Of packrats and walking armories

[slaughterj]

Slaughterj, how do your players react to such resets?

I guess my approach to being GM is different from yours - rather than doing things out of a necessity for the storyline, I do things because they seem like a realistic thing to happen in the world. So I'm really shy to just emptying the pockets of player characters because I want them to be poor. Instead, I prefer to let them pay for their own mistakes in the hardest possible way.

I do this in Conan, not other fantasy games I run that have a different feel to them. I am clear upfront that the games will run like Conan stories, i.e., fast-paced scenarios focused on action and adventure rather than bookkeeping, that they will be semi-episodic in nature (i.e., we are not doing things day by day, but rather as significant events happen, with negligible "random" encounters), and that they will begin like many Conan stories (pointing out the examples presented in the book, where Conan often starts with next to nothing). I make the focus on the fun of the adventure in any given session and the advancement of the characters, rather than the accumulation of items. Too many games focus on what the PCs get, but in Conan, you don't need to get much to be able to handle scenarios, you don't have to have a magic weapon to fight certain things, you don't need to find spell scrolls to put in your spellbooks, etc. etc., the class advancement takes care of most things on its own and can't be lost. My PCs handle it just fine, as they understand the genre, I clearly communicated the games will be run in that vein (referring to the book examples), and they just have fun with whatever happens. I can understand that some groups might have too much of a mindset or just simply have people who are whiners and would not like to suffer such situations (I was in one group where a long-time gamer said he would quit playing if his character was captured, which was simply a silly and immature action, all those situations do is provide the PCs will a different sort of adventure to play).

 

[Oly]

If you strip your characters too often then your players will get tired of it too.

** snip **

I also think if someone builds a character that revolves around one concept like soilder and you them strip them of armour and weapons every time a game begins they are going to think 'Why bother with this character (or game)'

They'll only have a problem with that method of gaming if they're expecting a game where accumulating money and equipment is par for the course.

As I've said I warned my players in advance of what the tone of Conan would be like and they've accepted it. None of my players have characters that are focussed on particular equipment so it's not like they're suddenly going to be crippled when something is taken from them.

I've not seen my players frustrated by the loss of their equipment, they accept it as just another challenge to overcome and it's also usually the fault of the bad guy they're after at the time so they chalk up another grudge mark against him.

Another aspect of resetting the equipment periodically and making it a very secondary aspect of the game is that it stops power creep setting in. I can let my players get their hands on some powerful items and let them run around with them for a while. Then rather than having to up the opposition or introduce even more powerful items to tempt them with in the future I just press the reset button.

Conan is the only game that I actually play like this, it's not my usual style of GMing at all. However in my opinion it's a major aspect of the atmosphere of the books so when I run Conan that's how I do it.

 

[slaughterj]

Gear
A grappling hook and rope, a staple of adventuring cost about 2sp and weighs 14lbs. That heavy, but more than that, a broken or misplaced (ie. stolen) broadsword can run you 75 times that ammount. Just simply suggesting that a player's weapon is getting dull (see the Armor Damage rules on page 153, but instead maybe take off a point of AP on Crits inflicted by the weapon). There's also the optional weapon breakage rules on page 150, but I've never seen a player more irritade with me as a GM than when I told him, "Well, your axe just broke in half." Talk about a cold stare (lol). Far better to come up with a system of dulling that promotes your characters needing to trade in thier old gear for new gear, or at least attending the weapon smith in the next town and paying for his sword repair services.

Good point, I had my PCs buy new armor after several adventures, saying that it had been pretty well worn out from their escapades, as well as some of the weapons they had picked up along the way (hand-me-downs from some NPCs) were barely serviceable and they would be advised to update them once they had acquired some cash.

 

[slaughterj]

I've warned them when they take feats that revolve around a particular weapon and they know now that they need to be versatile.

My PCs are well warned on that as well, and I don't believe anyone has taken weapon focus as a result (and thus obviously not weapon specialization as well). Those feats are ones that would be virtually always useful in DnD, etc., and might otherwise be top picks, but not in Conan Some things are always top picks though, like power attack, toughness, eyes of the cat, fleet-footed, etc.

 

[Krushnak]

in my game my mate really gets the attititude you have to take. he has imp unarmed, grapple and trip, power attack and combat expertise. he the swiss army knife of soldiers and is a really successful and fun character for the player to play whether hes in scale male with a halberd or in a loin cloth using nothing but his fists he can take on anything.

2 feats i generally take myself whenever playing any d20 games i imp unarmed and iron will. just in case.

 

[Sutek]

He had it all worked out and was a little miffed when I announced that at the begiining of the game he had lost most of his goods and was reduced to a pauper. For a second I thought he was going to quit! Still, his character needed to be hungry for the scenario to work out so I told him thats the way it was and we had a great time afterward.

While it's true that it ain't D&D, he needn't have lost everything to start off hungry. If he's got all that detail in his character sheet, and you really want him stating off hungry, let him make the shoice to sell it off or not, or at least let him know that's his best option. Another consolation might be to offer him XP for losing the detailed items he'd come up with.

