Passages x distance: some thoughts on cost.

Well, the number of staterooms will not change and the number of HP or MP will not change, only the mix. On larger ships there might be actual designated MP staterooms with dedicated stewards.

Only on small ships would the MP "Space Available" bump happen.
 
To clarify:
The math is unpleasant, but I'll spell it out for you:

Cr/TdHP: ((Dist * StewardLevel * HP) - 1000(StewardLevel +1))/(4 * (StewardLevel +1))

Aramis, possibly quick question. In your cost formulae, dist = distance, correct ?
 
captainjack23 said:
Yes, the overall ship costs are a big issue to consider. Which suggest that another unresilved issue is this:
Is it better to build a ship at the miimum tech neccessesary for the systems (in this case jump) and allow many many more places to build it (increasing competition, and decreasing tech related overhead increases, and presumably lowering price) or standardize everything at maximum tech (tech 15 parts, take the maximum discout for overtech production wherever possible). Actually, I don't know the answer..there may be a hybrid answer too, just to complicate issues.

Well I dunno how it worked under HG or FF&S, but looking at the tables there it seems that there was definitely a TL dependency on the drives and power plants.

But as RTT points out, MGT mysteriously throws that all away and instead gives us a few really huge tables that to be honest I can't really make heads or tails of.

I would definitely prefer to have the TL make a difference though. Because the fact is, you're going to have type A starports on TL 9 worlds, and you're going to have type A starports on TL 15 worlds as well, and they're all going to churn out ships depending on the technology that's available.

So realistically we should be seeing TL 9 starships with J1 produced by the TL 9 shipyards, as well as TL 15 starships with anything from J1 to J6 produced by the TL15 shipyards (and TL 12 starships with J1 to J3 produced by the TL12 shipyards, etc). And also we're going to see old lower TL ships that were produced decades ago that are still plying the spaceways.

You can bet your bottom dollar though that the older ships are going to be a lot cheaper than the new ones - but whether a new TL 9 J1 ship costs more or less than a TL 15 J1 ship is another matter, and one that can probably only be determined by using HG since the MGT rules (incorrectly, IMO) ignore all that.
 
EDG said:
Well I dunno how it worked under HG or FF&S, but looking at the tables there it seems that there was definitely a TL dependency on the drives and power plants.

But as RTT points out, MGT mysteriously throws that all away and instead gives us a few really huge tables that to be honest I can't really make heads or tails of.

Well, one, the ones in the PDF are incorrect; and two, they are complex.

For the combat section, I thing each drive is read across (drive as rows, disp as columns) to get the designed output; (no big deal there); however, overdriving allows you to look down (or up) from there to find the desired output, then across back to the drive type that that output is the equivalent of, and then look up that drive on the power requirement table to get the final extra power (effective -design) to go extra fast....
Me, I combined the drive potential and requirement tables before it made sense, and even now, I'm not sure. Plus, its probably obsolete by now.
 
That said, RTT is correct that neither of the choices I mentioned for TL/cost issues is applicable, as TL and cost are only related for the minimum TL needed to produce a drive or power unit.

so it pretty much has to be ignored for this analysis. Sorry about muddying things up, even a bit.
 
that said, looking at HG (I am currently attempting to do a HG Free Trader, I'm actually using pencil and paper and calculators and stuff, it's been ages since I've tried this! :) ), it looks like the cost for J drive and Power plant is the same per ton for every TL, though I guess the tonnage required is less as you go higher?
 
EDG said:
that said, looking at HG (I am currently attempting to do a HG Free Trader, I'm actually using pencil and paper and calculators and stuff, it's been ages since I've tried this! :) ), it looks like the cost for J drive and Power plant is the same per ton for every TL, though I guess the tonnage required is less as you go higher?

Yeah, for the power plant, for sure that was the case.
 
captainjack23 said:
To clarify:
The math is unpleasant, but I'll spell it out for you:

Cr/TdHP: ((Dist * StewardLevel * HP) - 1000(StewardLevel +1))/(4 * (StewardLevel +1))

Aramis, possibly quick question. In your cost formulae, dist = distance, correct ?

