Oreintal Magic: Am I missing something?

[kintire]

I am a scholar. I am selecting my options to deal with an uppity warrior.

With Hypnotism, I can spend 2PP and 2 rounds to kill him instantly.

With Curses, I can spend (is it 4?) to turn his bones to jelly, rendering him helpless for hours.

With Oriental magic, I can spend 7PP to become almost as effective in combat as I would have been had I gone for a fighting class that level. For a few rounds.

I'm just not seeing the attraction. Oriental magic seems to cost you large wads of PP for really quite trivial effects. Am I missing something? what's the other side of the equation?

 

[Trodax]

Yeah, the Scholar PC in my last game had Oriental Magic; it wasn't very useful for him (he was from Khitai so it suited his character, though).

Isn't there a Oriental spell (the Basic spell IIRC) that makes you immune to Hypnotism? That could be very useful if you're moving around in the right (or should I say wrong?) circles.

Also, Oriental Magic is a prerequisite for Gelid Bones, which is a really great spell.

 

[urdinaran]

Wanna say that Oriental Magic is a pre-req to some pretty good spells. I also recall seeing some combos using "Darting Serpent" (???).

 

[MadDog]

Well, its mostly subtle stuff. Calm of the Adept (basic spell) is quite nice by the time you get 8 levels of Scholar in. +2DEX, WIS, CHA and immune to all hypnotism effects.

I do think as a class of spells, it needs more spells.

Mad Dog

 

[kintire]

well, yes, the Basic spell is quite handy. But, "its something you have to endure to get to the good stuff" isn't much of a recommendation really...

 

[quigs]

I think the main purpose of the Oriental Magic spells was to boost combat abilities, as the Khitai scholars were quite martial in their training, IIRC. Maybe combine a couple of levels of that monkish class from Signs and Portents from a few months ago, then see how handy it becomes

 

[kintire]

Maybe combine a couple of levels of that monkish class from Signs and Portents from a few months ago, then see how handy it becomes

Not Very.

I'm sorry, +1 attack damage and dodge for six PP (not seven, my mistake) and additional dex at 1PP per point (capped at your scholar level) strikes me as a pretty poor showing for advanced spells. And these things last for 1 round oer scholar level? You would be strictly better off leaving out the whole scholar class and going striahgt for combat class levels.

 

[quigs]

Well, for Darting Serpent, you may wish to increase its duration to 1 minute/scholar level. This will make it a viable spell for use when combat is expected but you have a little time to prepare and await your prey.

Warrior Trance could also be changed in the same way, or you could expand the description to actually increase your Strength by 2 points, which would give you the same +1 attack and damage but for unarmed attacks only. If you use a weapon the effects are lost. This would make your scholar a little better at not only unarmed attacks, but grappling, bull rushes, trip attacks, etc. which I think is the main purpose of the spell.

Ultimately, if you are going for the unarmed scholar / warrior type of NPC I would seriously consider at least a couple levels of the S&P class. Its no D&D monk, but its about as close as you're gonna get in Conan, and they get some seriously cool abilities. And remember, there's no CR's in Conan, so if you want your NPC to do something spectacular that is normally unavailable to low level characters, feel free to boost his level by a few to ensure he presents a serious threat to the players

 

[argo]

I think the disapointment here is due to having the wrong set of expectations. You seem to want spells that will let you compete with warriors on a regular basis (like every combat). Thats not what Oriental Magic does. What it does do is let you compete with warriors for maybe one cobat per day. And that is prety good considering that you are still a full-scholar otherwise.

Think of it like this. A scholar with Oriental Magic can spend all day today casting divinations and curses from his stronghold and tomorrow when he is attacked in the market he can blow his full days supply of PP to power up for one combat.

How many Soldiers can say the same thing?

 

[kintire]

You seem to want spells that will let you compete with warriors on a regular basis (like every combat). Thats not what Oriental Magic does. What it does do is let you compete with warriors for maybe one cobat per day

But it doesn't. It increases your attack bonus by less than taking the levels you needed to get the spells in a combat class instead would have done, and your defence and hps are still inferior.

A scholar with Oriental Magic can spend all day today casting divinations and curses from his stronghold and tomorrow when he is attacked in the market he can blow his full days supply of PP to power up for one combat.

Or he can cast a curse on his opponent and take them out much more reliably, safely and effectively... and vastly vastly cheaper in PP.

How many Soldiers can say the same thing?

None, and a smart move on their part it is as far as I can see.

