Greg Smith
Mongoose
msprange said:
Apologies for the over reaction.
Nothing was said about it being provisional. Nor that it needed more testing. It did come out of the blue.
New Vuldrok List
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Apologies for the over reaction.
Nothing was said about it being provisional. Nor that it needed more testing. It did come out of the blue.
starbreaker
Mongoose
The old Vuldrok list was the most broken piece of work this game has ever seen. If it had gone to press as written I'd have been selling off my fleets within the week. And that one was theoretically playtested.
The new one looks much better, since the bulk of the fleet is no longer practically invulnerable to shooting. Complaints about the vulnerability to precise weapons are valid, but I question whether they're realistic about how badly you're really hurting in the rock-paper-scissors matchup with Li Halan. Crunch some numbers on ship versus ship:
Li Halan frigate versus Vuldrok frigate - Li Halan broadside scores 3 hits per turn, averaging (due to 6 crits being voids) slightly under 4 damage and a crit each turn. You can probably expect to fire without response fire at least once, maybe twice before your enemy's light slugs start chewing on you. When the slugs do start firing back, the Vuldrok broadside score 3 multihit 2 shots per turn, which pushes slightly under (due to bulheads) 3 damage and half a crit per turn. The Vuldie clearly isn't winning that shooting exchange except with dumb luck. The actual damage numbers are likely to be lower (since both ships will be using Close Blast Doors regularly) but the extra crits from the Precise weapons will swing the fight to the Li Halan most of the time.
But - the Vuldie has better maneuverability, more troops, better ramming, one more point of damage to cripple, and a better save with Blast Doors, which it should be running on many turns. When it gets into range, it should beat the Li Halan unless the pious bums can slip back out of reach quickly. The armor change, better crippling value, and massive ramming boost has made the new Vuldrok list more of a knife-fighting fleet, where their old invulnerability to most shooting let them stand at mid-range and play attrition games.
Moreover, a Vuldrok admiral facing lasers should consider All Power To Engines as an alternative to Close Blast Doors. Degrading your near-worthless Armor 1 and 2 defenses is meaningless, closing at 18-24" per turn will get you to slug gun range in no time, and once you get even a few guns into explosive shell range the rest of the fleet's guns become intolerably deadly. You'll take more damage doing a sprint-and-close, but we've all watched Hazat make it work against Al Malik and your guns are better, a lot better.
There are some other real prizes in those changes too.
30 point "explorers" with 16" movement, Agile, and Ramming 3? Yes, please. Armor 2 blocking 1/3rd of the hull hits might even let you do it twice if you don't aim for too large a target.
The light frigate is a heck of a bargain against laser fleets, too - why pay an extra 25 points for a bigger frigate when you can take the lights instead? Trade 2 points of hull for 2 points of speed and Agile, and your Armor is not much more useless than your big cousin's. Against other fleets it's not quite so good, but not terrible either - 4 of them still get you 64 hull and 20 light slug guns per broadside versus 3 "real" frigates with 54 hull and 15 guns.
You won't get rams with your bigger ships very often, but the value bumps on them aren't funny either. Galliots can expect to fly through an enmy frigate on a ram now. Destroyers get a crit on a 2+, and max out at 4(!) crits. Both of them take half damage in return, too - Armor is amazing in rams. Vuldroks are the kings of the ram, both offensive and defensive.
Seems to me like a lot of the grousing going on is coming from people who haven't actually looked at the fleet's strengths, just what it lost. The Vuldie Armor 3+ stuff is no longer nigh-invulnerable, your opponents no longer have to leave all their small ships and bombers home, and you need to rethink your fleet lists and tactics. I feel bad for people who bought minis based on a false fleet list, but I'd rather see you suffer than the whole game wrecked by that abomination of an alpha list.
The new one looks much better, since the bulk of the fleet is no longer practically invulnerable to shooting. Complaints about the vulnerability to precise weapons are valid, but I question whether they're realistic about how badly you're really hurting in the rock-paper-scissors matchup with Li Halan. Crunch some numbers on ship versus ship:
Li Halan frigate versus Vuldrok frigate - Li Halan broadside scores 3 hits per turn, averaging (due to 6 crits being voids) slightly under 4 damage and a crit each turn. You can probably expect to fire without response fire at least once, maybe twice before your enemy's light slugs start chewing on you. When the slugs do start firing back, the Vuldrok broadside score 3 multihit 2 shots per turn, which pushes slightly under (due to bulheads) 3 damage and half a crit per turn. The Vuldie clearly isn't winning that shooting exchange except with dumb luck. The actual damage numbers are likely to be lower (since both ships will be using Close Blast Doors regularly) but the extra crits from the Precise weapons will swing the fight to the Li Halan most of the time.