You see, after all his efforts, he was just trying to develop a personality for his character. Developing a personality is what RPGing is all about, and gutting a character sheet just to further your story isn't necessarily the idea way to go. It worked out, but what if it hadn't? What if you'd had to take up gaming time to barter for what stayed and what went? Too much effort.

As it stands, I'd have been pretty ticked off, but what you can do now is have that stuff turn up. The next shop he goes into could have that eagle pommeled sword or his blue velvet wineskin. Then he's got a personal quest to find his old items and figure out who stole/sold them in the process. :wink:

 

[slaughterj]

He had it all worked out and was a little miffed when I announced that at the begiining of the game he had lost most of his goods and was reduced to a pauper. For a second I thought he was going to quit! Still, his character needed to be hungry for the scenario to work out so I told him thats the way it was and we had a great time afterward.

While it's true that it ain't D&D, he needn't have lost everything to start off hungry. If he's got all that detail in his character sheet, and you really want him stating off hungry, let him make the shoice to sell it off or not, or at least let him know that's his best option. Another consolation might be to offer him XP for losing the detailed items he'd come up with.

You see, after all his efforts, he was just trying to develop a personality for his character. Developing a personality is what RPGing is all about, and gutting a character sheet just to further your story isn't necessarily the idea way to go. It worked out, but what if it hadn't? What if you'd had to take up gaming time to barter for what stayed and what went? Too much effort.

As it stands, I'd have been pretty ticked off, but what you can do now is have that stuff turn up. The next shop he goes into could have that eagle pommeled sword or his blue velvet wineskin. Then he's got a personal quest to find his old items and figure out who stole/sold them in the process. :wink:

I tend to let PCs know in advance if they are making characters and those characters will start off captured, robbed, etc., so they don't waste time developing equipment lists.

 

[Baduin]

But it can be fun when he spots later his special bag or whatever item on some thug, or on an NPC he needs to befriend.

 

[slaughterj]

But it can be fun when he spots later his special bag or whatever item on some thug, or on an NPC he needs to befriend.

True enough, you do lose that if you don't let them make the equipment lists to start, but in the majority of cases, most equipment is generic and not tied to the character, and with some flexibility you can always say to the PC "hey, you recognize the bag that thug is carrying as your own from before" and not much has to still be in it that was the character's.

 

[sbarrie]

Spent gold = xp
Off course, this works better with a geometric xp progression, so with the standard xp table i adjust the formula to this:

Spent Gold / level = xp

I used the same formula when I started!

(possibly with a coefficient)

 

[thulsa]

Maybe equipment makes too much difference in the rules.

Plate armor surely makes a world of difference.

- thulsa

 

[Clovenhoof]

A suit of Plate Armour costs more than a hundred beautiful slave girls. I intend to keep that out of my party's reach for quite a while.
Come to think of it, I am using a slightly different - more savage, less civilized - setting, where even _with_ the necessary loose change the characters will have to be lucky to _find_ someone who could make them the armour.

Same goes for good weapons, by the way. I already love the way how swords cost 10 times more than in other D20 games. ^^

Since I haven't played Conan yet I can only go from other game experiences:
- as a player, I've always been reluctant to specialize in one piece of gear, be it in D&D or Shadowrun, since I don't want it to depend on the whims of a GM if I am able to fight or not. Fellow players have often looked at me as if I was talking Swahili when I said I didn't want to take Weapon Focus.
- as a GM, I usually let the chars keep the toys I handed out, except if an item is breaking the game, then it has to go. Basically the players know, the more of an effort and/or wait it was to get something, the less likely I am to take it away from them without dire need.

For the Conan game, I will try to make it clear that the game is not about accumulating wealth and stuff, and that any riches they acquire are there for spending.
I loved slaughterj's line,

that this is not like DnD where you accumulate crap and need it to get by

:lol:

EDIT
P.S.:
How much does cash weigh? How many SP in a pound?

 

[grtbrt]

I tend to use the old english/norman weights values as a start point .

a silver piece about equal to a Shilling so 20 of them to a pound-weight & value and 24 bronze pieces to a shilling (yes I know that they all should be silver ,but the bronze aspect fits in with the different levels of society in the conan world)

this fits in nicely with the costs and weights

 

[Clovenhoof]

That would be like six pounds of silver for a broadsword? Of course you can handle it any way you like in your game, but if you want to take the real middle ages as an example, I am afraid you are off.
I think a silver piece is much less than a shilling. More likely a penny, actually. Meanwhile I have opted for 1sp ~ 1 penny (d), so there are 240 pennies to a pound (12d = 1s; 20s=1l).

I know that in medieval England, a labourer earned about 1 penny per day, and I think the Conan rpg also states 1sp/day somewhere. So deducting sundays and holidays (which there were plenty), an unskilled labourer earned maybe 1 pound per year, which was enough to live but not to make any savings.
Moreover, the medieval penny also was often broken into four pieces, 1/4d being the smallest monetary unit. If a sp was a shilling and accordingly weighed around 24 grams, it would hardly be the smallest unit but smaller coins would be minted.

