Not smuggling - declaring banned items when entering high law level

[AnotherDilbert]

You may want to go and look up vegan district. It's a client state, not part of the Imperium. So it would seem that's not true either.

No:

Within the lmperium is the Vegan Autonomous District, an area inhabited (under lmperial sovereignty) by a non-human race.

Would you also try to argue that Capital/Core (Sylean Worlds) is not a part of the Imperium?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yet - if that is the case, then why are these so called provinces permitted to impose a death penalty while others do not, and yet other worlds are permitted to have rules and regulations that strip Imperial Citizens of certain rights?

Somewhere, there is a disconnect...

Sorry, I do not see the problem.

The Imperium can devolve whatever it feels like to the members, and as a matter of principle most things are. Imperial Law is always supreme and cannot be overridden by local law.

Local law cannot strip anyone of Imperial rights (Article 1), but the Imperium does not have a Bill of Rights so there are few, if any, Imperial rights. Imperial citizens certainly do not have a right to not be executed.

But if jaywalking is prohibited by local law, and whether people are executed or fined for it, is of no interest to the Imperium.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You continue to ignore the other part of this. Imperial law specifically excludes planetary jurisdiction. You know, all the other citations that state planetary laws are Supreme on the planet outside of imperial territory.

I don't think so:

The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world. Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the Defense of all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial Law.

Imperial law is supreme and has jurisdiction everywhere, but is rather limited in scope. The locals can rule themselves as they see fit, under Imperial law.

Its rather clear, to me at least, the laws have overlap, and while imperial laws are Supreme, they are neither omnipresent nor does the imperium decide on a whim what laws to uphold when and where. If you look at history you will see kings and emperors who did this to their subject nobles and lost their lives over that when they were overthrown.

Article 1 states that Imperial Law is supreme and has jurisdiction everywhere. If there is an overlap, local law cannot overrule Imperial law.
Article 8 explicitly gives the Emperor the right to change all of this at a whim. As far as I know it has not been done, yet...

The citation you have there clearly states planetary law is Supreme on a planet outside of the imperial star port.

No, it states that Imperial Law is always supreme and that planetary law can have no jurisdiction over "Designated Imperial Possessions". Imperial Law or jurisdiction is in no way limited.

But it then provides the contradiction for space. Planets rule extends out to 100d, but imperial law applies to spacecraft traveling anywhere. And therein lies the crux of the argument. Two rules in the books that contradict.

I still don't see the problem. Imperial law is supreme, the locals may regulate whatever they wish otherwise. If Imperial law states that only Imperial law applies to starports and spacecraft under way, then only Imperial law applies.

 

[HalC]

"The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world. "

So, the right to life is not recognized throughout the imperium? One world may see fit to create a law that is anti-blasphemy, inflicting a death without so much as a trial, and the Imperium can do nothing?

The key phrase might be that the right to life is not a right that the Imperium can bestow, but what is missing is context. Prior to the declaration of the warrant, the citizens of Sylea were citizens who had rights before the creation of the Third Imperium. Diminishing those rights at the time of the change-over likely would not have led to a bloodless coup as written by the author. Saying that there is no bill of rights ignore human nature and the fact that there was a federation of Sylea from which the Third Imperium emerged from without the hint of a revolution. That body of citizenry would have had their rights spelled out. Just as the fledgling United States based its common law assumptions/precedence upon English common law with the added right to a presumption of innocence - so too would the Sylean members have expected that their rights etc, as enshrined by the articles of cofederation, would be equally protected under Third Imperial law.

Again, the absolutism of the Emperor's power to destroy a world without recourse by the world's inhabitants is remarkable in light of the history as depicted in T4, as well as the proclivity of modern man to expect that they are to give up their ability to kill on a whim in exchange for the right that no one can kill them on a whim. This concept or principle usually is enshrined as law, and often enshrined in constitutions.

Now for the bad news. I seriously doubt you can get a single writer of any book series, let alone for rpg supplements, to devote time to creating the entirety of a legal system or foundational charter of rights or even a full fledged constitution. The word count would be excessive.

So, it is agreed that no one ever wrote up anything on the nature of the actual laws of the Imperium in its entirety in any of the Traveller incarnations. It took T4 to even give us a hint of the Warrant of Restoration, and even there, we do not see what rights there are to be granted to Imperial Citizens, let alone protection, privileges.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, the right to life is not recognized throughout the imperium? One world may see fit to create a law that is anti-blasphemy, inflicting a death without so much as a trial, and the Imperium can do nothing?

Yes?

Basically the Imperium does not rule or have laws about people, but member states.