But - the Vuldie has better maneuverability, more troops, better ramming, one more point of damage to cripple, and a better save with Blast Doors, which it should be running on many turns. When it gets into range, it should beat the Li Halan unless the pious bums can slip back out of reach quickly. The armor change, better crippling value, and massive ramming boost has made the new Vuldrok list more of a knife-fighting fleet, where their old invulnerability to most shooting let them stand at mid-range and play attrition games.
Moreover, a Vuldrok admiral facing lasers should consider All Power To Engines as an alternative to Close Blast Doors. Degrading your near-worthless Armor 1 and 2 defenses is meaningless, closing at 18-24" per turn will get you to slug gun range in no time, and once you get even a few guns into explosive shell range the rest of the fleet's guns become intolerably deadly. You'll take more damage doing a sprint-and-close, but we've all watched Hazat make it work against Al Malik and your guns are better, a lot better.
There are some other real prizes in those changes too.
30 point "explorers" with 16" movement, Agile, and Ramming 3? Yes, please. Armor 2 blocking 1/3rd of the hull hits might even let you do it twice if you don't aim for too large a target.
The light frigate is a heck of a bargain against laser fleets, too - why pay an extra 25 points for a bigger frigate when you can take the lights instead? Trade 2 points of hull for 2 points of speed and Agile, and your Armor is not much more useless than your big cousin's. Against other fleets it's not quite so good, but not terrible either - 4 of them still get you 64 hull and 20 light slug guns per broadside versus 3 "real" frigates with 54 hull and 15 guns.
You won't get rams with your bigger ships very often, but the value bumps on them aren't funny either. Galliots can expect to fly through an enmy frigate on a ram now. Destroyers get a crit on a 2+, and max out at 4(!) crits. Both of them take half damage in return, too - Armor is amazing in rams. Vuldroks are the kings of the ram, both offensive and defensive.
Seems to me like a lot of the grousing going on is coming from people who haven't actually looked at the fleet's strengths, just what it lost. The Vuldie Armor 3+ stuff is no longer nigh-invulnerable, your opponents no longer have to leave all their small ships and bombers home, and you need to rethink your fleet lists and tactics. I feel bad for people who bought minis based on a false fleet list, but I'd rather see you suffer than the whole game wrecked by that abomination of an alpha list.
people rarely use frigates, destroyers is where its at.
plus you are forgetting the side effects of crits, slowing speed etc.
also how do you get into range on a li-halan thats just as fast as you, ok they cant turn but I can guarantee you wont get one into 12" against me let alone 8". i did it with hawkwood against decados (and decados have turrets and range 24). you have to advance 24" and hope you are within 12" but thats straight on, 3rd turn you might get to shoot if the li-halan dont scoot off.
this is assuming you dont take speed crits of course. and the crits are not to the same location causing yet more damage. and thats li-halan, hawkwood who are the more popular fleet can match you for manouvrability on frigates and destroyers.
people who are grousing are the people who are playtesting. and lets be honest until the vuldrok get within 8" of somebody to use their knock down shields weapons they are facing the old version of their armour from everybody else, except higher (vuldrok frigate - arm 2, every other frigate - shields 3; vuldrok destroyer - arm 3, every other dest - shields 4, vuldrok dread - arm 3, every other dread -shields 6).
arm 1 is pointless and so is the light frigate. i have seen how quickly a hawkwood explorer crumples and that has 2 shields, the vuldrok light frigate has no defence against anything and is hull 3 so are totally pointless. they were pretty bad before (hull 3, arm 1, wow) and i was never going to use them, now they are the worst of what is a ruined fleet.
so tell me how the old vuldrok were broken? yes a li-halan frigate needed to hit with everything but 1 against their Arm 3 dreadnought to get one damage through - a vuldrok frigate has to hit with all but 1 to get 2 rolls through a dreadnoughts shields and it hasnt knocked them down either unless within 8" and to be honest if you are running frigates then you wont get near a dread that has 3 times your range.