So all that points to a sp weighing something in the vicinity of 2 grams. Of course Hyborian pounds are certainly not exactly the same as English (going back to Roman) pounds, but it should be close enough to make the comparison.

Last not least, I don't like the idea of a man not being able to carry his own cash. I experienced that before in a different game, where gold was worth just twice as much as silver, and two saddle bags full of gold would not even last a year of decent living (not even talking about HIGH living). So I'm wary of high coin weights.

The historical Germanic weight unit, by the way, was the mark, consisting of 8 ounces which varied by region and era. Typically, a mark was somewhere between 220 and 330 grams. Just an aside to show how complicated you can make monetary units.

In a chart I saw in a museum, typical costs for various items were given in grams of silver. A sword varied from 120g to 300g depending on the region, for example, much like a horse, whereas you could get several live chickens for a small coin (1-2g).

 

[Ankhe]

Im lucky enough to have players that see the high living rule in the spirit that it was intended, so when the players hit the town feeling rich I have an enforced getting trashed interlude. I let them keep gear for the most part and allow them to go over titos trading post and grab a couple of common bits if they want for memory of the money they used to have, you know feathered headdress/ 10 foot poles... crap mostly but its good. They lose it just as fast so its never a big deal.

One day we had an entire session based around the party barbarian getting his stolen hat (worth like 1sp) back.

 

[rgrove0172]

We've only begun a new campaign but already the difference in Conan's approach to wealth has had an effect. In other FRPG the accumulation of wealth has a real in-game advantage. Players wanting to buy every more powerful weapons, armor, scrolls or whatever, bound after each new treasure or prospect there of. In Conan, quickly the players realized that wealth is almost abstract for the most part, in that it seems to have its greatest effect out-of-game when the characters are supposedly squandering it. Suddenly its not much of a motivator anymore. When the GM tries to persuade the group to embark on a particular quest with a treasure dangled in front of them it doesnt have the same draw. "We're going to lose it all hoaring and drinking anyway, whats the point? was the comment made by one player, in jest of course and they did proceed to go after it but the point was made.

This is a dramatic change from your more conventional games and the players probably need to have it presented to them before play begins and appropriate changes in expectation made to avoid dissapointment.

 

[Trodax]

This is a dramatic change from your more conventional games and the players probably need to have it presented to them before play begins and appropriate changes in expectation made to avoid dissapointment.

Yes, absolutely. When I started my last game I told the players beforehand:

"OK, you need to know that Conan is not about collecting money and equipment. You will gain such things, but it will almost always be lost quickly (I then told them how the Rule of High Living worked). However, it is absolutely OK if your characters are greedy bastards who are out to collect loot and riches, that's quite appropriate for the genre, actually. But out-of-game, always remember that that is not what the game is about."

My players took this well, and the adventure we then played was about stealing the greatest jewel in the world (The Tower of the Elephant), although they knew that it wouldn't make their characters rich in the end. I really do think it's important that the players are aware of this beforehand, though.

 

[slaughterj]

I made it clear to my players, especially the ones I had not run stuff with before. But I don't know that *most* games are oriented toward "get more loot, get better stuff", though of course the big one out there, DnD, has that orientation. Many others do not, e.g., most any supers game, Star Wars and some other scifi, etc. And others are like Conan, in that there is a fairly limited scale of what you can get with wealth, e.g., in Conan you can buy a masterwork weapon but that's about it, in westerns you can some more guns but that's about it, etc. But because so many have played DnD or various "knock-offs" (Palladium, RuneQuest, etc. etc.) so much, their experiences may have affected their understanding.

 

[Trodax]

Ah, yes that is true slaughterj. The big risk for my group was that Conan is d20-based, and the only d20 game they've played before is good old D&D, so they were expecting more of the same. I'm sure their expectations would have been quite different if I'd run a Conan game using some other ruleset.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Well, in most RPGs I played to far, money is a rather important factor, though that may also depend on the style of the campaign.
Here's a brief list:

- D&D: obvious. The game, as it has been put on the first page of this thread, is about "accumulating crap that you need to get by".
- DSA/TDE: there is no magical gear, so the equipment curve is pretty shallow, but due to bad economic design, money is not worth much, so you need pretty much all the cash you can get just to make a living.
- Star Wars (West End): buy upgrades for your ship, or even a better ship, it is a bottomless pit really.
- Shadowrun: weapons and armour are not that expensive, but cyberware, cyberdecks, programs, vehicles, magical foci etc can really eat up your resources if you want to stay SOTA. (Though magically active characters, especially Shamans, can get by with very little money)
- Lord of the Rings (decipher): here you don't need a lot of money, standard gear is affordable and special gear cannot be bought anyway. However, special items (like an Elven sword found in a troll cache) can be major quest rewards. As opposed to Conan, special items here are definitely keepers (imagine Gandalf losing Glamdring and saying "oh, never mind").
- Earthdawn: most of all you need money to pay for your training when you want to advance to a new level. This is pretty unique.

That's pretty much all I can think of right now.