On Moving Planets and other Impossible Projects

[captainjack23]

i think that there is plenty of room in traveller for both hard a not so hard science fiction.

I also think so.

In my view it is just a matter of taste, and while I prefer a more "hard"
approach to the science of a setting, I can well understand that others
prefer a different way of handling science in their games, and have no
problem at all with it.

Besides, in a way I am more interested in the depth of coherent and con-
sistent detail of a setting than in its scientific accuracy, but science hap-
pens to be a very good tool to make a lot of details coherent and consis-
tent - and thereby a setting plausible.

What I do not like in a setting are implausibilities and faulty logic, becau-
se they ruin my suspension of disbelief. And it does not really matter that
much for me whether it is "bad science" or "bad fantasy", badly designed
magic systems with lots of contradictions annoy me just as much.

In other words, I could happily play a setting where six legged pigs can
fly - until the moment when it is mentioned that each of those pigs gives
eight knuckles of pork ... :wink:

I think those comments pretty much sum up my ideas also, with the main caveat being that all groups of players and GMs seem to be willing to settle on a level of suspension of disbelief; generally, that's what "serious examination" for a universe needs in play, and gets in reality. Here, we don't have the slightest idea if any of us actually do play, so the discussion is much more theoretical, and thus academic, and thus sometimes entrenched and extreme.

The holes that a single dedicated, interested party can pick in any setting quickly pass the point of being an issue, or useful for most groups, I think. Even then one still requires a level of suspension of disbelief -as has been pointed out, how seriously can you complain about an economic systems realism, design and outputs in a game where you freely accept that FTL and reactionless drives exist ? (answer: VERY SERIOUSLY )

Still, I am encouraged that on this board at least, there really do seem to be few "Science =UNfun" posts. Lots of "SCIENCE in service to the game" posts, and lots of "As much as I can use but no more" Posts. Possibly the sticking point is the posts that fall into "Science except when it isn't contributing to the FUN" ; its easy, I supose to read them as "science isn't fun" unless one rrealizes that what it says is "science is mostly FUN, but sometimes gets in the way" (such as FTL in most interstellar settings). If I've missed some really antirealism or antiscience threads of flurrys of posts here, I'd appreciate some links, so I can be disillusioned.

Oh. And in case that was too dense and rambling for some of you , a summary (as I can't post an MP3 soundbite like on Entertainment Today ):


RESPONSE

AGREE RUST AND THECHIEF STOP

WILFUL SUSPENSION DISBELIEF SUPENSION ACTUAL MEASURE OF INGAME REALISM STOP

INDIVIDUAL DECONSTRUCTION OF UNIVERSE FAR REPEAT FAR MORE DETAILED BUT REPEAT BUT GENERALLY EXCESSIVE FOR ACTUAL USE OF UNIVERSE STOP

REALISM ARGUMENT REGRADING FICTION DOOMED TO SELF CONTRADICTION WITHOUT SOME LEVEL OF WSD STOP

ANTIFUN LOBBY ILLUSIONARY POSSIBLY REPEAT POSSIBLY IMAGINED DUE TO EXTREME OPINION OR AGENDA FILTERS STOP

PLEASE POST CONTRADICTORY EVIDENCE OF UNFUN LOBBY IF NOT OPINION PERSONAL ASSESSMENT LIKELY TO BE BIASED BY AFFECTIVE ASSESSMENT STOP

END RESPONSE

 

[lastbesthope]

I'm sure I've posted about four or five times now, in the short time I've been here, about: "different things break suspension of disbelief for different people", actually but, moving on.

Too true, I was recently rewatching Thundercats and in the episode where where meet the Berbils, I balked at the thought of candy fruit. The realised that for some reason I accepted anthropomorphic felines, only one person actuallly aging in cryosleep, a mystical do everything sword, robot bears was fine, but CANDY FRUIT was what I couldn't accept!? Made me laugh.

LBH

 

[BP]

Yeah - I'm not much for Fruits either!

But that Robot Bear thing seems reasonable - hibernation mode would be energy efficient 8)

 

[EDG]

So, psionics are right out of the window in YTU? As is jump drive, or any other method of FTL? (I'll take it as a given that reactionless drives had to go as well.)

Hard SF doesn't necessarily mean that everything has to be completely realistic. Self-consistency and having fully considered all the implications of the setting is IMO more important than being 100% scientific or realistic.

I think in softer SF, the story is more important and drives the definition of the setting. In harder SF, the technology and setting are more important, and drive the story.

 

[Tobias]

I agree about Virus, that story really was "subconvincing", but after tal-
king to citizens of Naples about living next to an active and extremely
dangerous volcano that will almost certainly erupt within their lifetime,

... and which they could easily stop from erupting ever by a comparably small amount of money?
Yeah, didn't think so.

Furthermore, Zhodani aren't Italians.

 

[rust]

Furthermore, Zhodani aren't Italians.

No, but a certain tendency to ignore even very serious dangers until
they are obvious and imminent - preferably with a fixed date within
the very near future - seems to be common to all humans.

 

[Tobias]

Hard SF doesn't necessarily mean that everything has to be completely realistic.

If you're going to answer serious questions which were directed at others, please do so in context. This one, specifically:

handwaved magic solutions and physically impossible feats that can be easily identified as such

Because jump drive and psionics sure fit that bill.

 

[captainjack23]

Furthermore, Zhodani aren't Italians.

No, but a certain tendency to ignore even very serious dangers until
they are obvious and imminent - preferably with a fixed date within
the very near future - seems to be common to all humans.

And while Zhodani may not be Italians, they are humans (as are Italians, or so my best friend inists ); and humans with an amazingly stable and traditional society.

