No Ship Design Process
- Thread starter Jeff Hopper
- Start date
vladthemad
Mongoose
The core rule book states:
However, none are vital or necessary to the game and
are presented only for your continued enjoyment – you
can explore a huge amount of the galaxy with this Core
Rulebook alone!
Without ship design rules you're missing a key element to the above statement. You have rules for alien life forms, system and sector creation, trade, and just about everything else anyone could possibly need to create their own campaign...but you take out the one that players enjoy the most, ship design.
However, none are vital or necessary to the game and
are presented only for your continued enjoyment – you
can explore a huge amount of the galaxy with this Core
Rulebook alone!
Without ship design rules you're missing a key element to the above statement. You have rules for alien life forms, system and sector creation, trade, and just about everything else anyone could possibly need to create their own campaign...but you take out the one that players enjoy the most, ship design.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
So you couldn't use the ships given to "explore a huge amount of the galaxy"?vladthemad said:
If one believes you do need the ship design rules to do so, then you are right. I am just not sure I do believe they are needed when many ships are already given for our use.
Not to say I think the ship design rules are not important. Heck there are lots of fans who do nothing but play with the ship design rules building new ships or tweaking the old designs. So I would never say they are not important, nor that for you, vladthemad, they are not so important the game feels incomplete without them. I just think with the ships given their statement still holds.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
There are probably two basic types of sickbay, ad hoc, which adds the equipment, and specified, which you pay for tearing everything out, and installing the equipment.
TrippyHippy
Emperor Mongoose
Classic Traveller did indeed come in three books....in a single box, of course!
I do wonder how the interaction of rules on the RPGsuite site might colour peoples opinion of where the ship creation rules should be in the future however. If they have it there as a core thing then people will have an expectation of it being in the Traveller Core rules too.
I do not accept the premise of having more than one core rule book, I have to say. The game is still being marketed as being readily playable from one book alone. I do have sympathy with the collecting of all ship design rules into one place however, and do note that this is what is already the case with the vehicle design rules as it stands.
Do we need to have ship design in the Core Rules book? Honestly, no. As someone else said, it's actually quite a complex part of the current core rules - and personally, I always tend to opt for the pregen ships in most Traveller games I have ever run to avoid that complexity. I recognise the fun of creating your own ship, bit by bit, but I question whether it is entirely essential to a beginner player.
On the whole, therefore I am between ambivalent and loosely in support of saving it all for a single High Guard book.
I do wonder how the interaction of rules on the RPGsuite site might colour peoples opinion of where the ship creation rules should be in the future however. If they have it there as a core thing then people will have an expectation of it being in the Traveller Core rules too.
I do not accept the premise of having more than one core rule book, I have to say. The game is still being marketed as being readily playable from one book alone. I do have sympathy with the collecting of all ship design rules into one place however, and do note that this is what is already the case with the vehicle design rules as it stands.
Do we need to have ship design in the Core Rules book? Honestly, no. As someone else said, it's actually quite a complex part of the current core rules - and personally, I always tend to opt for the pregen ships in most Traveller games I have ever run to avoid that complexity. I recognise the fun of creating your own ship, bit by bit, but I question whether it is entirely essential to a beginner player.
On the whole, therefore I am between ambivalent and loosely in support of saving it all for a single High Guard book.
Bense
Cosmic Mongoose
I've already said I would prefer to see a ship design system in the basic book, but I have to admit I've never seen one of my players design a ship. I've seen them want to modify their ship and using some of the design rules to do so, but creating entirely new ships has been the Referee's job in my games, just like the world design rules are pretty much only used by the Ref (I've never had players generate their own subsectors either - homeworlds sometimes, but not more than that).vladthemad said:
We, obviously, knew this would be a controversial decision, and we fair agonised over it.
In the end, it was not page count that forced the issue, but the determination that we would make this edition the best we possibly could. Any ship design system in the Core book would, by necessity, be a cut down/watered down set of mechanics that would never cover everything anyway (see 1e!).
By concentrating everything in High Guard, we could keep the design rules all in one place, and focus on their accessibility and utility without having to worry about a section of them being carved out.
Basically, we thought Traveller would be a better game overall if the Core was kept simple and High Guard held everything ship construction-related. That was the winning argument - what would make for the better game.
In the end, it was not page count that forced the issue, but the determination that we would make this edition the best we possibly could. Any ship design system in the Core book would, by necessity, be a cut down/watered down set of mechanics that would never cover everything anyway (see 1e!).
