Orion Salvage Cruiser is broken

[Ben2]

I think the Orion salvage cruiser has distinct problems.

1) The number of AD for the optional mounts is wrong. The SFB advanced missions Salvage Cruiser has only two option mounts, this should translate to two dice in total, not per option. I think this must be a misprint.

2) The lack of OAKDISC, where the Orions pay an additional fee for being able to fire more than three seeking weapons a turn is one way to balance Orions taking all drone mounts, as drones in SFB aren't really powerful until late war speed 32 drones (and all the variants you can put in drone chassis), but these cost extra as does Oakdisc. Tooling up on drones can cost quite a bit, and this prevents the Orion drone fleet that is such a no brainer in ACTA. Also drones run out of ammo in SFB and don't in ACTA, while ADDs do.

Currently the most efficient tournament fleet I could design would be six salvage cruisers and one LR, all options as drones. This gives 51 drone dice per turn with a range of 36". This means you can pull a Minbari and keep the range open (especially as drones are 360 degree weapons) and your opponent, unless they have drones, can't touch you back and moves at the same speed as you and cannot close the range.

It's only 10 points more than the Kzinti frigate. which has just 4 drone racks and is substantially easier to kill.

 

[Rambler]

Ben2 - I know this has already been submitted for Errata. Simplistic thing seems to be that it is a typo in the nose option mounts as it should be 2 banks of 1 weapon (Max of 6 Drones) not 2 banks of 2 as shown

 

[Nomad]

The SAL's option mounts should be reduced to 1AD in line with other Orion ships. That would reduce that fleet to 39 drone dice. Twelve Kzinti frigates can launch forty-eight.

I'd suspect that well handled Federation, Klingon or Kzinti fleets could just about handle that. Other empires are likely to be overwhelmed.

 

[billclo]

deleted

 

[Ben2]

This is down to paperwork. A system where they can run out like ADDs after a few turns might work, but ADDs are consistent across races, whereas some drone racks have differing amounts of ammo (A vs B vs F for instance).

 

[Iain McGhee]

Doubt if it'd be worth tracking since most games wouldn't last long enough for you to need to reload more than once (with the exception of Federation dual-mode racks). It's not like you can have a range of different drone types per rack (at least for now) either.

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

It's a pity there aren't ammunition limits for drones.

Well, IIRC, by the time of the General war, most drone racks had enough reloads to last all but the longest battles. A dozen+ turns.

 

[Iron Domokun]

deleted

 

[billclo]

Most drone racks had four to six "spaces" of drones, and two reloads after Y175/2575 A.D. Still, with things like fast-firing racks and scatter-packs, you could find yourself running out of reloads pretty fast.

I will have to see until the Kzin rules/ships come out, but what I've seen so far leads me to think that in the hands of the Kzin drones that have unlimited shots will be uber weapons.

We'll see what people develop in the way of tactics to deal with it. It'll be interesting for sure.

 

[Finlos]

I would think, having read only what's available to the general public at this point, that Kzintis would favour the long-range battle and snipe with drone volleys until the enemy fleet is dead, dead, dead. The ability to launch 4+ drone per ship per turn can be pretty intimidating and I think the 'Intensify Defensive Fire' might see a lot of first-turn action against Kzintis until the enemy can close and start returning fire.

Again, YMMV when the game hits the streets.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Most of the scenarios have 8-turn limits, so they'll have little chance to exploit having unlimited drone ammo. There's also two Special Actions which allow the target to attempt to evade drone (and plasma) fire, plus one which allows a ship to target seeking weapons attacking a friendly ship.

 

[billclo]

Both of you raise good points.

While say the Klingons can fire maybe 20 drones against 50+, that leaves 30+ which may not be easily stoppable by a ship and it's neighbors.

As far as I know, there's nothing to keep the Kzin from dancing around at range 30-35 and pelting the enemy into submission. Sure the enemy can try to close, but he won't gain ground very quickly if the Kzin point away from him and go max speed and keep on firing drones. You might get a small closure rate for the Klingons by using all power to engines, but it'll take several turns to get into disruptor range. This assumes a floating map. If it's a fixed map then forget this.

Okay, the scenario lasts 8 turns. Even if we say the Kzin only kill one ship a turn, that's 7-8 enemy ships killed, and they may well not lose any at all.

I'll forgo any more discussion about it for now until we see what everyone else comes up about it.

 

[Iain McGhee]

It's a fixed map, typically 6' x 4', and an opposing fleet would often be able to make use of terrain masking to negate the kitties' range advantage when closing.

 

[Iapologisedon4chan]

I would think, having read only what's available to the general public at this point, that Kzintis would favour the long-range battle and snipe with drone volleys until the enemy fleet is dead, dead, dead. The ability to launch 4+ drone per ship per turn can be pretty intimidating and I think the 'Intensify Defensive Fire' might see a lot of first-turn action against Kzintis until the enemy can close and start returning fire.

Again, YMMV when the game hits the streets.

I gave the Kzinti a whirl in a test game last week or so, their tactics are basically what you outline, but you need at least a couple of War Destroyers or Light Cruisers dancing about the enemy at about 11" or so to keep them in place so the rest of the fleet can hammer them with drones.

