Orgies
- Thread starter Hyborian
- Start date
Hyborian said:
Well, on the one hand, at least from the point of view of the characters, there are some clear (ahem) benefits to orgies, though nothing that would have a character sheet impact for most.
However, from a game mechanics perspective, orgies to Derketo are an example of a 'weird pleasure,' which is one of several prerequisites to taking the Debaucher sorcery feat from Scrolls of Skelos. Characters with that feat can max out their power points by engaging in 'pleasurable activities.' Like orgies.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
I read that some polytheist (ancient) religions had prostitutes in their temples (love deity). This is also in some current cultures mariage and adultery have important meaning.Orkin said:
The only authorized intercourses were in the marriage or in those temples. Breaking the rules meant death.
But still I don't see the need for special rules. Then we should have special rules for every decadent behaviour that could provide some MP's. What about mass killing? Does copulating with an ass does bring more points than perverting a virgin? [What would the PETA say in this case?]
This is all nonsense unless you want to have a book on perversion, sadism and decadence and crualty (and sacrifice).
I can imagine a boxed set on the topic with cardboard showing pictures of all that is imaginable.
And bring us a new artist who could use pictures from the web on every such case.
Ah I forgot this was just a game; then kill them all just for fun.
Isn't participating in an orgy its own reward? :twisted:
Anyway, if you are really hard up for some rules for your orgy (ah ha ha ha! :lol: "hard up" get it? Its funny cuz ... oh never mind) you could always check out the BoEF.
As for myslef the only rule I need for my orgies is that all gerbils must be properly lubed before use.
Later.
Anyway, if you are really hard up for some rules for your orgy (ah ha ha ha! :lol: "hard up" get it? Its funny cuz ... oh never mind) you could always check out the BoEF.
As for myslef the only rule I need for my orgies is that all gerbils must be properly lubed before use.
Later.
argo said:
I guess I wasn't clear enough... the rules say that the benefits of worshipping Derketo are "Spells and Orgies", with an capital O, which tends to mean that it is a specific game term (with game rules associated with it). Also, the rulebook says about Derleto's priests : "perks include training noble girls in the ways of pleasure".
So I wasn't looking for rules to act out out an orgy. I just wanted to know the effect of Derketo's orgies in game terms (if any).
Hyborian said:
Well I would probably consider an orgy to be a Ritual for purposes of gaining power points.
Beyond that I'd say it is all flavor text. Like I said an orgy is its own reward. Use it for adventure hooks! Important young nobles are being "seduced" into Derkto worship and away from their parents. Worshipers are going into the temples for a "standard" good time but some are mysteriously not comming out again (sold to slavers? sacrificed to dark powers that are not Dekerto?). Stuff like that.
Hope that helps.
argo said:
Sure.
I was just puzzle byt Derketo's description. I still think that it was not intented to be flavor text (contrarily to the "perk" mentioned earlier) since other cults that practice orgies don't mention them in the benefits of worship. I think it was probably meant to be a special mass ritual using rules similar to sacrifice (that's how I'll use it anyway).
Anyway, I Next time I'll ask about slaying, slaughtering and torturing people : it seems to be a more "acceptable" topic than "orgies" those days
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Orgy can't be considered as a easily as a derivative way of decadence and corruption. Prostitution was as common in ancient time as it is now (and also existed in ancient Israël, not as a necessary evil but as a need for unmarried male) but was more than tolerated.
It must be told that sex wasn't taboo in that time. It is the Christian church who introduced the notion of guilt for having sex when you aren't married.
Can then participation to an orgy be called a corrupted act?
Human sacrifice wasn't as common and it was of course considered as an evil act (murder). Some cultures used it in religion as a propitiatory way to satisfy some fearful deity. This was the case for the native people of South and Central America of course but also for some Middle-Eastern (earth) deities where blood was used to "nurture" (spiritually) the earth and prevent bad harvest. I even believe that Ishtar was one of them.
This is also because earth deity are strongly connected to the underworld (death) and many mythos tell of a deity falling in love with (or being abduct by) a death god and while she is absent all the plants "above" are perishing.
Then some hero or god goes after her to take her back but a pact must be made with the death god who is threatening to open the gate of his realm to release the dead in the realm of the living.