The key phrase might be that the right to life is not a right that the Imperium can bestow, but what is missing is context. Prior to the declaration of the warrant, the citizens of Sylea were citizens who had rights before the creation of the Third Imperium. Diminishing those rights at the time of the change-over likely would not have led to a bloodless coup as written by the author.

The Imperium can proclaim rights, but they have very few. The principle is member province self-rule.

Nothing in the warrant is formulated as an individual right, but as a ban in government activity. Example:

Chattel slavery shall not exist within the Imperium, nor in any territory directly under its control, nor on any member world, nor within any territory with which a member world shall have dealings.

Saying that there is no bill of rights ignore human nature ...

Human nature? "Nature, red in tooth and claw"?

Humans are relatively aggressive and tend to kill each other, and other species, in job lots if they see a reason.

Neither nature, nor human nature, gives you any right to not be killed.

... and the fact that there was a federation of Sylea from which the Third Imperium emerged from without the hint of a revolution. That body of citizenry would have had their rights spelled out.

Many states, and especially states in history, have no individual rights.

Any rights the citizens had in the Sylean Federation they probably still have in the Sylean Worlds, but they were not given any additional rights as citizens of the Imperium.

Just as the fledgling United States based its common law assumptions/precedence upon English common law with the added right to a presumption of innocence - so too would the Sylean members have expected that their rights etc, as enshrined by the articles of cofederation, would be equally protected under Third Imperial law.

Yes:

No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial Law.

Just as the American colonies were ruled by English law, the Indian colonies were ruled by local law. So people from the American colonies shouldn't have any expectation of, say, Virginia law being used or having any jurisdiction over any Indian colony. And I expect Virginians would not have appreciated the Empire trying to impose say rights of cows that might have made sense in Hindu India.

Again, the absolutism of the Emperor's power to destroy a world without recourse by the world's inhabitants is remarkable in light of the history as depicted in T4, as well as the proclivity of modern man to expect that they are to give up their ability to kill on a whim in exchange for the right that no one can kill them on a whim. This concept or principle usually is enshrined as law, and often enshrined in constitutions.

That is strange in a nation-state, but not very strange in an Empire. As late as the thirties the British Empire had the doctrine of bombing any non-compliant colonies to submission IIRC.

In most of history law is imposed by rulers, not agreed upon by the people. If the law is acceptable to the people it lessens the risk of rebellion and makes the rulers life easier, so they have an indirect say. Generally it is understood that if you rebel the response will be brutal.

I agree that "they are to give up their ability to kill on a whim in exchange for the right that no one can kill them on a whim", except that that does not generally apply to governments. Capital punishment were long, and is still, practiced in some democracies.

Now for the bad news. I seriously doubt you can get a single writer of any book series, let alone for rpg supplements, to devote time to creating the entirety of a legal system or foundational charter of rights or even a full fledged constitution.

Agreed.

 

[phavoc]

You may want to go and look up vegan district. It's a client state, not part of the Imperium. So it would seem that's not true either.

No:

Within the lmperium is the Vegan Autonomous District, an area inhabited (under lmperial sovereignty) by a non-human race.

Would you also try to argue that Capital/Core (Sylean Worlds) is not a part of the Imperium?

So you are switching citations, eh? Ok. From the Wiki:

After the pyrrhic victory over the Solomani at Terra in 1002, the Imperium found that it could not completely conquer and absorb the Solomani Sphere.

The Imperial high command decided to create the Vegan Autonomous District to act as a counterweight to the remnants of the Solomani Confederation. The Vegans have complete internal control over their district, but free passage is guaranteed for Imperial citizens and goods. Although many factors have contributed to the present peace and stability along the Solomani Rim, it cannot be denied that the creation of the Vegan Autonomous District has achieved its original purpose.

So, by definition the VAD is NOT Imperial territory. Ergo using it as an example of Imperial law is akin to using Hiver's or K'Kree or Aslan within their own governmental borders. And this brings up a valid point - which version are you going to use as the defacto set? Your first cited the Wiki. Which I did, too. You then cited the original CT supplement, which states "under imperial sovereignty". So what does that mean exactly? Since we are arguing about contradictions you've just introduced another one.

Let's go further and find some more data, shall we?

Vegan Autonomous District

A region of space controlled by a single centralised government run by the Vegans, a roughly humanoid race originating on Muan Gwi ( Vega / Solomani Rim 1717).

After its pyrrhic victory in the Solomani Rim War, the Imperium found that it could not continue its advance into the Solomani Sphere, and declared an indefinite armistice. The Imperial high command created the Vegan Autonomous District to act as a counterweight to the remnants of the Solomani Confederation. The Vegans have complete internal control over their District, but free passage is guaranteed for Imperial citizens and goods.

