Next Armageddon Fix?

[Kizar]

I am newcomer to the game (though a long term wargamer and fan of Babylon 5).

It seems to me that the Shadows and Vorlons can really be treated in two different ways - they can be treated as another 'normal' playable race or as the 'super races' that appear in the series. For the first approach their ships need to fit within the general limits of other races ships for the second approach their ships need to be substantially more powerful. Neither approach is right or wrong - just depends how individuals want to play the game.

 

[B5freak]

Tenacious,

Suggestions are always welcome!

 

[Ripple]

Actually a third option for the Shadows/Vorlons was available. That of doing what they did with ever other race, make ships up. These would not necesarrily be the ships used for war, but minor ships at least to them,

We, as modern military states do not use tanks to patrol our streets (some rare areas we use armored vechiles...but not our main battle tanks). We do not have battleships doing customs work. Where are these ships?

The fighters could have been done differently, ie more as small ships with mulitple damage points. Given both shadows and vorlons use organic technology we could have immature ships, out on excercises to get practical experience. We could have roque elements left behind, Vorlons and shadows who do not go beyond much like some Ancients did not go.

We could have had servitor races using Vorlon or Shadow ships, not as efficiently but still growing them. I mean did the shadows/vorlons do construction themselves or did they have someone do that.

Lots of different options to bring the iconic vessels into the game that does not include them being at their best, most advanced state. That shadow cloud operated by the Drahk was certainly not at its best.

Ripple

 

[B5freak]

Ripple,

I agree. There's lots of evidence in the canon for "young" shadow ships which could fill a light cruiser role and for "old" ships which could be bumped up to dreadnaught (Armageddon) level. The AoG list did just that, though I think you had to have the Wars of the Ancients expansion to get the full spectrum of ship classes.

 

[alien027]

What they need to fix in the next errata is the PL of the Warlock. If it was dificult to fhight the warlock agaist 2 battle level enemy ship, now are 4 battle level agaist a Warlock Armagedon level. and with NO significan upgrade in this ship. :evil:

 

[B5freak]

No arguement here. I know of at least three playtesters, myself included, who asked that it be left at War.

 

[Burger]

No arguement here. I know of at least three playtesters, myself included, who asked that it be left at War.

So much for "5 good men". "3 ignored men" more like!

 

[animus]

This begs the question: is this game sufficiently playtested?

How could these problems have slipped through? How could the Neroon be so wacked? How could the Warlock be moved without empowerment? How could the Tournament fleets be ignored?

I understand that Mongoose can and does sometimes make corrections in S&P (sometimes) but I doubt they'll ever be able to swallow enough crow to make all the changes we're suggesting here. It's discouraging when I'm trying to get new players involved.

I understand that whenever there's a change in a game, all the old players shout "cheese" but I don't think all this is undeserved. Rules good/ships bad is a real theme in Armageddon and in my reading - without a favorite fleet - I agree.

I think every ship, every model should be worth taking - choosing ships should be like a visit to a candy store, not a used car lot. Before Mongoose makes more ships, they need to fix the old ones and now also, the new ones!

 

[Burger]

choosing ships should be like a visit to a candy store, not a used car lot.

 

[B5freak]

For clarification, I wasn't one of "the Bab 5". They sent the playtest rules/lists to myself and one of the other U.S. MI for comment.

Agree, picking a ship should be a candy-store selection. Any reasonable combination of ships from the fleet lists should be viable. Some combinations will be more challenging to play obviously, but they should all be viable. Especially where the mainline ships from the show are concerned.

 

[tneva82]

How many games of 4/5 point Armageddon are gonna be played?

I could see myself easily playing 4/5 point armageddons. 3 point armageddon went through fast enough as it was. Okay we didn't go for anything silly like 24 patrol ships for each point(which would slow down of course) but if you take high level games you might just as well take big ships(that's the whole point) which cuts down on time.

Oh and one reason to up the priority level: If they didn't up the PL level of shadow and vorlon big ships it would basicly make new armageddon level ships totally ridiculous. By definition armageddon level ship is supposed to be more powerfull than war level ship and idea of younger race creating ship more powerfull than what shadows and vorlons could make? Right...So without upping PL level neroon, adira, nemesis etc should have been left to war as well(with stats to match).

As for tournament problem: Give them smaller cruisers to fill smaller levels. AOG game had different sized shadow ships so that idea could be borrowed. Something similar to Vorlons. For really small games up the fighters so they are actually scary(or give them advanced fighter maybe at skirmish level). But the Vorlon heavy cruiser and Shadow ship should be at the highest level there is(for practical reasons. To be even more accurate to show there should be level above armageddon which younger races cannot reach but that would be pushing it to non-practical level).

 

[Ripple]

The idea of a level above War was originally asked for to represent the biggest First One tech, this iis where some of the disappointment with the new pls (and there really are two new ones) comes in. Folks wanted the new level to reflect that the first ones heavy ships were truly awsome, but leave the smaller ships as the smaller variants and add larger stuff.

The only younger races ships that were discussed as belonging to a higher tech were the Victory, Sharlin and/or possible the drahk. This left the area of top dog again open only to those that had First one influence. Mongoose decided to add ships into Arm. largely to make it part of the standard game and open up new marketing slots in the game. With the PL system adding new things is going to require that kind of fiddling that a points system does not.

Ripple

 

[Locutus9956]

yeah Im inclined to agree there, I personally would have prefered Armageddon PL to be reserved for the Shadows and Vorlons and MAYBE a couple of really advanced things like the VCD or the Shargotti (command sharlin basically). I personally hate the idea of everyone and his uncle getting a ship in that league

Oh and agree completely about the candy store vs used car thing, I still think people whine and moan too much about various ships but theres IS still ALOT of room for improvement.

 

[thePirv]

The only younger races ships that were discussed as belonging to a higher tech were the Victory, Sharlin and/or possible the drahk.
Ripple

Alas, if only.

 

[dant164]

Think of us poor Crusade Era EA players, our candy store is much smaller than it used to be.

Pros and Cons of armageddon for crusade Era EA

+ We get a new ship
- We have no servicable war level ship
- BOTH our armageddon ships consistently suck

There was NO reason to put the Warlock at armageddon level, they didnt even perform that well at war level, at least their they were servicable, passable warships. By the same token, why has the shadow omega gone up to armageddon?

 

[Locutus9956]

Actually there WAS a reason to put the Warlock to armageddon, namely to give the 3rd Age EA an Armageddon choice.

I happen to think this is as ideas go, right up there with stirfrying ones own genetalia but it is a reason nonetheless :wink:

As I mentioned above I dont really like the idea of the EA at ANY era having a ship at that sort of power level let alone the series era!

Put it back to SFoS/Tourney version and War level where it belongs!