In most mythos the agreement tells that the earth godess must spend 6 months above and 6 months in the underworld. This is the mythic explanation of growth and seasons.
All this to say that the view of corruption and decadence highly depends on the morals of each civilization.
It must be told that sex wasn't taboo in that time. It is the Christian church who introduced the notion of guilt for having sex when you aren't married.
Can then participation to an orgy be called a corrupted act?
Human sacrifice wasn't as common and it was of course considered as an evil act (murder). Some cultures used it in religion as a propitiatory way to satisfy some fearful deity. This was the case for the native people of South and Central America of course but also for some Middle-Eastern (earth) deities where blood was used to "nurture" (spiritually) the earth and prevent bad harvest. I even believe that Ishtar was one of them.
This is also because earth deity are strongly connected to the underworld (death) and many mythos tell of a deity falling in love with (or being abduct by) a death god and while she is absent all the plants "above" are perishing.
Then some hero or god goes after her to take her back but a pact must be made with the death god who is threatening to open the gate of his realm to release the dead in the realm of the living.
In most mythos the agreement tells that the earth godess must spend 6 months above and 6 months in the underworld. This is the mythic explanation of growth and seasons.
All this to say that the view of corruption and decadence highly depends on the morals of each civilization.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
All true, but one must also consider Robert E. Howard's viewpoint when writing of the Hyborian Age. If Howard considered something decadent, then the civilised Hyborian probably would also.
Pharoah Kromium
Mongoose
H.W.F. Saggs in "The Babylonians" states: "Monogomy was based on social and not moral considerations, for no stigma attached to resort to temple prostitutes.." The same source also mentions an aspect of Ishtar as nymphomanic, satisfying 120 lovers without difficulty. However, the Babylonians also had laws against adultery - I'm afraid you can't pin that one on the Christian Church, remember Jesus stopped the stoning of the "woman taken in adultery".The King said:
The Church was much divided over attitudes to sex, quite possibly the influence of older philosophical and religious ideas contributed to the sense of guilt associated with sex, e.g some Gnostic and Dualist sects who considered the propogation of the race itself as serving Evil; I believe the Bogomils were one such group and their name gave rise to the word buggery due to the practices ascribed to them(an idea that cropped up later with the Cathars.)
The way I read Howard, the Hyborians and other Northern people seem to view the Southerners as decadent, orgies and such just being a manifestation of this.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
I know that adultery was/is a crime in most societies that had social laws just because marriage is a social as well as an administrative act.
However the relation with the sexual pleasure is a typical Christian problem because the sons of Adam and Eva were born from a sin.
In most polytheist mythos, all gods are copulating with each other, be it between a brother and a sister or a daughter and a father. The realms of the gods was of course sacred and forbidden to mortals but they view the matter differently: the Greek, among others, had no shame to create naked statue where phallus played an important role and most ancients culture presented their love/earth/mother goddess with big breasts and a disproportionnated vulva/vagina something inconcevable in the Christian Church. As well as it would be to represent the Christ or the virgin Mary in naked form because sense of decency is more important to Christian and Christian-influenced culture.
There may be many Christian sects but the most important ones follow this way. Of course it progressively belonged to common morals. This is the way of tendancy.
The relationship of Jesus with women is always modest. He never took a women (at least it isn't written) even though he could have because he symbolized man, and if only to show his followers the place of women in society (a position then that probably would differ with his view).
For example, almost every one is the world wears neck-tie and costume even in countries where this object isn't (India, Arab countries, Africa, etc.). It would be considered impolite if you wouldn't were this garment (though tolerated if you don't belong to a Western state) and many institutions and establishments would not allow you in if you wouldn't present with them (unless you have reputation and money perhaps).
But for Westerners any other rig-out implies that you're a decadent rebel against the conservative ideas of the well-meaning society.
However the relation with the sexual pleasure is a typical Christian problem because the sons of Adam and Eva were born from a sin.
In most polytheist mythos, all gods are copulating with each other, be it between a brother and a sister or a daughter and a father. The realms of the gods was of course sacred and forbidden to mortals but they view the matter differently: the Greek, among others, had no shame to create naked statue where phallus played an important role and most ancients culture presented their love/earth/mother goddess with big breasts and a disproportionnated vulva/vagina something inconcevable in the Christian Church. As well as it would be to represent the Christ or the virgin Mary in naked form because sense of decency is more important to Christian and Christian-influenced culture.
