Over/underpowered Classes

[Dark Mistress]

I haven't played Conan enough yet to really have opinions on the classes yet. But I find this thread very interesting to read. I am very curious how most of you find the temptress stacking up and if one of the three choices of paths you can take is better or worse than the others.

 

[Hervé]

It shouldn't come as a surprise that someone called "Dark Mistress" is interested in the Temptress class...

 

[Spongly]

Viking bows, though often quite long had relatively low draw weights compared to (say) the longbow used by the English in the 100 Years War. The typical 6'+ Viking bow had a draw weight of about 40-65lbs whereas the English longbow, of similar length, had a draw weight in excess of 75lbs, averaging perhaps 90lbs or so and sometimes over 100lbs. Nearly twice as powerful.

True although the Hedeby bow has an estimated 90lbs pull so heavier bows were available. But then armour was generally a lot lighter in Viking Age Iceland too - only the very rich would even be likely to have a mail shirt. Most people you'd be shooting at would have nothing better than a woollen tunic to protect them.

While this is slightly off topic, I'd be interested to see what Daz has come up with for this Viking campaign - I tried writing some rules for running an "Arthurian" campaign (in the sense of a mythical version of 6th century Britain) using Conan, but it ended up being incredibly complicated, requiring classes to be changed (but still balanced), lots of new magic and so on.

 

[Demetrio]

nothing better than a woollen tunic to protect them.

Unless they were wearing flat stones as breast and backplate...

 

[treeplanter]

I don't understand the -1 to save making that huge of a difference. It is not as big as having a low reflex or will save. it is a 5% difference

You guy don't seem to get this.

If I've a bow and you don't, and I've a better movement, you're dead. All your beautiful sneak attack and 2-handed weapon won't matter at all you'll NEVER use them. That does seem powerful to me.

I also heard being out of danger is pretty good.

 

[Demetrio]

If I've a bow and you don't, and I've a better movement, you're dead.

Only with sufficient room to retreat, which isn't necessarily - or even often - available. In Betrayer of Asgard for instance, many of the fights are quite restricted.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I don't understand the -1 to save making that huge of a difference. It is not as big as having a low reflex or will save. it is a 5% difference

In that light, a +1 to Hit with a chosen weapon is not a big deal either - it's 5% difference. And on top of that, it's generally easy to hit stuff in Conan, so you don't even need those extra 5% as badly. On the other hand, a failed Save can kill you pretty quickly.

D20 in general is a system where small numbers add up. A +1 here and a +1 there may not appear much, but several of those flimsy bonuses become quite solid.
And if you compare the Shemitish -1 to the Cimmerian +1 to Will ... that's already 10% difference.

If I've a bow and you don't, and I've a better movement, you're dead.

Not only do you need the space to maneuver, you also get just one shot per round, and hardly a chance of MD, so even if the general plan works, it's going to be slow, tedious and boring and that's not how I want my games, don't know about you of course.

 

[Vortigern]

I'd agree with you, Clovenhoof, that while a valid fighting style ( mobility + range ) it is... less than cinematic as it were in this system.

As you have commented before, that appears to be something that is a plague upon most d20 style systems, intrinsically. It is hard to build an effective dexterity based fighting character. Your own question ( how did you possibly reach 20+ damage? ), in the conan system, is the telling one.

It reminds me of an issue you were trying to discuss previously when exploring alternate weapon damage rules. Because, really, the problem is the dexterity focused guy 'should' be a valid build, as should the archer subdivision of that branch of the tree. In this instance I think the rules fail us.

But not I think without reason.

I think this is intentional, a decision to favor melee over ranged, in a desire to favor a more cinematic and visceral melee combat style in the game. I can see the value and validity of that decision... I just happen to not like it so very much. :wink:

I'm honestly someone who usually prefers classless systems and damage/lethality being skill and situationally based... so, generally speaking, I think the damage shouldn't be weapon based but weapon modified. But that just is not d20 as we know it.

I like Conan for a variety of reasons and it has become pretty much the only d20 system that I will give a good look at anymore, but that doesn't mean my preferences don't surface now and again anyway.

Oh... and I heartily disagree with Sutek that 'this is a game about combat'. That is a play style decision, not a quality of the game system. I generally don't like combat centered games, whether I am playing a combat oriented character or not ( which some of you may be surprised to find that I 'do' in fact do. ), and feel Conan still has a lot of room for a player like myself.

 

[Teriudin]

If I've a bow and you don't, and I've a better movement, you're dead. .

You'll have to have a significant advantage in speed that to be the case. You'll be hard pressed to MD anyone with a bow, and they can just run adjacent to you. So even if you're +20 or +30 feet per move, a guy can still run up next to you. Your shot on the run is 2x move at best, while I can run right at you at 4x move. Next turn, it's really bad for archery class.

There is a feat in the Player's Guide which allows finesse fighters to use Dex instead of Str for damage, but it requires some investment into the fencing knowledge styles.