Although many factors have contributed to the present peace and stability along the Solomani Rim, it cannot be denied that the creation of the District has achieved its original purpose.

The worlds of the District are under a single, centralised government. State power is contained in a civil service, chosen and promoted by competitive examinations. Within this common state, the Vegans are culturally diverse. Society is divided into hundreds of different tuhuir, which might be roughly translated as culture, philosophy, or tao. Each tuhuir has its own customs and traditions, and its own interpretation of the proper way to live. Tuhuir are not hereditary; a Vegan chooses to join one after a period of search. The civil service which governs the District is a tuhuir which oversees and mediates among all the other tuhuir.

(SUPP-10, 1108; SUPP-11: p30, 1107; MT-ENCYC: p45, 1120)

So here we have CT and MT information. So lets go to the supplements themselves:

Within the lmperium is the Vegan Autonomous District, an area inhabited (under lmperial sovereignty) by a non-human race. The rest of the sector is ruled by the Solomani Confederati6n. an interstellar state hostile to the Imperium. (CT-SUPP10-p4)

The Vegans received the jump drive about -6000, from Vilani-influenced traders, and colonized several nearby worlds before being absorbed by the First Imperium. They were severely restricted under Vilani rule, as were all races who resisted being
integrated into the rigid Vilani culture. Thus, they welcomed Terran victory in the Interstellar Wars and the advent of the Rule of Man. The Vegan Polity prospered in the Rule of Man and survived the Long Night largely intact, but was broken into
individual planetary states by the Third Imperium, which allowed no threats to its sovereignty. Under the Solomani, the Vegans were again restricted, and human governors were installed on all Vegan worlds. After the Solomani Rim War, the present Vegan Autonomous District was formed as a counterweight to the Solomani. (CT=SUPP10-p7)

Vegans were an independent entity. The Imperium was exhausted by the time Terra fell, which is why the Solmani Rim still exists. VAD was created by the Imperium, but it's self-governing. Imperial ships and subjects have the right to travel and trade, but the local laws still apply - not IMPERIAL laws, but VAD laws.

The emphasis in the paragraph above is also another example where the Imperium does not allow multi-star states, per the citation above "...broken into individual planetary states by the Third Imperium, which allowed no threats to its sovereignty". At both face and implied value this states that there are no multi-star states that are within the Imperium because it is not allowed.

However, to be fair, here is additional information that, once again, is apparently contradictory (in Traveller? golly-gee! Who would have thunk?).

The Esperance subsector is not a governmental unit; its worlds are governed from other subsectors. Ludmilla and Esperance (the world) have large Vegan minorities. The nation of Waothan on Esperance, with a third of the planet's population,
is 95% Vegan. Attempts to integrate these two worlds into the Vegan District have long been a source of tension, and two recent events have intensified the problem: Waothan has applied to the Emperor for permission to join the Vegan District, and
a human supremacist party has recently come to power on Ludmilla. (CT-SUPP10-p18)

and

Most of this subsector (Vega) and the Esperance subsector compose the Vegan Autonomous District. Most worlds in the District are inhabited almost entirely by Vegans, except for Shulgiasu, Bellerophon, and Flanders. Vegans are unable to live on these high-gravity worlds, although humans find them habitable. Merganser, important for its resources, also has a human population; Sithuan Hsarr is a recent experimental colony, worked by Vegans living under artificial gravity. The entire Depot system is devoted to an Imperial naval depot, and its population consists entirely of naval personnel. In peacetime, a depot's main function is research; there the navy develops and tests new ship prototypes. In war, a depot is able to supply, maintain, and repair a large fraction of the Imperial fleet. (CT-SUPP10-p19)

and

Although scholars continue to debate the wisdom of invading Terra, some claiming that the battle was a marginal if not pyrrhic victory for the Imperium, the general consensus is that the war as a whole was a major victory for the Imperium. A
substantial amount of the Solomani Sphere was reabsorbed by the Imperium, and a vigorous Vegan Autonomous District was set up to oversee lmperial interests along the new border. While the Solomani Confederation continues to exist, the
central tenet of the Solomani Movement is largely discredited. In fact, with the strong lmperial presence along the border, the Solomani Confederation seems to have abandoned any plans to resume the conflict in the near future, concentrating instead on reviving its claims to certain worlds in the more loosely organized Aslan Hierate. (CT-SUPP11-p21)

In this case we find an Imperial naval depot in another polity. But VAD is a special case. It exists within Imperial borders, is not a client-state per se, but acts as both an independent state and part of the Imperium. So which one of us is "right"? I will profess that I believe the VAD is not a good example of a multi-system state that is considered Imperial. Why? Because it's very label - Vegan Autonomous District - implies it is a special case. Among the many thousands of other systems within the Imperium there are no further examples. So a single (or even two or three) examples does not make a standard. Ergo it's not allowed. Even the CT literature I cited above states the same thing.