There may be many Christian sects but the most important ones follow this way. Of course it progressively belonged to common morals. This is the way of tendancy.
The relationship of Jesus with women is always modest. He never took a women (at least it isn't written) even though he could have because he symbolized man, and if only to show his followers the place of women in society (a position then that probably would differ with his view).
For example, almost every one is the world wears neck-tie and costume even in countries where this object isn't (India, Arab countries, Africa, etc.). It would be considered impolite if you wouldn't were this garment (though tolerated if you don't belong to a Western state) and many institutions and establishments would not allow you in if you wouldn't present with them (unless you have reputation and money perhaps).
But for Westerners any other rig-out implies that you're a decadent rebel against the conservative ideas of the well-meaning society.
Pharoah Kromium
Mongoose
Oh dear, here we go again...The King said:
What I said is that you cannot pin the origin of sexual guilt on Christianity.
The origins of sanctioned "prostitution" such as temple prostitution in Babylon are probably a response to avoid the sanctions that go with adultery. Interesting that the temples of Yahweh featured devotees, whose role is translated as "prostitute" in the Authorised Version, up 'til the 7th C BC - any connection with the time spent in the Babylonian Captivity?
Christianity, apart from being a direct offshoot of Judaism, was also influenced by, and co-existant with, many other ideas as it developed - Gnosticism and Dualism as well as Mithraism. The guilt thing goes beyond the Adam and Eve story.
I'm afraid there are several examples of vulvae decorating churches in Britain, most notably at Kilpeck, they are known as Sheela-na-gigs.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
There was only one temple and there were certainly no prostitute in there. These were probably in "special houses" or in their own as the Marie-Magdalena in the new testament.Pharoah Kromium said:
Of course orthodox priests condemned such practices but this is like the actual society in Israel: not all jews are fundamentalist followers.
Britain is known for its mixture of Celtic myths in Christianism. This is the only way the Celts would accept the new religion because druids were so powerful (before Caesar eradicated most of them).
King Arthur's tales is full of Celtic details and the holy grail is thought to be probably a representation of the cauldron of plenty.
BTW isn't Sheela-na-gigs the name of the mother-godess that becomes Shub-Niggurath under the pen of Lovecraft?
Pharoah Kromium
Mongoose
The druids were extirpated over a hundred years after the death of Caesar and Christianity arrived as one of numerous Eastern cults practiced by Roman and Romano-British inhabitants. If Arthur existed he was probably a Christian, though he upset the Church. Christianity was all but removed by the Angles and Saxons but re-introduced by Irish (Celtic) Christians and missionaries from Catholic Europe. The Celtic form of Christianity was weakened at the Synod of Whitby and Roman Catholicism prevailed. The carvings at churches such as Kilpeck are from some 600 years later still.The King said:
I'm afraid this Celtic business is far to overstated, there's a lot of resistance to the less sexy thought that the paganism being replaced by the re-introduction of Christianity wasn't this "celtic wonderland" that the New-Agers are obsessed with. Easter for example is named after a Saxon godess. Christianity did have to take pagan sensibilities into account but few of these were "celtic".
Yes, a nice connection was made between the Sheela-na-gigs and Lovecraft in the Pagan Publishing "Golden Dawn" CoC campaign.
Pharoah Kromium
Mongoose
Well I would probably consider an orgy to be a Ritual for purposes of gaining power points.
[/quote]
"Meanwhile, back at the thread.."
Yes, given that the word comes from the Greek for "secret" or "mystery rites", if a religion gives a benefit due to an orgy it's probably like argo suggests.
Remember, the modern interpretation of the word has been altered substantially from it's origin, it doesn't need to imply deviance or sexual activity but a secret act of worship.
[/quote]
"Meanwhile, back at the thread.."
Yes, given that the word comes from the Greek for "secret" or "mystery rites", if a religion gives a benefit due to an orgy it's probably like argo suggests.
Remember, the modern interpretation of the word has been altered substantially from it's origin, it doesn't need to imply deviance or sexual activity but a secret act of worship.