Against Klingons (their opponents in the test game) and probably Feds as well, Kzinti spend the first couple of turns burning off the enemies ADD. Realistically, don't try to overload your Disruptors, as that means you're closer, and critically, less maneuverable than you really want to be.
Another neat trick is Boosting Power to the Shields, taking the "Fire one Weapon System only" power drain option, and then fire your 4 drones whilst you repair your shields, although you need to be doing this after you've escaped the main melee. It does leave you open somewhat to reciprocal Drone attacks though.

Kzinti actually have pretty good Ph-3 coverage too.

For the record, Klinks in the hands of a player who just clicks with their playstyle, are going to be amazingly good. Also for the record I am not this player

 

[cylence]

ACTA uses fixed maps, and where "terrain" is uncommon in SFB/FC, the scenario rules call for quite a bit of it here. That'll be one of the big adjustments for SFB/FC players - we're used to open spaces and floating maps, ACTA players expect the fixed maps and terrain heavy games.

Kzinti drone bombardment is still an interesting question. At what point size game do the Kzinti pose enough of a threat to force the opposing player into escort formations where phasers and drones end up tasked defensively to protect individual ships from getting picked off? I know I've already got my counters ready to investigate, just need to get some stat cards put together for the ships.

 

[SteeleViper]

Just an idea, as I'm only a SFB player in the distant past [but looking forward to ACTASF], what if the Kzinti have their drone rack with a Firing Arc, most likely F [forward]?

And/or the Kzinti have to keep the target(s) in their Forward Arc so their dish antenna "ears" can maintain lock-on for the drones?

Just an idea, I haven't currently seen any weapon traits that would encompass such a restriction as of yet.

 

[Nomad]

All drones in ACTA, and in the SFU, are 'T', i.e. turret, 360 arc.

You don't need special 'defensive formations' to deal with drone waves. Using the Intensify Defensive Fire! SA phasers and drones can defend friendly ships out to their maximum ranges, 36" in the case of drones.

That's the real value of massed drones. They rarely "hit" anything. They do tie up enemy firepower shooting them down, and a hostile ship using IDF! is 'not' going APE!, reinforcing her shields or overloading her heavy weapons.

Or firing her phasers at you.

 

[Ben2]

In terms of points efficiency and survivability a Kzinti fleet of 5 New Heavy Cruisers and one war destroyer. This gives 24 drone dice, 22 disruptors, 11 ADDs, the smallest ship has 20 shields and 20 damage.

While they can't match the Orions for number of drone dice the Kzinti have other heavy weapons to add to the mix. Ironically a Kzinti fleet wouldn't have that much trouble with the Orion cheese fleet thanks to large numbers of ADDs, the ability to throw back a substantial number of drones, and all their phaser 3s.

It's just Orions that need fixing, as the Kzintis are fine. However an Orion Salvage cruiser costs the same as a Kzinti war destroyer, has more than 50% more hull, 4 more shields, the same number of phasers and drones before the weapon options are chosen and 6+ stealth.

Even changing it to 1 AD per option and adding an Oakdisc fleet rule to the Orions, I think the Salvage cruiser is underpointed. Compare it to the Kzinti Medium cruiser, which is 10 points more.

 

[cylence]

You don't need special 'defensive formations' to deal with drone waves. Using the Intensify Defensive Fire! SA phasers and drones can defend friendly ships out to their maximum ranges, 36" in the case of drones.

That's the real value of massed drones. They rarely "hit" anything. They do tie up enemy firepower shooting them down, and a hostile ship using IDF! is 'not' going APE!, reinforcing her shields or overloading her heavy weapons.

Or firing her phasers at you.

I disagree about not needing defensive formations. Because IDF is based off the attacked ship being within range and arc of the defending ship, you'll need to keep fairly close for defensive phaser protection. Unlike in SFB/FC, you can't use picket escorts between the drone launching ships and your fleet to shoot down incoming drones - you're not targeting the drones, but the attacked ship. For fleets with few drones and light/no ADD (Fed, the plasma side of the SFU), a concentrated drone bombardment can mean either leaving a ship to hope to shrug it off, or keeping your fleet in close quarters to stay within the 6" range on P3s, or using up those precious P1s. I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong here - like the other SFU games, certain fleets are stronger/weaker when matched up against others; it's just that defending against drone bombardment has a different feel and I'm curious to see how that works out in large point games.

As for the SAL, I think we all expect the number of option mounts to be fixed with the errata. The ACTA:SF drone rules do make drones a more powerful option mount than they have been in other SFU incarnations, but I don't see it a game breaker. I'm more concerned about how damage ratings are calculated in general: there's no way the SAL should be able to take almost twice as much of a pounding as a Kzinti CM. I'm hoping this weekend to pit 2 D6s and a D5 vs 3 SAL with drones, and again against 3 CM's, and see how the results pare up.

 

[Iapologisedon4chan]

For fleets with few drones and light/no ADD (Fed)

I'm sorry, but what? Fed's effectively have some of the best ADD scores in the game thanks to G-Racks.

As for the SAL, I think we all expect the number of option mounts to be fixed with the errata. The ACTA:SF drone rules do make drones a more powerful option mount than they have been in other SFU incarnations, but I don't see it a game breaker. I'm more concerned about how damage ratings are calculated in general: there's no way the SAL should be able to take almost twice as much of a pounding as a Kzinti CM.

This on the other hand I totally agree with. Cargo spaces should NOT be counted for HP, or if they do, then it should be at a 1:1 ratio, not the x2 rate that hull boxes get.