my vuldrok may well be for sale unless something is done to fix them as they will not see the light of day. my decados fleet can match their firepower (actually above it) but have shields as well. 6 on a dreadnought which will ruin any vuldroks day (and my decados fought enough dreadnoughts in the last tourney with nothing bigger than a destroyer so I know what I mean).
in fact against vuldrok a good 1000pt fleet is a dreadnought and cruiser. the vuldrok dont have a chance no matter what size ship they bring.
plus you are forgetting the side effects of crits, slowing speed etc.
also how do you get into range on a li-halan thats just as fast as you, ok they cant turn but I can guarantee you wont get one into 12" against me let alone 8". i did it with hawkwood against decados (and decados have turrets and range 24). you have to advance 24" and hope you are within 12" but thats straight on, 3rd turn you might get to shoot if the li-halan dont scoot off.
this is assuming you dont take speed crits of course. and the crits are not to the same location causing yet more damage. and thats li-halan, hawkwood who are the more popular fleet can match you for manouvrability on frigates and destroyers.
people who are grousing are the people who are playtesting. and lets be honest until the vuldrok get within 8" of somebody to use their knock down shields weapons they are facing the old version of their armour from everybody else, except higher (vuldrok frigate - arm 2, every other frigate - shields 3; vuldrok destroyer - arm 3, every other dest - shields 4, vuldrok dread - arm 3, every other dread -shields 6).
arm 1 is pointless and so is the light frigate. i have seen how quickly a hawkwood explorer crumples and that has 2 shields, the vuldrok light frigate has no defence against anything and is hull 3 so are totally pointless. they were pretty bad before (hull 3, arm 1, wow) and i was never going to use them, now they are the worst of what is a ruined fleet.
so tell me how the old vuldrok were broken? yes a li-halan frigate needed to hit with everything but 1 against their Arm 3 dreadnought to get one damage through - a vuldrok frigate has to hit with all but 1 to get 2 rolls through a dreadnoughts shields and it hasnt knocked them down either unless within 8" and to be honest if you are running frigates then you wont get near a dread that has 3 times your range.
my vuldrok may well be for sale unless something is done to fix them as they will not see the light of day. my decados fleet can match their firepower (actually above it) but have shields as well. 6 on a dreadnought which will ruin any vuldroks day (and my decados fought enough dreadnoughts in the last tourney with nothing bigger than a destroyer so I know what I mean).
in fact against vuldrok a good 1000pt fleet is a dreadnought and cruiser. the vuldrok dont have a chance no matter what size ship they bring.
Because numerous units literally could not hurt them.
I have no problem with needing sixes, or even sixes then sixes (one could suggest boosting the hull of an armoured warship might be appropriate).
But no matter how remote the chance, there should always be a chance. If armour cannot be burnt out, and cannot be bypassed by slow weapons, a lot of smaller ships and fighters are literally sitting there hoping that someone manages an armour critical at some point in the game. That's no fun for anyone.
Will have to have a play around with the lighter gunships. I hadn't noticed the ramming values go up....
you can say the same about small vuldrok ships against a dreadnought with its 6 shields.
on a slightly higher than average a vuldrok frigate does no damage to a dreadnought and doesnt knock its shields down.
on the old armour on a slightly higher than average a li-halan frigate does no damage to a vuldrok dreadnought.
in fact both fleets need the same amount of hits to damage a dreadnought with frigates
on a side note, if the rules stay as they are I will have a vuldrok fleet for sale, new in box. just glad i never expanded it like i was going to as they are pointless for now.
on a slightly higher than average a vuldrok frigate does no damage to a dreadnought and doesnt knock its shields down.
on the old armour on a slightly higher than average a li-halan frigate does no damage to a vuldrok dreadnought.
in fact both fleets need the same amount of hits to damage a dreadnought with frigates
on a side note, if the rules stay as they are I will have a vuldrok fleet for sale, new in box. just glad i never expanded it like i was going to as they are pointless for now.
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
That seems to be missing Locarno's point. Locarno seems to be saying that the Vuldrok dreadnoughts were invulnerable to many ships. Not that one ship had a low probability of scoring damage, that they could score no damage at all, no matter how many were firing. If that is so (haven't seen the old Vuldrok list so I don't know), then that's bad.
Precisely. If I have (for the sake of argument) a wing of vuldrok frigates against an Anikrunta, slug fire will rattle off the shields as long as I can't close to range for explosive rounds.