My expectations for oriental magic are that when you spend nine PPs on warrior trance and darting serpent, the results should be comparable with spending 9PPs on, say, curses. As far as I can see it isn't even faintly close.

 

[argo]

You seem to want spells that will let you compete with warriors on a regular basis (like every combat). Thats not what Oriental Magic does. What it does do is let you compete with warriors for maybe one cobat per day

But it doesn't. It increases your attack bonus by less than taking the levels you needed to get the spells in a combat class instead would have done, and your defence and hps are still inferior.

Again, I'm feeling unreasonable expectations here. That soldier can't do the things you can do, where is your expectation that you're going to beat him on his home turf comming from?

And I do think that Oriential Magic can make you competetive with a warrior. Warrior Trance alone makes up for the difference in BAB and actually puts you one up at 18th level.

My expectations for oriental magic are that when you spend nine PPs on warrior trance and darting serpent, the results should be comparable with spending 9PPs on, say, curses. As far as I can see it isn't even faintly close.

So what advantages does Oriental Magic have over curses and hypnotism?
-no saving throw: if your target rolls his save (or has a Greater Warding up) then you have just wasted your PP and your turn
-multiple effects, self: the self-buffs in Oriental Magic raise your performance on several levels (offense, defense, initative, Ref saves, magical defense, magical offense)
-multiple effects, opponents: your self-buffs are just as effective against every opponent you come into contact with, most other "combat" spells effect only one target.

Also, many curses and hypnotism's depend on the Evil Eye which has an easy counter.

Point is, if you know what Oriental Magic can and can't do, and you incorporate that into your strategy it is a prety good style.

 

[kintire]

Again, I'm feeling unreasonable expectations here. That soldier can't do the things you can do, where is your expectation that you're going to beat him on his home turf comming from?

after burning the PPs needed to get oriental magic going, I can't do very much of the things I can do either... And the answer to your second point is "from the spells in the oreintal magic style that seem designed for exactly that."

And I do think that Oriential Magic can make you competetive with a warrior. Warrior Trance alone makes up for the difference in BAB and actually puts you one up at 18th level.

That's fine, assuming I ever get to 18th level. Until that point the duration is too short to be worth it, and the effects are not enough to make unarmed combat survivable.

no saving throw: if your target rolls his save (or has a Greater Warding up) then you have just wasted your PP and your turn

true, but against this has to be balanced the fact that you do have to actually hit them to do any damage.

multiple effects, self: the self-buffs in Oriental Magic raise your performance on several levels (offense, defense, initative, Ref saves, magical defense, magical offense)

Thats true as well, but then turning someone's bones to jelly makes it pretty easy to attck him, and I'm fairly solid defensively if he can't move! The magical defence from Calm of the Adept is nice thats certainly true. I don't recall any magical offence buffs?

multiple effects, opponents: your self-buffs are just as effective against every opponent you come into contact with, most other "combat" spells effect only one target.

Yes, but the effects on each opponent are fairly minor. In any case, with a scholar's defense advancement and hit dice, you are on a limited number of targets based on their ability to hit back... I'm not convinced that my hit points will last longer in a fight than my power points!

Also, many curses and hypnotism's depend on the Evil Eye which has an easy counter.

That IS true but some of the best don't.

Point is, if you know what Oriental Magic can and can't do, and you incorporate that into your strategy it is a prety good style.

Which means, I am coming to the conclusion, "don't bother until levels 12+ at least, when the durations last long enough to mean something"

I kinda wish they had warned me about that in advance.

 

[Sven]

Oriental Magic is best if you play a Khitan Scholar who concentrates on unarmed combat. With feats like Brawl, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Critical (unarmed) or Greater Improved Strike (from Hyboria's Finest) combined with Warrior Trance you can create a deadly fighting style enhanced by magic. Learn extra styles like curses (to get Gelid Bones) and counterspells (to defend yourself against other sorcery) and take bonus feats instead of new styles (remember, scholars with Calm of the adept have a greater selection).

This is also very Conan-esque. Think of the Kithan who kills or paralyses with a simple touch.

 

[slaughterj]

Also, many curses and hypnotism's depend on the Evil Eye which has an easy counter.

What do you mean?

 

[kintire]

Also, many curses and hypnotism's depend on the Evil Eye which has an easy counter.




What do you mean?

Avoid eye contact.

With feats like Brawl, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Critical (unarmed) or Greater Improved Strike (from Hyboria's Finest) combined with Warrior Trance you can create a deadly fighting style enhanced by magic. Learn extra styles like curses (to get Gelid Bones) and counterspells (to defend yourself against other sorcery) and take bonus feats instead of new styles (remember, scholars with Calm of the adept have a greater selection).