Yes
 
EDG said:
that said, looking at HG (I am currently attempting to do a HG Free Trader, I'm actually using pencil and paper and calculators and stuff, it's been ages since I've tried this! :) ), it looks like the cost for J drive and Power plant is the same per ton for every TL, though I guess the tonnage required is less as you go higher?

No, it doesn't. Higher TL simply allows you to build longer ranged drives under Bk5.

The traveller "model" as it were, is that drives do not get cheaper as TL improves, nor smaller, but do get able to go farther.

The Bk2 Model is somewhat different: Drives are single piece units, and TL determines the maximum size that can be constructed, but that the costs of building a given drive are TL independent.
 
Yep, a Drive C is the same size, cost etc, whether it is built at TL 9 or TL 15.

High TL ships do not cost significantly (or even insignificantly) less than their TL 9 counterparts.

In fact, if you wanted to build a 200 ton J2 ship, it would be more cost effective (from a construction point of view only) to build it at TL 9 and use a J1 drive and put 20% fuel on it and make 2 jumps. It takes 2 weeks to get there, but you have a smaller Jump Drive and more room for cargo and passengers and a lower cost to build. Sure, you can't make as much money (only 1.3 trips per month vs 2 trips per month for a J2 ship) but there might be a way to scrape a living off of that design.
 
Well for general amusement, here's my HG design for a TL9 Free Trader, I hope I've got it all right. The only difference between this and a TL 15 version is that the power plant is smaller at TL 15, which gives us 4dt more cargo and cuts the cost by 12 MCr.

(and yes, I know you're supposed to use book 2 for ships this size, but HG had the TL dependencies)

Code:
Type A 200dt Free Trader

A-2111111-000000-00000-0            MCr 79            200 tons.
Book 5 design                                             TL=9.
No weaponry installed                                   Crew=4.
Passengers=6, Cargo=93, Fuel=22, EP=1, Agility=1, Hardpoints=2.


                vol           MCr
Hull (Wedge)   (200)          24
Jump-1:           4           16
Manoeuvre-1:      4            6
PPlant-1:         6           18
JFuel:           20            -
PFuel:            2            -
Bridge:          20            1
Computer:         1            2  (Model/1)  
Crew (4):        16            2  (4 staterooms - Pilot, Engineer, Medic, Steward)
Passengers (6):  24            3  (6 staterooms)
Low Berth (20):  10            1  (20 capacity)
Cargo:           93            -
-----------------------------------
                200           73

TL 15 version: 
Reduce PPlant vol to 2dt and price to 6 MCr. 
Cargo increases to 97 dt, total cost drops to 61 MCr.

So really, it seems that according to Book 5, TL doesn't make that much of a difference. Though this version has more cargo room than the Book 2 version, but it costs a hell of a lot more.

I guess all this does is further muddy the water...
 
AKAramis said:
captainjack23 said:
To clarify:
The math is unpleasant, but I'll spell it out for you:

Cr/TdHP: ((Dist * StewardLevel * HP) - 1000(StewardLevel +1))/(4 * (StewardLevel +1))

Aramis, possibly quick question. In your cost formulae, dist = distance, correct ?

Yes

Thanks.

Okay, so simply with regards to the ticket prices, it would seem that nearly anything which increases profit would help....so the goal would seem to be to make passages more profitable than cargo, and by a decent margin, or no-one would put up with all the downsides of passegers: backtalk, stupidity, accidents, general annoyingness, accidental death, increased insurance, increased chance of hijack....all currently not quantifiable as credits, but, especially for the last two, very real.

One of the leverage points for the cost/profit equation Aramis has posted is , as he indicates, Steward expenses. Change in that will probnably be a major factor to making passangers a good bet.

I agree that simply boosting ticket prices isn't necc the best solution as we want travel to be fairly common -both for the game, and for demand. If costs to be profitable are excessive, then demand will go way down, and available staterooms will drop accordingly.
Perhaps peg the max ticket to some value of the cost of living table ?

How much of a years expenses should passages cost ?
What soc level would be an appropriate correspondance with passage type ?