But (a) there is a chance of the odd point slipping past, and (b) the whole point of vuldrok frigates (at least to me) is to close to explosive-round range and clear shields for the rest of the fleet with burn-out fire, which they do very, very well. A fleet of multiple lighter vuldrok ships fighting a single house dreadnought can do something. It may not work, but the possiblity is there and the odds aren't that bad.
By comparison, you cannot burn out vuldrok armour in the first version of the list. you cannot slip under it with slow. You cannot reduce it without criticals which is a catch-22 if you can't damage the bugger in the first place. Even if I have equivalent points worth of frigates, or more, especially with low damage potential fleets like Al-Malik and Kurgan, the dreadnought captain just stands there mooning at you through the bridge window as salvo after salvo of rockets do nothing whatsoever regardless of range....
But (a) there is a chance of the odd point slipping past, and (b) the whole point of vuldrok frigates (at least to me) is to close to explosive-round range and clear shields for the rest of the fleet with burn-out fire, which they do very, very well. A fleet of multiple lighter vuldrok ships fighting a single house dreadnought can do something. It may not work, but the possiblity is there and the odds aren't that bad.
By comparison, you cannot burn out vuldrok armour in the first version of the list. you cannot slip under it with slow. You cannot reduce it without criticals which is a catch-22 if you can't damage the bugger in the first place. Even if I have equivalent points worth of frigates, or more, especially with low damage potential fleets like Al-Malik and Kurgan, the dreadnought captain just stands there mooning at you through the bridge window as salvo after salvo of rockets do nothing whatsoever regardless of range....
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
Looking at the Vuldrok frigates, I was thinking that Maximum Firepower! would work to help bring down the target's shields so that follow-up attacks could get through. You're only allowed to fire at one ship and you don't get crits, but you'd only be firing at one target anyway with so few guns, and you won't be getting past the shields so the lack of crits does not matter. The extra Attack Dice will help. Once the shields are down, the remaining ships switch to solid shot and start knocking holes in the hull.
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
Ramming: Is it my imagination or are the Vuldrok optimised for ramming? They seem to have higher Ramming scores than opposing ships of the same size, and any damage they suffer from ramming another ship will be mitigated by the armour (unlike the shields of their Noble House opponents, which are useless in a ram). Even the little explorer has a Ramming value of 3, which means it's got a slightly better than even chance of inflicting 10 or more points of damage. If it does, then it gets a critical hit into the bargain, with the critical score determined by die roll, for even more damage.
Iron Domokun said:
Good point. Frigates have even 4 which is double than decados frigate has...Head on head vuldrok frigate has 33% chance of blowing decados frigate with the ramming(if I recall ramming rules right. d6 times ramming value right?).
Ships don't even look that slow to me so should be okayish chance to do it.
Of course getting that ram pulled off might be tricky but certainly looks like "give me ramming speed!" is going to be popular order
What kind of suicide wannabe's vuldrok's are recruiting to their ships anyway?-) "Join the fleet! You are expected to ram headon with your enemy vessels! Life expectancy: Short!"
Oh and add to that to their troop scores and even noble armada newbie like me gets the hint that these are not "stand back and shoot" type of guys
Tempts me to get them for 2nd army then! Besides I like challenges
locarno24 said:
the 1st version did have crits for armour so you can lower it.
the armour is lower than any ship of equivalent class has shields (50% in the dreadnoughts case).
al-malik tend to have more dice than anyone else. kurgan might be a bit stuffed.
a fleet of lighter vuldrok ships was unlikely to take on a dreadnought and win (range 12 means 2-3 turns of shooting before you even get there and a dread of any race can put down a frigate a turn easily). this is even less likely under the current rules as they have no defence against the hawkwood dreadnought at all.
currently the vuldrok have gone from being one of the better fleets to the biggest turkey in the game (even behind al-malik which is saying something).
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
The difference between armour and shields is that you can burn out shields. Shields will give some protection against the first few attacks in a turn but armour will protect against each and every shot. As for the criticals, well, shields have their own critical table and can be taken down by sufficiently severe reactor hits as well, so that's a wash I reckon. Armour value X is strictly better than Shields X. I don't know if Armour 3 is as good as Shields 6, but I think that with a small number of ships firing the shields are better but with a larger number then Armour is better.
Iron Domokun said:
Yeh. I'm actually slightly dissapointed in how easily shields are knocked out. Frankly the whole "burn out" trait is pretty meaningless seeing just how widespread it is...
