captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
At the very least, can you do in another thread ? When this explodes, I'd really rather not lose this one to deletion.
Passages x distance: some thoughts on cost.
- Thread starter captainjack23
- Start date
At the very least, can you do in another thread ? When this explodes, I'd really rather not lose this one to deletion.
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
"Are you sure you're here to discuss Traveller, or are you just here to spout wacky anti-capitalist eco-maniac propaganda? Because this really is the wrong board for that sort of thing."
What is wacky about planets that have an ecology in science fiction and planets that have an economy in science fiction? What have i said that is anti capitalist? A maniac for being ecologically aware?
Are you teaching me morality perhaps? If so what morality are you teaching me? (Wonder what Gene Rodenberry would have said!)
I dont know why the factors of economy and ecology should prompt such hostility. Maybe i'm wrong about that but the replies appear a bit strange to me. Did someone taint the atmosphere?
:?
What is wacky about planets that have an ecology in science fiction and planets that have an economy in science fiction? What have i said that is anti capitalist? A maniac for being ecologically aware?
Are you teaching me morality perhaps? If so what morality are you teaching me? (Wonder what Gene Rodenberry would have said!)
I dont know why the factors of economy and ecology should prompt such hostility. Maybe i'm wrong about that but the replies appear a bit strange to me. Did someone taint the atmosphere?
:?
Oh yes, of course it's all my fault, even though I'm not the one who started by suddenly posting some random, not particularly relevant, totally out of place lecture/screed with no context on "eco credits" and capitalism. Sorry, but that didn't look like a reply to anything here, it looked like random political spam to me.
But then when I say "hey, keep that this off this thread" I get blamed for "derailing" it and starting "senseless arguments" :roll: . Well, if that's the way you see it, I hope you guys can keep it on topic yourselves. I'm outta here.
But then when I say "hey, keep that this off this thread" I get blamed for "derailing" it and starting "senseless arguments" :roll: . Well, if that's the way you see it, I hope you guys can keep it on topic yourselves. I'm outta here.
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
Senseless? Concorde a high speed expensive passenger carrier went bust due to expense.... maintainence building costs etc. Larger capacity slower vehicles hold the Lions share of the capital intensive passenger market. The prime factor which is not being addressed in this thread is that aviation fuel is subsidised. All governments do it even though it is contrary to the doctrine of free market.
My suggestion is this.... and it is a fine one even if i say so myself 8)
Passenger tickets should be subsidised by planetary governments. The Ship/Company/Carrier receives more than the passenger pays.
Planets without an economy to support such subsidy would receive aid from the Empire to maintain the territorial integrity/influence of the Empire. Not forgetting that trade is also a form of communication.
Smaller ships have a legitimate though fragile presence and can be placed in such a position that the crew are forced to do something chancey for the sake of... (ADVENTURE).
Just like the here and now reality.
My suggestion is this.... and it is a fine one even if i say so myself 8)
Passenger tickets should be subsidised by planetary governments. The Ship/Company/Carrier receives more than the passenger pays.
Planets without an economy to support such subsidy would receive aid from the Empire to maintain the territorial integrity/influence of the Empire. Not forgetting that trade is also a form of communication.
Smaller ships have a legitimate though fragile presence and can be placed in such a position that the crew are forced to do something chancey for the sake of... (ADVENTURE).
Just like the here and now reality.
The subsidized merchants are suposed to be filling the gap, for the worlds with low volumes of passenger and / or cargo needs. Useing a double subsidy system would lead to more graft and bribes, makeing things worse in the long run...........
Edit: Worlds that want to increase starship trafic can waive landing fees and offer reduced fuel prices .............
Edit: Worlds that want to increase starship trafic can waive landing fees and offer reduced fuel prices .............
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
"The subsidized merchants are supposed to be filling the gap, for the worlds with low volumes of passenger and / or cargo needs. Useing a double subsidy system would lead to more graft and bribes, making things worse in the long run...........
Edit: Worlds that want to increase starship traffic can waive landing fees and offer reduced fuel prices ............."
I am trying not to think game mechanics to fix but a rational "real" world reason for game mechanics.