Are you sure? Are you quite sure I don't create a barely adequate hitter with a glass jaw? I may have a high dex and extra attack and damage, but only for a short time, and I do still have a scholar's attack bonus, defense bonus and hit dice. I just have this haunting feeling that I would be far better off with either a Khitan soldier with all the above feats, more besides, and soldier hits and parry, or a Khitan sorcer with Gelid Bones, Dread Serpent and opportunistic sacrifice.

 

[Trodax]

The magical defence from Calm of the Adept is nice thats certainly true. I don't recall any magical offence buffs?

You get +2 Cha, which adds to magical attack roll.

With feats like Brawl, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Critical (unarmed) or Greater Improved Strike (from Hyboria's Finest) combined with Warrior Trance you can create a deadly fighting style enhanced by magic. Learn extra styles like curses (to get Gelid Bones) and counterspells (to defend yourself against other sorcery) and take bonus feats instead of new styles (remember, scholars with Calm of the adept have a greater selection).

Are you sure? Are you quite sure I don't create a barely adequate hitter with a glass jaw? I may have a high dex and extra attack and damage, but only for a short time, and I do still have a scholar's attack bonus, defense bonus and hit dice. I just have this haunting feeling that I would be far better off with either a Khitan soldier with all the above feats, more besides, and soldier hits and parry, or a Khitan sorcer with Gelid Bones, Dread Serpent and opportunistic sacrifice.

This would be my guess as well. Haven't tried it out in a game, but I'm really not sure that a combat focused Scholar would be all that effective against real men (by which I mean Soldiers and Barbarians :wink: ).
However, as argo points out, if Oriental Magic was too good at making you a fighter it would probably be overpowered since it is only one sorcery style and the Scholar can have many other styles besides it in his arsenal.

 

[Sven]

The magical defence from Calm of the Adept is nice thats certainly true. I don't recall any magical offence buffs?

You get +2 Cha, which adds to magical attack roll.

With feats like Brawl, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Critical (unarmed) or Greater Improved Strike (from Hyboria's Finest) combined with Warrior Trance you can create a deadly fighting style enhanced by magic. Learn extra styles like curses (to get Gelid Bones) and counterspells (to defend yourself against other sorcery) and take bonus feats instead of new styles (remember, scholars with Calm of the adept have a greater selection).

Are you sure? Are you quite sure I don't create a barely adequate hitter with a glass jaw? I may have a high dex and extra attack and damage, but only for a short time, and I do still have a scholar's attack bonus, defense bonus and hit dice. I just have this haunting feeling that I would be far better off with either a Khitan soldier with all the above feats, more besides, and soldier hits and parry, or a Khitan sorcer with Gelid Bones, Dread Serpent and opportunistic sacrifice.

This would be my guess as well. Haven't tried it out in a game, but I'm really not sure that a combat focused Scholar would be all that effective against real men (by which I mean Soldiers and Barbarians :wink: ).
However, as argo points out, if Oriental Magic was too good at making you a fighter it would probably be overpowered since it is only one sorcery style and the Scholar can have many other styles besides it in his arsenal.

Okay. let's say we have a level 20 scholar with BAB+15, DEX 13, STR 13, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Combat), Greater Unarmed Combat (1D12) and Warrior Trance activated. For 20 rounds he can attack with +23/+18/+13, dealing 1D12 +7 points of damage. He also has a dodge bonus of +14. He can enhance this further by using Darting Serpent and Calm of the Adept. And if he uses Gelig Bones on his first round of attack, well, no more real men.

As I said, he should also take curses because he can now use them effectively in melee.

It is not the best way, because such scholars must concentrate more on feats, and less on sorcery styles, but such a character could be fun.

 

[Trodax]

Hmmm, I don't know; getting that 1d12 unarmed damage requires you to spend five feats, which could go a long way in beefing up a more traditional warrior.
I just think that the lack of armour, hit points and Fortitude save will weigh pretty heavily against a Scholar in combat. He would really need a huge Dodge score to compensate. A Dodge of 24 is OK, but a 20th level Soldier will come crashing through it.

And if he uses Gelid Bones on his first round of attack, well, no more real men.

This is damn powerful; I agree.

 

[kintire]

And if he uses Gelig Bones on his first round of attack, well, no more real men.

But here's a question: Would a scholar who did not take any of those feats, took only Calm of the Adept from the oriental school and just did gelid bones all the time be any worse off? And he'd be five feats/sorcery styles and nine PP up on the other type...