Opposed Rolls vs. Static Defense

[Destan]

Hi all -

One house rule/variant our group uses for Conan is the idea of opposed rolls instead of a static Parry or Dodge defense. In other words, the target makes a defense roll as the attacker makes his attack roll. Higher roll wins. So a bandit with Parry 15 would instead make a Parry defense roll (adding +5 to the result) and compare that to the attacker's roll. Nothing new here, certainly.

We've found that it really spices up combat and keeps players engaged even when it's not their turn, since they get to roll d20's each time they're attacked by a foe. My fears of burdening and/or slowing combat are, I'm happy to report, unrealized.

If you haven't tried it, I'd recommend you give it a shot to see if it works for your group. If you have tried it and use any other tweaks or house rules related to opposed rolls, please let me know - would love to hear about them.

Thanks,
D

 

[Clovenhoof]

Personally I am not a friend of active parry. Even if we say that it doesn't bog the game down, the problem remains that increasing the number of die rolls always works against the players in the long run.

If you want to keep the players on their toes during the whole round, you may try the similar concept "Players Roll All The Dice". Which essentially means that you give your players Active Defense as you describe, but use a plain 10 (or 11 if you want to be mathematically accurate) for all NPC rolls.

So when a PC attacks an NPC, things stay exactly as they are by default.
But if an NPC attacks a PC, the attack value is always 11+Attack Bonus, and the PC rolls D20 + Defense Bonus. Get it?

(Criticals are also reversed, of course. If a player rolls a 1 for Defense, it counts like a Natural 20. If an NPC with a Scimitar and Improved Crit attacks, it's a Threat if the player rolls 1-6 for defense.)

I used to use this, but my current group doesn't like it for some reason. However, since we are just 3 players + GM, it's not really necessary either; combat rounds go quickly enough.

 

[maladaar]

the problem remains that increasing the number of die rolls always works against the players in the long run

The Law of Large Numbers would disagree with this statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

I do like the concept of "Players Roll All the Dice". We have used it and the players did like making more rolls.

 

[Demetrio]

It doesn't.

The simple fact is that although you tend to get a more predictable spread of numbers the more dice rolls you make, it is also true that you get a higher aggregate of extreme results. And it is the extreme results that cause problems for the players because their characters will suffer more dice rolls in their 'lives' than any npc.

Lets say there's a 1 in 20 chance of any given roll being disastrous for a pc. If you have a game with 200 dice rolls, there will be around 10 disastrous results. But if you run a game with 400 dice rolls, you'll have twice as many diabolical results inflicted on the same number of pcs.

 

[superc0ntra]

I like the players make all the rolls as a great compromise between speed and die rolling

 

[maladaar]

Lets say there's a 1 in 20 chance of any given roll being disastrous for a pc. If you have a game with 200 dice rolls, there will be around 10 disastrous results.

You are refering to the Law of Averages, which is not a Mathematical Principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_averages

 

[Demetrio]

And I'm saying that the principle you quoted isn't relevant (at least not in the way you meant). It's the aggregate of extremes that's the problem.

(I didn't say I was referring to a principle by the way)

 

[treeplanter]

The law of the large number state basicly read that the more you throw dice, the Variance will get closer to zéro.

So, after millions of d20 roll, you can expect that you're Average result will be 10.5. So in term of damage dealt, rolling active defense would actually result in less damages taken by the PC in the long run.

Howevever, the fact if it is good or bad for the player is another story. If you roll a 1 for defense in a round, you're probably pretty much dead.

 

[Clovenhoof]

It's as Demetrio has explained, the extreme results cause the trouble for PCs, not the average rolls. My Barbarian can stand in the middle of the fray for many rounds and laugh in his enemies' faces as long as they roll average, but a single Critical Hit still can send him sprawling to the floor any second.

What you describe, treeplanter, would hold true if there were no Critical Hits, no Power Attack and no Massive Damage. But these factors being so crucial to combat in Conan, the extreme results that will trigger them are much more important. And twice the amount of rolls means twice as many extreme results. Which the NPCs don't need to mind because there's always more where they come from. So long story short, it works against the players in the long run.

On a slightly related note, this is also the reason why Natural 1s do not have any "critical fumble" effects in D20 - you just miss and that's it. Because otherwise, a level 20 fighter would have a four times greater risk of hurting himself than a level 1 fighter, and that can hardly be "on".

 

[Supplement Four]

We use it. I wrote a post on this a year or two ago.

We find that it helps visualize and transfer the "feel" of battle to the players, like so...

"The big, red haired vanir swings his mighty axe, using both hands..."

Dice rolled, total is 17!

Oh crap! The player thinks. Here comes some damage.

Player rolls defense. It's an 18 total!

"Just in the nick of time, you swing up your sword, two handed, in an attempt to block...AND THE VANIR HITS YOU SO HARD THAT THE FORCE RATTLES YOUR VERY BONES! But, you blocked his blow.

"You then back swing, picking up momentum and come down hard on his un-protected right shoulder..."

Player rolls attack, with total of 7.

"But, it's a weak attempt. After absorbing the Vanir's might swing, you find your energy spent."

Vanir rolls defense, totaling 5.

"Yet the Vanir had over extended himself with his blow! His weight and momentum, as much as your swing, allows the point of your sword to bite into his leather and chain."

Roll damage....





We've found the Opposed throw method quite fun and quite lending itself to the rugged and grity Conan "feel".