, so it has tactical uses.
Game mechanically, the pike is interesting in that no other weapon can even 5 foot step to make a full attack against it.
Whether or not it makes sense is another issue, but it certainly unique.
Game mechanically, the pike is interesting in that no other weapon can even 5 foot step to make a full attack against it.
Whether or not it makes sense is another issue, but it certainly unique.
treeplanter
Mongoose
So how it would work game mechanicly? You're a gunderman with your pike. So basicly anyone who approach you will suffer an AOO then you have to drop your pike and draw a close weapon doesnt sound bad to me.
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
Well, historically, fighters didn't have 40 hit points or whatever, so the when they'd charge a pike formation they'd take one "AoO" from each rank, but were unlikely to keep fighting after being hit the first time.
The historical point is purely incidental, I assure you. I'm far more concerned with the tactic just being gamey. I mean does one encounter sword and sorcery heroes carrying pikes about for the purpose of getting a 'free attack', then dropping them and drawing a sword? I suspect not.
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
Oh, no, certainly not.
treeplanter
Mongoose
Yeah I agree.
The thing is I've a Gunderman Soldier in my group and he took the pike and shield fighting feat, wich is in my opinion make sense. I don't want his feat to be totally worthless and since in tonight game they will be in Gundarland/Border kingdom I think it would be fine for him to carry a pike.
The options I had is:
1. Extend the gunderman +1/+1 bonus to Pike to any spear when he fight with a Shield and a spear
2. Allow him to sometime use a pike when I feel it is appropriate
do you have other suggestion?
The thing is I've a Gunderman Soldier in my group and he took the pike and shield fighting feat, wich is in my opinion make sense. I don't want his feat to be totally worthless and since in tonight game they will be in Gundarland/Border kingdom I think it would be fine for him to carry a pike.
The options I had is:
1. Extend the gunderman +1/+1 bonus to Pike to any spear when he fight with a Shield and a spear
2. Allow him to sometime use a pike when I feel it is appropriate
do you have other suggestion?
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
I don't know if you have other spear-related houserules in your game, so maybe you could allow him to wield any spear one-handed. And for the regular spear, maybe allow him to attack both adjacent squares and 10' reach.
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