Which brings us back to the original point - where do local laws begin and Imperial end? For that we should look further. Here is the general definition of Imperial space. Keep in mind it's meant to be a rather large and sweeping definition:

The lmperium is best considered to rule the space that separates the stars rather than the worlds themselves. Individual worlds are left to their own devices, providing they pay their taxes, acknowledge the power of the Imperium, and obey the
basic laws it promulgates. The lmperium wields power in space, protecting trade, encouraging travel and commerce, and controlling diplomatic relations. lmperial power is present on worlds in the form of consulates, bureaucratic offices, and
bases; occasionally larger enclaves of lmperial power are placed where they can enhance the empire's strength. )CT-SUPP11-p6)

Here we see that the Imperium takes on the yoke of running the imperium, but leaves the nuts and bolts and specifics up to the individual worlds. This is emphasized by the statement "Imperial power is present on worlds in the form of consulates..." By that statement alone it acknowledges that worlds are powers unto themselves and the Imperium must deal with them as it does a foreign power. Which, on the surface, is no different than how other governments work today (with the exception of not needing consulates). There are multiple levels of government, and the smaller jurisdictions are allowed to set their own laws and enforce said laws so long as they fall within the overarching laws. If you read up on the Psionic laws you'll see similar citations of local laws suppressing psionics even while there were Imperium-wide rules and orders being issued.

Going back to the original source, the first LBB, we find the first instance of the extra territorality rules being cited:

Starports are further described in the starport chart. In many cases, starports will be accompanied by naval or scout bases, and will have a wide range of facilities. In nearly all cases, a planet will consider that a starport is extraterritorial, and
not subject to local law, but will also enforce strict entrance and exit controls. (CT-LBB3, p1)

Note: Each law level includes all prohibitions and conditions of levels numbered lower than it. Thus, shotguns are prohibited at all law levels from 7 higher. In addition to weapons and arms controls, law levels indicate the general throw for police or enforcement harassment for violations. Thus, a person on a world of law level 4 would have a saving throw of 4 or more to avoid arrest when encountering an enforcement agent such as a policeman or customs agent. Law level does not apply to persons and ships at a starport, as local laws do not apply in such areas. )CT-LBB3, p7)

Finally, I found this gem.
At times, the referee (or the players) will find combinations of features which may seem contradictory or unreasonable. Common sense should rule in such cases; either the players or referee will generate a rationale which explains the situation, or
an alternative description should be made. (CT-LBB3-p8)

This. Just this. Common sense should rule when things seem contradictory or unreasonable. While this paragraph was listed in the world generation section, I think it works well being applied across all of Traveller. As cat thinks, "If i fits, I sits", so should players and referees think "that doesn't make sense. let's find a more reasonable way so we can have fun playing".

In my response to you I tried to cite the entire section. I find that cherry picking a single sentence is not the best method of discourse when it has gotten to this level. I abhor the religious zealots who cite a very specific passage, but if you take the entire section the quotation loses much, or all of it's point. And, for the record, I'm not accusing you of being either a zealot (or religious!) or anything else. As you can see in my response above that I also cited things that would weaken my argument. I haven't done this sort of research to respond to a board posting in, well, probably ever. While it's been interesting to delve back into the archives, ultimately I think the other readers are probably kind of tired of this. I don't see you or I changing our positions no matter how much material is cited. Therefore I think it's fair to say it's a draw. People can take what they want from the discussion and apply it how they want.

TL;DR - make your own choices. It's a game.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Within the lmperium is the Vegan Autonomous District, an area inhabited (under lmperial sovereignty) by a non-human race.

So you are switching citations, eh? Ok.

Switching from what? The Vegans are not mentioned in the Warrant of Restoration, so I can hardly use that?

That is all the quote I need. "Under Imperial sovereignty" explicitly means the Vegans is not an independent state, but a part of the Imperium.

The name "Vegan Autonomous District" is an obvious play on self-ruling districts in Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_district


If you want to use the traveller wiki as a source, the Vegan Autonomous District is explicitly listed as a member of the Imperium (along with many other interstellar members): http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Third_Imperium#Member_States:_1105


TravelletMap uses the code ImVd as a part of the Imperium, not the client state code CsIm.