The subsidy for a small merchant ship really stimulates the production of uneconomical ships as the game stands. So the subsidy is really for the ship yards to be spread near and far and to stimulate shipyard development.
There is an argument for and against time of journey for costing passage tickets. (Minerals might only need to get there next year. Mass transit among the stars might only need to get there next year also. Corporations,those serial money makers, may even have half their project personnel in deep sleep etc etc while Lord Tophat must get there for her/it/the goal/his chocolate éclaire)
There is an argument for and against jump distance dependent costs. Maintainance, crew cost, fuel over cargo cost effectiveness etc etc... MMMMMmmmmm it is too complicated going down those roads in terms of game mechanics and varying costs for transit and transport.
The costs of fuel are very low in comparison with profits for the large ships. Ports in reality rarely waive docking or fuel fees unless the vessel is a charity mission or an attraction in itself. The port itself is a business.
If the Empire granted 0.5k or 1k per person, regardless of jump distance, for ships to move people this would create more business for the Empire as a whole because the coincidental meeting of business people will initiate more business and thus more production. It also supports Highport costs for passenger transit by creating more passenger transit.
(Business is a form of communication. Handing over currency is a fractally compressed ritual of all the negotiations that are present still in the huge business deals between large organisations or two tribes or any currency-less agreed transfer of resources. Barter)
An empire has to expand or the bubble bursts.
(All empires fall eventually.)
There.... a reason for so many ship yards for repairs to the big ships. A reason to carry passengers. A reason to build small passenger carriers. A reason to subsidize travellers. A reason.
"Useing a double subsidy system would lead to more graft and bribes, making things worse in the long run..........."
Welcome to the real world. The illegal is merely the deligimatised practice replaced by new restrictions. However some bypassed bureaucracy is, although illegal, common sense and practical and profitable to the Empire.
(Your Mall/Local Stupormarkt has costed shoplifting in its profit projections and although employing 100 store detectives with a shoot to kill policy would eradicate nearly all shoplifting employing a few and moving them from store to store is more cost effective.)
Remember all those unprofitable merchant ships will just have their jump drives ripped out and be used for something else if they are not profitable. Even the grand romantic age of piracy will end without a source of fast Cutters to threaten the large cargo ships.
AND there is no such thing as a free market OR free trade !
However business thrives with a good infrastructure that benefits all trade.
So.... how much should passengers be subsidised by for game mechanics?
My head is going fuzzy now so thats my four penneth worth. Do what you like with it or not. I just think the story is more important than the pie chart. Food? yesssssss dinner!
:idea: :idea: :idea:
Edit: Worlds that want to increase starship traffic can waive landing fees and offer reduced fuel prices ............."
I am trying not to think game mechanics to fix but a rational "real" world reason for game mechanics.
The subsidy for a small merchant ship really stimulates the production of uneconomical ships as the game stands. So the subsidy is really for the ship yards to be spread near and far and to stimulate shipyard development.
There is an argument for and against time of journey for costing passage tickets. (Minerals might only need to get there next year. Mass transit among the stars might only need to get there next year also. Corporations,those serial money makers, may even have half their project personnel in deep sleep etc etc while Lord Tophat must get there for her/it/the goal/his chocolate éclaire)
There is an argument for and against jump distance dependent costs. Maintainance, crew cost, fuel over cargo cost effectiveness etc etc... MMMMMmmmmm it is too complicated going down those roads in terms of game mechanics and varying costs for transit and transport.
The costs of fuel are very low in comparison with profits for the large ships. Ports in reality rarely waive docking or fuel fees unless the vessel is a charity mission or an attraction in itself. The port itself is a business.
If the Empire granted 0.5k or 1k per person, regardless of jump distance, for ships to move people this would create more business for the Empire as a whole because the coincidental meeting of business people will initiate more business and thus more production. It also supports Highport costs for passenger transit by creating more passenger transit.
(Business is a form of communication. Handing over currency is a fractally compressed ritual of all the negotiations that are present still in the huge business deals between large organisations or two tribes or any currency-less agreed transfer of resources. Barter)
An empire has to expand or the bubble bursts.