Still, it'll be tough to get MD with a 1-handed finesse weapon without a sneak attack.

There is a class imbalance in Conan, but maybe it is more of a fighting style imbalance.

 

[treeplanter]

In that light, a +1 to Hit with a chosen weapon is not a big deal either - it's 5% difference. And on top of that, it's generally easy to hit stuff in Conan, so you don't even need those extra 5% as badly. On the other hand, a failed Save can kill you pretty quickly.

D20 in general is a system where small numbers add up. A +1 here and a +1 there may not appear much, but several of those flimsy bonuses become quite solid.
And if you compare the Shemitish -1 to the Cimmerian +1 to Will ... that's already 10% difference.

If I've a bow and you don't, and I've a better movement, you're dead.

Not only do you need the space to maneuver, you also get just one shot per round, and hardly a chance of MD, so even if the general plan works, it's going to be slow, tedious and boring and that's not how I want my games, don't know about you of course.

About the save IT IS a drawback, I AGREE. However IT IS NOT the end of the world. But so is having less skill point. I could also argue that a missing a skill check may be the difference between life and death wich is ALSO true.

Well it sure apply to most outside encounter and some indoor encounter. Unless a huge proportion of your encounter are in a 10 per 10 room that should not be a problem. Also the no chance to score MD as you argue is highly compensate by the fact you can attack at 100+ feet.

Tedious and boring? Le say the 3 PC soldier without range weapon. encounter 3 mounted nomad in a plain and decide to fight, i'll not bother rolling any dice i'll just say "The ride around you and shot until you look like a pincussion. You get captured". that took 30 second.

And about MD, power attack and MD got changed in our game. As one of those who complained that 2-handed weapon were more powerfull than other fighting style blablabla i suggest you do the same.

 

[Ichabod]

I have yet to see a pirate effectively use both Ferocious Attack and SA in the same combat.

Why not? Ferocious Attack gives you an Ini bonus, which increases your chance to go first, so you catch your enemies flat-footed and thus get in all that Sneak Attack. A high-level Pirate who chose ITWF can thus attack up to 6 opponents in the first round thanks to Greater Mobility, or even 8 with some clever multiclassing (i.e. getting your BAB to 16+).
Granted, you don't really need the FA bonus To Hit since a flat-footed opponent has DV10 anyway, it's the Ini bonus that really matters. So there is at least some synergy.

I'm surprised no one has chimed in yet ... for the obvious reason that any round you use Ferocious Attack you cannot use Sneak Attack. It's just ludicrously nonsynergistic. A pirate needs to be a beater (2h weapon, high STR, PA, Cleave) to take advantage of FA, at which point SA isn't terribly important.

I find it completely bizarre that anyone cares about how good a race or class would be for archery. How exactly is someone getting an archer up to doing 20+ damage per shot?

I think the point about archery is not doing MD so often, but being able to stay out of harm's way while making pincushions out of your enemies. As I said, I haven't tried it yet with a PC. However, your best bet for MD would be of course a Hyrkanian or Stygian Bow with good Str rating and Improved Crit. Apart from that, tough luck unless you houserule some more, such as allowing a x1,5 Str bonus for bows (because you use two arms).

In nontheoretical play, i.e. about 50 sessions of play, my archer character was never, not once, able to stay away from the enemy. It just doesn't happen. Now, if the whole party is comprised of ranged killing machines, it might be possible to annihilate enough enemies before they close that archery manages to do something. We've had NPCs archers ravage the party as they could produce enough volume to do 40-60 points of damage a round. But, a single PC archer is a joke ...

... which is fine, actually, with me. This is Conan, not Legolas's Tea Party. I wish I had known how useless archery was before making an archer, but as long as everyone is aware that focusing on archery is insipid and makes for a less fun character to where no one does it, then it's cool. I'm not saying you never want to use a bow (as a PC). I'm just saying that a fun character is one who is reasonable effective in a variety of situations. That means high STR, PA, Cleave and a 2h weapon for a fighter, playing a thief, or playing a sorcerer, unless, of course, you institute house rules.

 

[Ichabod]

I haven't played Conan enough yet to really have opinions on the classes yet. But I find this thread very interesting to read. I am very curious how most of you find the temptress stacking up and if one of the three choices of paths you can take is better or worse than the others.

No experience with how they play. However, the best save combination (might be some magazine class that gets good Fort and Will saves, which would be the only better combo) and 8 skill ranks per level give a solid core. Which path you take depends upon which classes, if any, you multiclass in. If multiclassing with thief, then I'd probably go with SA. If multiclassing with scholar or not multiclassing, I'd go with sorcery. I find the social abilities to be so NPCish, being frequently irrelevant to a traveling party.