By concentrating everything in High Guard, we could keep the design rules all in one place, and focus on their accessibility and utility without having to worry about a section of them being carved out.
Basically, we thought Traveller would be a better game overall if the Core was kept simple and High Guard held everything ship construction-related. That was the winning argument - what would make for the better game.
TrippyHippy
Emperor Mongoose
That's the explanation then.
However, if you take out the Ship Design Chapter you really do need to move the Common Space Craft chapter ahead of the Starship Operations and Space Combat Chapters.
It fits as it follows on from Vehicles (Space Craft are vehicles) and it means the new player understands what the Spaceship stats are before they start learning the rules of operation.
However, if you take out the Ship Design Chapter you really do need to move the Common Space Craft chapter ahead of the Starship Operations and Space Combat Chapters.
It fits as it follows on from Vehicles (Space Craft are vehicles) and it means the new player understands what the Spaceship stats are before they start learning the rules of operation.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Also, you need to make sure that all the necessary OPERATIONS are in the Core Book.
I will move the details over to the Spacecraft Operations Forum, but Fuel Consumption needs to be in the Core book. If you don't tell the new players how much fuel is used to jump etc. then they can't operate their ship without using another book.
I will move the details over to the Spacecraft Operations Forum, but Fuel Consumption needs to be in the Core book. If you don't tell the new players how much fuel is used to jump etc. then they can't operate their ship without using another book.
Having a single design process that scales up and down makes the most sense. Instead of shoe-horning in the larger ships and the inevitable discussions that occur.
I do think the verbiage in the CRB needs to reflect that what's being presented is meant to get players started and have enough information to operate and make minor modifications to their ship. But major modifications or custom-build options are in HG. Spend some time pointing that out so there isn't any feeling of waffling (and the idea that you'd only take your off-the-rack free trader and explore the galaxy without ever adding new engines and racing stripes doesn't fit really with most of the games I've played. Everybody wants gun,guns, engines, guns!).
I second this. Fuel consumption needs to be fully detailed here. Also, for your measly Jump-1 Free Trader, how do you bridge the gap between planets?. So things like jump tanks, demountable tanks, etc, SOME of that belongs in the CRB so people can figure out how to get from A to B.
I do think the verbiage in the CRB needs to reflect that what's being presented is meant to get players started and have enough information to operate and make minor modifications to their ship. But major modifications or custom-build options are in HG. Spend some time pointing that out so there isn't any feeling of waffling (and the idea that you'd only take your off-the-rack free trader and explore the galaxy without ever adding new engines and racing stripes doesn't fit really with most of the games I've played. Everybody wants gun,guns, engines, guns!).
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
I second this. Fuel consumption needs to be fully detailed here. Also, for your measly Jump-1 Free Trader, how do you bridge the gap between planets?. So things like jump tanks, demountable tanks, etc, SOME of that belongs in the CRB so people can figure out how to get from A to B.
vladthemad
Mongoose
-Daniel- said:
I was in agreement with that idea before, as a previous player and GM with the intention of using these rules to continue to play in the 3rd Imperium. With that in mind, sure the provided ships work. But then I started thing what if I (or other people) wanted to play in a universe besides the 3rd Imperium? It's kind of hard to come up with TIE fighters or the Enterprise without a system to do so.
The first two paragraphs of the introduction states:
Traveller is a science fiction roleplaying game of the
far future. A multitude of universes await players and
you will find Traveller is capable of handling almost
any kind of science fiction setting, from highly intricate
cyberpunk worlds to campaigns spanning entire galaxies
where mighty empires clash and suns explode.
If you have a favourite science fiction film or TV show,
Traveller will be able to replicate it for you, bringing your
best-loved futuristic moments your tabletop.
That really isn't possible without having ship creation rules in the core rule book.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
That is a great point. So the question is, did the introduction say you could play your favorite with just the first core book or with the core books? Not sure either way, but right now they keep referring to the core books. More than one book is the core. So with the core book we have now, we couldn't.vladthemad said:
All I do know for sure is that, as of right now, I would need to buy more than one book to be able to play in my "favourite science fiction film or TV show" and even then, I bet I would still have to house rule some things.
vladthemad
Mongoose
-Daniel- said:
I have seen people say that too, but that's more a case of one person who thinks he's in the know saying something and everyone taking it as truth. The rest of that first paragraph I previously quoted from the introduction states:
Throughout this book, mention is made of other titles
available in the Traveller series. Each of these books
concentrates on a particular aspect of Traveller, allowing
you to expand your game into new realms of play.