(All empires fall eventually.)
There.... a reason for so many ship yards for repairs to the big ships. A reason to carry passengers. A reason to build small passenger carriers. A reason to subsidize travellers. A reason.
"Useing a double subsidy system would lead to more graft and bribes, making things worse in the long run..........."
Welcome to the real world. The illegal is merely the deligimatised practice replaced by new restrictions. However some bypassed bureaucracy is, although illegal, common sense and practical and profitable to the Empire.
(Your Mall/Local Stupormarkt has costed shoplifting in its profit projections and although employing 100 store detectives with a shoot to kill policy would eradicate nearly all shoplifting employing a few and moving them from store to store is more cost effective.)
Remember all those unprofitable merchant ships will just have their jump drives ripped out and be used for something else if they are not profitable. Even the grand romantic age of piracy will end without a source of fast Cutters to threaten the large cargo ships.
AND there is no such thing as a free market OR free trade !
However business thrives with a good infrastructure that benefits all trade.
So.... how much should passengers be subsidised by for game mechanics?
My head is going fuzzy now so thats my four penneth worth. Do what you like with it or not. I just think the story is more important than the pie chart. Food? yesssssss dinner!
:idea: :idea: :idea:
Fundamentally, the basic costs work out to about KCr8 for J1 for mids given the 5*(StewardLevel +1) rate.
HP works out to about KCr12 for J1 at the rate of HP=1*StewardLevel;
that drops to about KCr9.7 or so for J1 if you instead use 2*StewardLevel HP/Steward.
J2 is about 1.6x as much, and J3 about 2.5x as much; J4 is about 5x, and higher is just frightful. (J6 costs more than 10x J1...)
(Note that, due to differences of fuel rates, MT, TNE, and T4 designs wind up with different relative costs.)
HP works out to about KCr12 for J1 at the rate of HP=1*StewardLevel;
that drops to about KCr9.7 or so for J1 if you instead use 2*StewardLevel HP/Steward.
J2 is about 1.6x as much, and J3 about 2.5x as much; J4 is about 5x, and higher is just frightful. (J6 costs more than 10x J1...)
(Note that, due to differences of fuel rates, MT, TNE, and T4 designs wind up with different relative costs.)
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
When it takes 1week of time and atmosphere to get 3 parsecs or 1 the only difference is fuel costs which is minimal given the profit to be made on huge ships.
Moving people, which is the same as motivating business, is in the Empire's interest of expansion. It has to expand or the capitalist bubble bursts and the Empire goes bust.
Empire would subsidise a passage (any jump length) to promote the spread and developement of shipyards which are necessary for ship building, ship maintainence, business, and Empire. And the spaceport development of course. Ports are businesses too.
(The British emigrating to Australia were offered passage for 10 pounds in the fifties was it? Not sure who paid it but it is an example of subsidy.)
Those spaceshipyards are necessary for maintainence of ALL ships. The small ships are necessary for the small economies (planets) which would become isolated, disillusioned, and disenfranchised without the "small" trade and look to the market that does care for them.
The current Freetrader is a shipyard subsidy and not a passenger subsidy. If the tickets are beyond the reach of small business it means only corporations or large cooperatives/unions of traders are likely to be in interstellar trade.(presumably from large pop. or rich planets)
The difference in jump distance cost would be a fraction of the fuel cost for the portion of cargo that is passengers. You guys are better at doing the numbers than me. Ticket prices are already too high. Passenger subsidy makes sense for the expanding Empire.
In reality most of those small seaships were either stretched or scrapped. A few floating restaurants. In this science fiction universe the jump drives would be stripped out and the ships used for something in system.
So presently the subsidised trader is really a subsidised shipyard while a subsidised passenger would be a subsidised trader.
A good infrastructure benefits the whole spectrum of business, large and small too.
If you want to jump-3 get on a jump-3 ship. If you want to jump-1 get on a jump-1 ship. Thank the Emperor. Gawd Bless 'im!
How much do i pay and how much does the Emperor pay?
Hey! In the name of the Emperor do the numbers!