The other quotes you provide are not conclusive either way as far as I can see.

Example:

The Imperial high command decided to create the Vegan Autonomous District to act as a counterweight to the remnants of the Solomani Confederation. The Vegans have complete internal control over their district, but free passage is guaranteed for Imperial citizens and goods. Although many factors have contributed to the present peace and stability along the Solomani Rim, it cannot be denied that the creation of the Vegan Autonomous District has achieved its original purpose.

So, by definition the VAD is NOT Imperial territory.

I do not see how you came to that conclusion.

That the VAD was set up by the Imperium hardly qualifies it as an independent state.
"The Vegans have complete internal control over their district, ..." and so have all other members of the Imperium. Note that it specifies only internal control meaning it is limited autonomy, not sovereignty.


I can't help to conclude that the Vegan Autonomous District is a part of the Imperium, and that interstellar members are explicitly allowed by the Warrant of Restoration.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In my response to you I tried to cite the entire section. I find that cherry picking a single sentence is not the best method of discourse when it has gotten to this level.

Sorry, I find it useful to quote at least a significant part of the original post to at leat direct my answer in the right general direction.

It is very difficult to conduct a detailed discussion without answering specific points, and it helps to break up the wall of text that might occur otherwise.

As an example this post quoting just the part of your larger post I wanted to address.

 

[HalC]

It isn't that I've grown tired per se, but I realize due to the accumulated mass of words crafted over a span of 2 score years, that there are times where two people or two camps of thought can reach two honestly held opinions and not be convinced of the arguments presented by the other. I applaude that it has been respectful and intend to keep it that way...

Article 7 is one of those things that discusses aspects of laws and local laws, but then weasels out by adding "subject to Imperial laws" - which are left unsaid.

The Warrant of Restoration is the basis for my reading into the fief situation as detailed in T5, that the fief has the same benefits as starport authority governed starports. The way I read it, local governments may not hinder access to starport or manors held by the Imperium insofar as the egress or entrance to such territory is Imperial in nature. The interface between Imperial and local territory MAY be controlled by the local government..

I've been reading more about Milieu Zero just to try and get a feel for what Sylea was like prior to becoming the Third Imperium. With each world added to the Federation, came the worsening "gridlock" that was leading to the downfall as seen by Duke Cleon. The intent was to try and save the Federation from itself.

So what rights did the Federation enjoy prior to the Third Imperium, it doesn't much say. That the Federation was successful for hundreds of years, and was expanding was a given. What rights did the citizens have, if there were any citizens - is a question worth asking. I did find a statement that the noble of a world had to be a citizen, but that now begs the question of whether or not they are the only citizens. The but about swearing an oath implies to me that the answer is no, but that is an inference, not an absolute.

 

[Condottiere]

1. I tend to think of the Vegan Autonomous District as similar to Israel during the reign of Herod the Great: as long as the Vegans pay lip service to Imperium interests, they can go about their business.

2. Imperium law and interests supercede planetary law and interests, if and when the Imperium makes the effort to exert itself; the velvet glove tends to be cheaper than the iron fist.

3. I'd say any attempt at secession would merit immediate attention and reaction.

 

[Anonymous]

1. I tend to think of the Vegan Autonomous District as similar to Israel during the reign of Herod the Great: as long as the Vegans pay lip service to Imperium interests, they can go about their business.

What are they allowed to eat? Vegan and kosher, or some combination?

 

[baithammer]

What are they allowed to eat? Vegan and kosher, or some combination?

Depending on the Imperium's interest, most likely Halal.

 

[Old School]

Wow, this one went off the rails, didn’t it? I’d suggest one of you volunteer to run a play by email traveller campaign to put your passion for the game to better use.

 

[HalC]

Wow, this one went off the rails, didn’t it? I’d suggest one of you volunteer to run a play by email traveller campaign to put your passion for the game to better use.

If by "play by mail" you accept "play by VTT software via the net" as a possibility, one can always play via Fantasy Grounds".

I could run a Traveller campaign via FG, where players could use the demo version of Fantasy Grounds (FG), at no cost to them, but I don't own a copy of the Mongoos e Traveller 1st edition ruleset. I can however run a GURPS ruleset with Traveller. You would only need to know how to roleplay, but, that's probably a nonstarter, as this is a Mongoose Traveller board.

 

[Linwood]

Wow, this one went off the rails, didn’t it? I’d suggest one of you volunteer to run a play by email traveller campaign to put your passion for the game to better use.

I second that motion. Interesting discussion, but it feels like it belongs in another thread....