And, btw, if there's any class I'd consider overpowered it would be scholar. Magic is as in every FRPG I can think of far more powerful than anything that can be done without it. People can bitch endlessly about how spells aren't D&Desque in terms of ease and power and how the combat options are awkward, but that seems to entirely miss the point.

 

[treeplanter]

I think in term of "Power" in the large sense of the term I indeed aggree that Scholar seem the most powerful, and I would rate Noble second (and tempress somewhere?). Coincidence that they are both on the weak side in combat?

Still about bow, the thing is even if you're character is an archer that don't mean he suck in close combat. Roughly, all the fighting class have similar combat ability, it is not like the archer cannot draw a sword and attack. Your main argument seem to be something like: In a 4 PC group the archer is the one that ditch the less damages per round. (Wich I think is totally false, the only true statement is that you can't really MD unless you crit).

As for shot on the run I agree it suck big time. I would even say it is totally worthless is it writed. I think it should read like Greater mobility (so you can make a single move and fire all of your arrow in a single round) NOW that would rule!

 

[Hervé]

This is Conan, not Legolas's Tea Party.

:lol:

I agree. As the Barbarian in my party would say : bows are for women and cowards.

 

[Vortigern]

This is Conan, not Legolas's Tea Party.

:lol:

I agree. As the Barbarian in my party would say : bows are for women and cowards.

Or the Bossonians who 'somehow' manage to hold back the ravaging hordes? :wink:

 

[treeplanter]

What are you talking this is not Legolas tea party? You don't remember in People of the black circle when this turanian guy slide down on a shield while killing everything?

Don't talk about Legolas please it always remember me f#$%@# ELVES IN HELM DEEPS SHHHHHAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LilithsThrall]

I'm not sure this has been mentioned, but a Noble is more likely to max out his charisma than is a Soldier. That Noble can take Intricate Swordplay by 6th level. Assuming he has an 18 cha, he can have a +5 to his parry. The soldier will need a +4 to match it. At 8th level, the soldier needs a +3 to match it - though the noble may have a higher cha bonus by this time. I'm not sure the soldier, unless he makes a point of having a higher cha, will be able to keep up with the noble's parrying ability until at least after 10th level. This means that the noble is more likely to riposte.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Why on Earth should a Soldier take Intricate Swordplay and pump his Charisma? He simply pumps his Strength to boost both Attack and Parry.
Intricate Swordplay is a nice feat for classes that need / make use of high CHA in other ways, such as Noble, maybe Pirate or even Thief and Scholar. The Soldier is pretty much the last class to take it.

Concerning the Pirate:

I'm surprised no one has chimed in yet ... for the obvious reason that any round you use Ferocious Attack you cannot use Sneak Attack. It's just ludicrously nonsynergistic.

Ooooh. Right. I had forgotten about that - we haven't had a Pirate in the group for a while now. The rules actually clearly state that FA and SA don't mix. Alright, I'm with you there, that's stupid. May have to be changed.
Completely scratching the rule, and making FA and SA 100% compatible, will result in any Level 15 Pirate that wins initiative reliably killing off as many as 7 opponents in the first round of combat, except opponents with Uncanny Dodge. (Note that before Level 15 and Greater Mobility, he can't hit more than twice with FA).

And regarding the Temptress:

the best save combination (might be some magazine class that gets good Fort and Will saves, which would be the only better combo) and 8 skill ranks per level give a solid core. Which path you take depends upon which classes, if any, you multiclass in. If multiclassing with thief, then I'd probably go with SA. If multiclassing with scholar or not multiclassing, I'd go with sorcery. I find the social abilities to be so NPCish, being frequently irrelevant to a traveling party.

We haven't had a Temptress in the game either, but may get one soon.
As for the Saves, I agree Fort+Will would be the best combination. The Temptress's Ref+Will is good for high Ini and magic resistance, but of course leaves the character wide open to Fort saves such as Massive Damage. Anyway.
Apart from that, I haven't really analyzed the class but at first glance, I'd do it exactly the other way round, and take Sorcery while multiclassing with the Thief and vice versa. I agree on the Social abilities though.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Why on Earth should a Soldier take Intricate Swordplay and pump his Charisma? He simply pumps his Strength to boost both Attack and Parry.

Intricate Swordplay doesn't require you to use Cha instead of Str. You use it in addition to Str. That's why, to max out your parry, you want to take Intricate Swordplay and max out your Cha.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Interesting I was curious. I was thinking the sorc path might be the best of the three from reading it if you stuck with the temptress the whole time and the social ones seemed the weakest of the 3. But was curious how it played out if anyone had seen it. Since things don't always play out the way they seem.

Yes to the comment about my user name and liking the class. Yeah i really do find the class interesting, but then my group tends to play fairly high social and urban fantasy games and I imagine conan will be similar when we get around to it. That and i was never a big fan of PrC's and like a wider range of base classes. Sure you can make a temptress type with a rogue or bard in DnD it is interesting to see a specific class built for it.