Moving people, which is the same as motivating business, is in the Empire's interest of expansion. It has to expand or the capitalist bubble bursts and the Empire goes bust.
Empire would subsidise a passage (any jump length) to promote the spread and developement of shipyards which are necessary for ship building, ship maintainence, business, and Empire. And the spaceport development of course. Ports are businesses too.
(The British emigrating to Australia were offered passage for 10 pounds in the fifties was it? Not sure who paid it but it is an example of subsidy.)
Those spaceshipyards are necessary for maintainence of ALL ships. The small ships are necessary for the small economies (planets) which would become isolated, disillusioned, and disenfranchised without the "small" trade and look to the market that does care for them.
The current Freetrader is a shipyard subsidy and not a passenger subsidy. If the tickets are beyond the reach of small business it means only corporations or large cooperatives/unions of traders are likely to be in interstellar trade.(presumably from large pop. or rich planets)
The difference in jump distance cost would be a fraction of the fuel cost for the portion of cargo that is passengers. You guys are better at doing the numbers than me. Ticket prices are already too high. Passenger subsidy makes sense for the expanding Empire.
In reality most of those small seaships were either stretched or scrapped. A few floating restaurants. In this science fiction universe the jump drives would be stripped out and the ships used for something in system.
So presently the subsidised trader is really a subsidised shipyard while a subsidised passenger would be a subsidised trader.
A good infrastructure benefits the whole spectrum of business, large and small too.
If you want to jump-3 get on a jump-3 ship. If you want to jump-1 get on a jump-1 ship. Thank the Emperor. Gawd Bless 'im!
How much do i pay and how much does the Emperor pay?
Hey! In the name of the Emperor do the numbers!
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
My different threads have got tied into a knot. OOPS!
A Jump 3 ship has over 20% less payload space than a Jump 1 ship, due to all that extra fuel you are useing up per jump and it's biger JDrive. Allso it's Jump drive is going to cost you over 2 X as much as the one on a Jump 1 ship. The increased investment cost of a higher jump ship, with it's higher operating cost and is lower payload space must be balanced vs the demand for faster travel times..........
Then you have the problem of what worlds along a jump rout are worth stoping at. Which tends to favor haveing a Jump 2 ship to bypass the worst of them, that a jump 1 ship would be stuck stoping at.
Then you have the problem of what worlds along a jump rout are worth stoping at. Which tends to favor haveing a Jump 2 ship to bypass the worst of them, that a jump 1 ship would be stuck stoping at.
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
So I'm sitting there near the metal hut near the windsock well off the main road with my thumb out waiting for the next kind Scout to give me a lift. Why?
Small ship j-3's are not as common as small j-2's... Why? the cost of a ticket is both too high and too low.
The game requires small jump-2 and 3's otherwise the game needs a new name.
The entire system of planetary empire will become isolated and prone to fracture locally after losing contact with other planets.
To counter the economic crash of small ships the transport system needs passenger subsidy not ship subsidy.
Go ahead and fudge the reason for small ships being there if you like but the empire is just big ship, rich planet, jump-2, Big corporation, and the rest can go to the enemy because its not economically viable. Wonder what the grand strategists would say about that? Putting resources into the infrastructure is what a good manager would do.
So the empire really isn't going to last that long. It must have expanded as it has at the going rate of pillage.
Remember the best science fiction is timeless and is about the here and now.
Small ship j-3's are not as common as small j-2's... Why? the cost of a ticket is both too high and too low.
The game requires small jump-2 and 3's otherwise the game needs a new name.
The entire system of planetary empire will become isolated and prone to fracture locally after losing contact with other planets.
To counter the economic crash of small ships the transport system needs passenger subsidy not ship subsidy.
Go ahead and fudge the reason for small ships being there if you like but the empire is just big ship, rich planet, jump-2, Big corporation, and the rest can go to the enemy because its not economically viable. Wonder what the grand strategists would say about that? Putting resources into the infrastructure is what a good manager would do.
So the empire really isn't going to last that long. It must have expanded as it has at the going rate of pillage.
Remember the best science fiction is timeless and is about the here and now.