I still think that if travel is more than a luxury item (if prices don't rise high), then there would be some market correction for distance travelled in one jump, as it has to affect price/profit margins. If nothing else, it is a premium service with regards to travel time. Which translates to a changing increase per parsec, even if small - I doubt that range will save passages in terms of profitability without overpricing -but I bet it would be in there; people do take the Concorde , after all. I'm pretty sure its pricier per mile - but also WAY faster to cross the Atlantic.
 
captainjack23 said:
people do take the Concorde , after all. I'm pretty sure its pricier per mile - but also WAY faster to cross the Atlantic.

Possibly not the best example to use, since Concorde was retired a few years ago, largely because it was never all that profitable. Which annoys me intensely, since in the 21st century we really should not be pottering around in crappy subsonic passenger planes (even if they are bigger than they were before) :(
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
people do take the Concorde , after all. I'm pretty sure its pricier per mile - but also WAY faster to cross the Atlantic.

Possibly not the best example to use, since Concorde was retired a few years ago, largely because it was never all that profitable. Which annoys me intensely, since in the 21st century we really should not be pottering around in crappy subsonic passenger planes (even if they are bigger than they were before) :(

Ah. It was a showpiece, then ? Okay, bad example.

As to the rest, I'm with you - in fact, where the hell is my flying car ? :evil:
 
Other than the text on page 2, "Technology Levels." Where Jump 1 is TL 9-10 and each extra TL gives you 1 more jump distance, up to Jump 6 at TL 15.
The only TL limit I can find in the MGT rules for Jump distance is the Computer. Is it powerfull enough to to run your Jump Control program?

Model 5bis, TL 13 = Jump 6
Model 4bis, TL 12 = Jump 5
Model 3bis, TL 11 = Jump 4
Model 2bis, TL 9 = Jump 3
Model 1bis, TL 7 = Jump 2
Model 1 .... TL 7 = Jump 1
 
captainjack23 said:
Okay, so simply with regards to the ticket prices, it would seem that nearly anything which increases profit would help....so the goal would seem to be to make passages more profitable than cargo, and by a decent margin, or no-one would put up with all the downsides of passegers: backtalk, stupidity, accidents, general annoyingness, accidental death, increased insurance, increased chance of hijack....all currently not quantifiable as credits, but, especially for the last two, very real.

One of the leverage points for the cost/profit equation Aramis has posted is , as he indicates, Steward expenses. Change in that will probnably be a major factor to making passangers a good bet.

I agree that simply boosting ticket prices isn't necc the best solution as we want travel to be fairly common -both for the game, and for demand. If costs to be profitable are excessive, then demand will go way down, and available staterooms will drop accordingly.
Perhaps peg the max ticket to some value of the cost of living table ?

How much of a years expenses should passages cost ?
What soc level would be an appropriate correspondance with passage type ?

I still think that if travel is more than a luxury item (if prices don't rise high), then there would be some market correction for distance travelled in one jump, as it has to affect price/profit margins. If nothing else, it is a premium service with regards to travel time. Which translates to a changing increase per parsec, even if small - I doubt that range will save passages in terms of profitability without overpricing -but I bet it would be in there; people do take the Concorde , after all. I'm pretty sure its pricier per mile - but also WAY faster to cross the Atlantic.

The biggest problem is that, under draft 3.2, there is no limit for spec cargoes, and freight is readily available. But passengers are bloody hard to get in numbers, at least as written.

So the expectation is spec cargoes and freight.

Realistically, the price for passage needs to cover the same tonnage lost to the required staterooms AND steward, as well as the costs of LS for the period occupied, plus the salary of the steward.

And, as an aside, working from other directions, yes, the KCr2 per month per person matches up nicely with the costs for vacc suit recharges and stored meals...

So the ways to make passages work:
  1. double (or more) the price.
  2. alter the allowed passengers per steward
  3. cap speculative trade goods low enough to prevent a 400Td 1J1 from filling her holds...

In any case, as it sits, it's THE major disconnect.

Also, use J1 as a base, J2 as about 1.5x, J3 at about 2.5x, J4 at about 4.5x, and J5 at about 25x...
 