However, none are vital or necessary to the game and
are presented only for your continued enjoyment – you
can explore a huge amount of the galaxy with this Core
Rulebook alone!
So no, according to what it literally says in the core rule book it's not a multi-book set like some people keep saying as the other books aren't required. If it's the only book you need to lay, and it's not specifically 3rd Imperium only, then ship construction of some form should be in this book.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
Or if that is not their intent, then the introduction needs to be edited to admit their intent. Either way, given what you pointed out in the introduction it is not just ship design that is missing but also vehicle design. How can I create any possible Sci Fi movie or show without either.vladthemad said:
At this point I believe we should wait for some commend from those who are in command to offer insight. :wink:
vladthemad
Mongoose
-Daniel- said:
Good point, how can I make my sand crawlers!!!! On first glance I was fine with having the construction rules consolidated into one book, but after reading the introduction I started to think otherwise.
msprange said:
Matt, if that's the intent please reword the introduction so that it's noted this is a 3rd Imperium-centric edition and that while the core rule book is enough to get you started to experience the full game or to run it in a different setting you'll need said other books.
Bense
Cosmic Mongoose
A case could be made that someone can just house rule up some other ships and vehicles that match the setting they're trying to emulate, using the given examples as their baselines. That way they could indeed use the core book to run the setting they choose. It would certainly take more work though.
Another alternative is to go the T5 route and provide design rules for everything in the core book: equipment, vehicles, and starships, but it's a bit of a mess, complicated to use and hardly something you could hand to a new role-player and expect them to understand and use.
Classic Traveller had a middle ground, with just the basic starship design system in the core book, with examples of gear and vehicles but no actual rules for designing them. And MgT1.0 emulated that with success.
Another alternative is to go the T5 route and provide design rules for everything in the core book: equipment, vehicles, and starships, but it's a bit of a mess, complicated to use and hardly something you could hand to a new role-player and expect them to understand and use.
Classic Traveller had a middle ground, with just the basic starship design system in the core book, with examples of gear and vehicles but no actual rules for designing them. And MgT1.0 emulated that with success.
phavoc said:
Agreed, done. Also fixed the Far Trader fuel issue.
chiron0224
Mongoose
I posted this in the Common Spacecraft section as well but I want to re-iterate here since it's pertinent to the discussion. I'm willing to allow for the idea that the CRB includes many ships to use and that one of the cool perks with High Guard will be "Build your own ships!". But the problem is that a lot of the common spacecraft are incomplete in that case. What I mean is, where are all the guns? I get that free traders come hot off the press without guns but come on, nobody is going to fly around the marches or the Trojan sector without packing some heat and free traders get retrofitted with guns all the time. Even some of the armed ships are just armed with empty turrets (i.e. Scout/Courier and Seeker Miner). The space combat section of the rules for some reason includes the rules for how many hardpoints a ship gets and the costs of turrets and weapons and such. This stuff would make way more sense at the beginning of common spacecraft so that you can actually outfit your ships with guns. But even still, something is missing. The entries for the different guns are missing their power requirements so that if I want to run a game with just the CRB I can't because I can't equip the ship and no how much power the guns require. So a "meet us in the middle" thing here might be to have the rules for adding guns in the beginning of the Common Spacecraft chapter.
************************************OR****************************************
Include weapon loadouts in ship descriptions. So a Scout/Courier for example could have listed.
Loadout A:
Double turret with x2 Pulse lasers(4 power each)
[list the stats of the guns]
Loadout B:
Double turret with x2 Beam lasers(2 power each)
[list the stats of the guns]
etc. maybe have two or three loudouts per ship. That way players can actually get into firefights with the core rules but, again, high guard would allow greater customization.
************************************OR****************************************
Include weapon loadouts in ship descriptions. So a Scout/Courier for example could have listed.
Loadout A:
Double turret with x2 Pulse lasers(4 power each)
[list the stats of the guns]
Loadout B:
Double turret with x2 Beam lasers(2 power each)
[list the stats of the guns]
etc. maybe have two or three loudouts per ship. That way players can actually get into firefights with the core rules but, again, high guard would allow greater customization.
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