Voodoo B Do said:
Truth is, the real problem is that there are two "OTU's"... the early (pre 1984) CT OTU, and the post 1984 HG OTU. Sure, the worlds are the same... and that's really about it.
And as for fixing shipping:
The costs need to support the pricing & vice versa.
J1 is likely the most common travel anyway... why? because it is the cheapest.
J2 and J3 really are not needed to maintain an empire.... they just increase the "3 month" and "6 month" limits....
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
Welcome to the jump-1 empire. Hardly Traveller though is it?
Another factor is language divergence. Business is a form of communication. It requires regular nurturing.
It used to be possible to travel overland from Europe to India. Its a bit too dangerous these days. A bus carries how many people compared to a jumbo? How many jumps for a bus compared to a jumbo?
Economically without the travel/transport infrastructure the economy tends to war which if pursued creates an imbalance with the capital system. Traveller-Empire, given the figures quoted here, should have hundreds upon hundreds of wars burning up the resources of the planets. If nine out of ten businesses go bust so near that many colonies should too. Any planet that is not close to the higher optimum of survival that regular traffic/communication/business affords is highly likely to be a dead one.
War is the poorest form of communication. It degrades the highly complex communication called business.
So is the latest Emporer/Empress a get rich quick asset stripper or is he/she an investor in the future? Currency is most efficient when it is all moving around everywhere and not in one pile where it is useless.
Subsidize passenger transport. It makes more business spread further. Think of it as a tax break for small business for the good of all business.
Registered departures and registered arrivals should be the necessary bureaucracy for validation of credits sent to "bank". Easy fix for your game stats and reason within the narrative. Same credit (whatever the jump number) would be a higher subsidy for smaller ships and shorter jumps. This above all would create many more travellers interacting more often with more planets. Perfect for the Traveller game/interactive narrative.
AND more hexes with just a spaceport are required on the map as i see it. What do you think about that? The "Middle Of Nowhere Coach Inn" in the middle Of nowhere! Truck stop kind of thing.
Hey astro star type people! are there non stellar systems out there?
Another factor is language divergence. Business is a form of communication. It requires regular nurturing.
It used to be possible to travel overland from Europe to India. Its a bit too dangerous these days. A bus carries how many people compared to a jumbo? How many jumps for a bus compared to a jumbo?
Economically without the travel/transport infrastructure the economy tends to war which if pursued creates an imbalance with the capital system. Traveller-Empire, given the figures quoted here, should have hundreds upon hundreds of wars burning up the resources of the planets. If nine out of ten businesses go bust so near that many colonies should too. Any planet that is not close to the higher optimum of survival that regular traffic/communication/business affords is highly likely to be a dead one.
War is the poorest form of communication. It degrades the highly complex communication called business.
So is the latest Emporer/Empress a get rich quick asset stripper or is he/she an investor in the future? Currency is most efficient when it is all moving around everywhere and not in one pile where it is useless.
Subsidize passenger transport. It makes more business spread further. Think of it as a tax break for small business for the good of all business.
Registered departures and registered arrivals should be the necessary bureaucracy for validation of credits sent to "bank". Easy fix for your game stats and reason within the narrative. Same credit (whatever the jump number) would be a higher subsidy for smaller ships and shorter jumps. This above all would create many more travellers interacting more often with more planets. Perfect for the Traveller game/interactive narrative.
AND more hexes with just a spaceport are required on the map as i see it. What do you think about that? The "Middle Of Nowhere Coach Inn" in the middle Of nowhere! Truck stop kind of thing.
Hey astro star type people! are there non stellar systems out there?
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Voodoo B Do said:
What ?
Look, I'm not trying to start an argument, but I'm really having problems figuring out what you are trying to say here.....could you at least sum up what your main point is ?
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
Subsidize passenger transport. It makes more business spread further. Think of it as a tax break for small business for the good of all business.
Voodoo B Do
Mongoose
This above all would create many more travellers interacting more often with more planets. Perfect for the Traveller game/interactive narrative.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Voodoo B Do said:
Okay, so your suggestion is that all travel should (or would be) subsidised, correct ?