AKAramis said:
Which is why I showed both ends for the 200 and 400 tonners.

J1 makes a profit on 80% financing
J2 on about 60%
J3 on about 20%

I admit that I didn't study the starship rules that closely (since some basic components will probably change before the final product is finished), but shouldn't 20% financing (based on muster out shares) mean the the ship makes full payments but only for 20% as long as the full loan - IE 80% of the monthly payments were already made and the ship is now old.

It sounds like a lot of players will be going broke or playing 'accountants in space' with cargo speculation to pay the bills. Too bad.
 
atpollard said:
AKAramis said:
Which is why I showed both ends for the 200 and 400 tonners.

J1 makes a profit on 80% financing
J2 on about 60%
J3 on about 20%

I admit that I didn't study the starship rules that closely (since some basic components will probably change before the final product is finished), but shouldn't 20% financing (based on muster out shares) mean the the ship makes full payments but only for 20% as long as the full loan - IE 80% of the monthly payments were already made and the ship is now old.

It sounds like a lot of players will be going broke or playing 'accountants in space' with cargo speculation to pay the bills. Too bad.

Not in MoTrav. It means you make Cr5000 per month per share owned by the bank for 40 years. If you want less than 40 years owed, you run risks of having a broken ship...

Since each share is MCr1.... it is apparent but not explicit that one should be able to buy out the bank a share at a time, as well...
 
So, what really needs fixing here? We've now got another week to look at this, and I'm mildly interested in this and don't really want to see it lose momentum... can we identify the major issues that are problematic?
 
EDG said:
So, what really needs fixing here? We've now got another week to look at this, and I'm mildly interested in this and don't really want to see it lose momentum... can we identify the major issues that are problematic?

I've wrestled with starship economics for years and here's my opinion:

Pricing travel costs per jump, rather than per parsec is economically absurd. However, it's better than a flat rate per parsec. Worse, the problem cannot be addressed until the starship design and financing system is finalized. Failure in this area will result in a system where players find it too easy or too hard to make money.

The cost of travel is going to be very dependent on what it costs to send a starship to that destination. This would include starship payments, crew salaries, fuel expenses, life support expenses, and an allocation for maintenance/depreciation, plus a reasonable investment return. Until we know how much ships will cost--and how they will be financed--we can't price travel effectively.

The reason that a flat rate per parsec won't work is that the operating costs per parsec aren't proportional. Most starship expenses are fixed, regardless of how far the ship jumps. The main proportional cost is jump fuel, which is relatively modest (and free if skimming is allowed).

The real cost of high jump ships is the opportunity cost of allocating tonnage to fuel rather than cargo.

And in any market economy, people will pay more to travel further faster.

All these factors combine to require the following:

1. A high jump ship will be most profitable when jumping to its maximum range.

2. All else being equal, a high jump ship cannot compete with a low jump ship on low jump routes, due to the fact that the high jump ship must allocate considerable tonnage to fuel. (This changes dramatically if something like collapsible fuel bladders are allowed).

Also, pricing will always be variable in a market economy. See current air travel prices for example. If pricing is artificially limited by government fiat, then availability will vary. If prices are lower than what the market would demand, tickets will be scarce (and probably only regularly available at higher prices on the black market). If prices are higher than what the market demands, tickets will be plentiful (and probably available cheaper on the black market. So even in the case of government fiat, we must determine the market pricing, if only to set black market rates.

I built a pricing model from an analysis of common starship costs in Classic Traveller. You can see the results at http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=10749

It has worked well in my campaigns.

I can re-run the analysis for MGT ships, but I'll need the following information:

1. Typical financing terms for starships.

2. Typical maintenance costs.

3. Data for standard ships: cost, cargo capacity, passenger capacity and jump capacity.

4. Data for standard Jump-1, Jump-2, Jump-3 and Jump-4 ships.

Warning--you can't use my numbers as is because starships are a LOT cheaper in my campaigns (1/10 of current prices). They are financed over 10 years rather than 40 years and operating costs are the same as in Classic Traveller.
 
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