I'm not Italian, either, but....
Silicon valley -where I live-nestles across and between two very major earthquake faults, guaranteed to let loose in the next twenty five years.

Nuff said ?

 

[Tobias]

No, but a certain tendency to ignore even very serious dangers until they are obvious and imminent - preferably with a fixed date within the very near future - seems to be common to all humans.

Okay, this is the last post (to you) on this.

- The Zhodani government has known - for centuries - the exact time when the EW will hit specific Consulate worlds.
- The EW is not a single disaster affecting a limited number of citizens, but a threat to the entire way of living, their interstellar state, their culture etc. etc. and they know this exactly as well.
- The Zhodani have a monolithic culture and a centralized government with the habit (and means) to launch titanic interstellar projects in very long time frames.
- The measures needed to entirely avoid the ill effects of the EW could be whipped up in a few years for minor costs, and would at worst mildly interrupt life on a few worlds for a few weeks at a time.

If you still think this is reasonable, you're wrong - or very probably just being obstinate for the heck of it. (The fact that you ignored the actual counter-argument in the last post is good indication.) In any case, I won't argue it any further.

 

[Tobias]

I'm not Italian, either, but....
Silicon valley -where I live-nestles across and between two very major earthquake faults, guaranteed to let loose in the next twenty five years.

... which you could easily stop from happening ever by a comparably small amount of money?
Yeah, didn't think so.

(And another one avoids the actual argument... but I'm gonna cut you some slack and assume you read only rust's abridged quote.)

 

[rust]

If you still think this is reasonable, you're wrong ...

I never wrote that I would consider it reasonable, only that:

... I would almost be tempted to accept the Zhodani reaction to the Empress Wave.

... which in my view expresses quite clearly that I do not accept it, but
that I also would not consider such a reaction as entirely impossible -
people, and especially their societies, sometimes make unreasonable
decisions, and I have seen worse ones than the Zhodani's decision in
the real world.

 

[Tobias]

:roll:

 

[captainjack23]

I'm not Italian, either, but....
Silicon valley -where I live-nestles across and between two very major earthquake faults, guaranteed to let loose in the next twenty five years.

... which you could easily stop from happening ever by a comparably small amount of money?
Yeah, didn't think so.

(And another one avoids the actual argument... but I'm gonna cut you some slack and assume you read only rust's abridged quote.)

Nice of you. Actually, as much as anything, a small amount of money spent on earthquake kits would make a tremendous difference in survivability post quake -and very few persons buy them, and no governments have provided them, despite the economic benefit of doing so.


Okay, I reread back a bit. Your argument is, I think, that the Zhodani response as posited is unreasonable due to their detailed forknowlege of the Wave, and the low cost of having protection in place each time it arrived . Correct ?

Pretty good argument actually. Although with human nature- political human nature, I still would give a good if not overwhelming probability of not getting dealt with in time. Or, of a planned solution not working as expected.

Still, the whole wave issue was never a major problem for me by itself, but taken with all the other Post TNE issues I see, it all kind off adds together into a setting thats somthing other than what I wanted to try and explain or deal with. Of course, I feel that way about the whole rebellion MT period, so there you go.

 

[EDG]

Hard SF doesn't necessarily mean that everything has to be completely realistic.

If you're going to answer serious questions which were directed at others, please do so in context.

I wasn't answering any questions, I was making a comment.

 

[Tobias]

Actually, as much as anything, a small amount of money spent on earthquake kits would make a tremendous difference

... by preventing an earthquake, which would totally shatter all of US society, from happening ever? And the US government is not buying them? Wow, they must really hate you.
Seriously, if you think that these limited, regional, possible natural disasters are a valid comparison, I obviously can't help you.

 

[captainjack23]

Actually, as much as anything, a small amount of money spent on earthquake kits would make a tremendous difference

... by preventing an earthquake, which would totally shatter all of US society, from happening ever? And the US government is not buying them? Wow, they must really hate you.
Seriously, if you think that these limited, regional, possible natural disasters are a valid comparison, I obviously can't help you.

You're no doubt right on both counts. Do have fun.

 

[Gaidheal]

To answer the piqued-one ;¬):

Aye, FTL is something I do indeed 'dislike', in as much as I don't think scifi requires it, however, a setting predicated on the mass settlement of solar systems by multiple polities and all in communication with one another dictates some suspension of disbelief on the issue. In other words, if they are not asking me to play or run a game where FTL travel is achieved by beseeching the dark gods and instead provide some fudged pseudo-science which a layman couldn't immediately see as ridiculous, I will leave it be.

Psionics almost never make into any of my games, fantasy or scifi and reactionless drives do indeed get the chop in most instances, especially if I want the players to appreciate the harsh realities of space and physics. If I'm feeling especially 'hard science' so does any sort of 'acceleration damping' technology and 'artificial gravity'.

HTH

 

[Joshua Bell]

Sorry for a delayed comment but:

As the ice melts/boils, it'd be lost to space. Small worlds won't be able to hold their atmospheres in the habitable zone because it's warmer (move Titan to the Earth's orbit, and it'd lose all its atmosphere pretty quickly).

Good article on this topic in this month's SciAm (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-planets-lose-their-atmospheres) - I was surprised to learn that thermal effects are far less important factors for atmospheric leakage than I'd thought. Mars, for example, gets the double-whammy of no magnetic field and being in the line of fire for Jupiter-perturbed main-belt asteroids. Weaker gravity is less important, if I parsed the article correctly.

But I digress. Personally, I'd take the trillion of self-replicating worker robots suggested earlier in the thread, and have them enter "Kumbaya mode" where they interlock hands and presto-change-o turn into a pre-fab orbital habitat. Screw dirtballs & gravity wells! (But that's not a very Traveller sentiment...)