It's an interesting idea: that part of the incentive to carry passengers is that one has the cost defrayed (at least partly) by the overall government -I'm assuming, in this case that that would be the imperium. It has some interesting implications:
First, that the imperium is more interested in economic health than general controlof ideology and or dissent and information. (but see point 4)
Second, That the starport authority is a big part of that, and the subsidy is a large part of why locals let an essentially foreign power build an extraterritorial base on their planet.
Third: given the likely taxation structure of the imperium, it must have a way to sell this to the rich members of the imperium, as many ports will esentially not be profitable on the poorer smaller planets. I'm not sure of what this is, but its kind of like the federal aid set up here in the states - the rich states (California, for instance) pay out more than they get in aid in many categories which inturn subsidises the poorer states (Alabama, say) which get more aid than they produce in taxes.
Fourth: This subsidy is a very good way for the imperium to keep most trade running thru its ports, and keep a finger in the economy and transport systems. An unruly planet may have a velvet blockade imposed, when the SPA shuts down, or the subsidy is dropped; an unruly megacorp may well find its ships denied subsidy, and thus becoming unprofitable and non-competitive.
captainjack23 said:
I think he's saying "a losing proposition on pricing is fine, just give a kickback to the crew to make up the loss, and call it a subsidy."
Which is all well and good (and would work), but it won't work in the OTU, and it doesn't work well in any case.
Prices raise to the point of sustainability, or the service/good/whatnot becomes unavailable.
Subsidies do not matter to shippers, in general: either they make enough to meet the bills, or they go bankrupt. from the shipper's point of view, it doesn't matter whether Cr5000 of the Cr10,000 is from a subsidy or from the passenger.
The rules in draft 3.2 tell us J1 shipping can and will make money. J2 shipping will break even if you didn't over finance. J3 is capable of breaking even, but only if paid off already. J4 can't make a profit except by careful speculation.
They also tell us that passengers cost more to carry, pay less per ton than cargo, and are riskier to carry, to boot, since cargoes don't occasionally try to steal your ship. Passengers, per draft 3.2 are bad news.
now, in CT & T20, paid off ships of J2 make money on passengers, and J1 can make money on passengers while paying off, and the net incme per ton of passenger tonnage is more than the income per ton of cargo... provided you can fill the cabins. Finding the right balance was a minigame all itself... and it differs by route, too...
And, in draft 3.2, it's readily solved: 0 Passenger staterooms was the optimal number. Any more than that, and you cost cargo space.
Oh, and Voodoo B Do, yes, the Imperium has ALWAYS been the "J1 Empire".
rust said:AKAramis said:
In which case it would have remained a quite small empire, with most of
its current systems out of reach of commercial shipping, a Jump-1 X-boat
service and a rather immobile Navy ...
Anyhow, I find it somewhat difficult to follow your argumentation. On the
one hand you cite the rules and debate subjects within the framework of
these rules, on the other hand you claim that these rules have to be
changed.
So, in the end you base your arguments on the same rules you want to
see changed, and for me this seems to create some kind of circle I find
hard to comprehend.
Until there are better rules in force, yes, I'll use the 3.2 draft... of course, IM MoTrav TU, there are no sane passenger ships; passenger ships are all government ships, not private.
All that is needed for trade flows is J1. A 2J1 ship is, financially, almost on par with 1J2... and if it's collapsable tankage, it's pretty well good.
Now, under CT Bk2 the financing is worse, but the passengers are better, and for J1 and J2, no subsidy needed for paid off ships, and J1 needs the passengers to turn a profit.
As to the "J1 Empire": In CT, MT, TNE, T4, and T20: the fleets of the navy are all J4-5... with a few at J6... but all the canon merchant designs are J1-J2. In General, speculation needs move no faster. And the last thing an empire wants is the public moving at comm speeds.
consider this... most goods move to market on trucks in the US. At some point, they go by truck. That's the "j1" of American trade. Some make the long haul on truck, others only short...
Train is faster for long range, but costs about the same and is more hassle.
Plane is faster by far, but more expensive and far more hassle.
Similar threads