Though albeit the fleets from the expansion might change it a bit. But as it is from base book's fleet shields are basically remove first X hits per turn and that's it.
Had another try last night with the new rules.
Used a 5 vs 5 call to arms destroyer duel - about as generic as it gets.
5 Langskips versus 5 Hawkwood Griffins. I figured they were a good acid test because they have a big laser broadside (against which armour should be bad) and missile turrets (against which armour should be good). Plus they're pretty much the 'yardstick ship' for fading suns - the middle-of-the-range ship for what's always pretty much the first house to be listed.
Hawkwood lost the deployment roll (that Vuldrok +1 is a lot better than it first seems) and set up in a line astern, well back into their deployment zone, hoping to use their range advantage.
The Vuldrok set up in line abreast on an intercept course, as close as the deployment allowed.
The game was fairly simple and very bloody - the vuldrok closed with blast doors closed (that 4+ save is really good), then turned inside the hawkwood ships (which were turning as they approached the opposite board edge). At that point it more or less became a broadside duel.
The 'free turn' of shooting by the Hawkwood was good but not game-ending - five Griffins pouring laser and missile fire into a single Langskip with blast doors closed did a fair amount of structural damage (knocking it down to about half hit points) and got several criticals.
However, criticals are no longer the game-enders they were in ACTA:2e - the Langskip ended up down 2 points of speed (still speed 10), down 1 shield (which doesn't matter), and lost 3 troops (which still left it with the same as a Griffin). The only really concerning hit was the potentially escalating fires, which didn't. The entire fleet's fire and the ship's fighting power wasn't impacted at all.
Now there was a degree of luck that none of the criticals were weapons hits, but then also none were shields hits, and we're talking about a vessel tanking the combined fire of five equivalent warships, including 35 laser shots.
Casualties did follow - the damaged Langskip survived another couple of turns before finally going down - mostly because it stayed on Close Blast Doors! whilst the other Vuldrok ships opened up to use their broadsides. But the casualties came as fast on the Hawkwood side. The Vuldrok co-operated - one ship firing explosive rounds to clear shields (invariably with massive overkill, but then explosive rounds are still perfectly good against a hull), with the second and occasionally third hammering the exposed target with hard rounds.
The sheer firepower of a Langskip against an unshielded target is terrifying; if one ship is in range for explosive rounds, those accurate, multihit 3 slugs will shatter a hull in one easy go.
By the third turn, both sides had lost a pair of destroyers and by the end, there were only two crippled Langskips (one going the wrong way with engines blown out and the other with an escalating critical) and one (slightly) more intact Griffin with about half its hull missing and far too many vuldrok marines aboard for comfort.
It was a genuinely fun game. If either side had a major advantage, it wasn't really visible - not beneath the natural variation of dice, anyway. The fact that the two fleets essentially managed mutual annihalation means that to me, they seem pretty close.
Notes:
Close Blast Doors! is awesome for Vuldrok. Far more use than All Power To Engines! (with it's possible armour damage).
A Langskip is about equivalent with a Griffin for damage durability - if not system damage. The key thing is that armour (still) can't be burnt out:
A Griffin firing at a generic shielded frigate is pretty much dependent on its missile turrets - the lasers will manage an average of about 1/3 of a hit past the shields (they're not meant for single-duel engagements!) whilst the missiles will land two and a bit.
By comparison, on the armoured, unshielded Langskip it can use it's gun decks to full effect as well, and you're looking at more like four and a half hits.
However, if a second destroyer fires on the shielded ship (now with shields burnt out), it will do an impressive seven hits, as will any third and subsequent shooters, whilst the Langskip continues to take four and a half hits per firer.
Essentially - in single-duel engagements shields are better but once you have a fleet fighting a co-ordinated battle, armour quickly becomes equal and then better.
Still don't get the point of the light frigate's armour 1, though...
Used a 5 vs 5 call to arms destroyer duel - about as generic as it gets.
5 Langskips versus 5 Hawkwood Griffins. I figured they were a good acid test because they have a big laser broadside (against which armour should be bad) and missile turrets (against which armour should be good). Plus they're pretty much the 'yardstick ship' for fading suns - the middle-of-the-range ship for what's always pretty much the first house to be listed.
Hawkwood lost the deployment roll (that Vuldrok +1 is a lot better than it first seems) and set up in a line astern, well back into their deployment zone, hoping to use their range advantage.
The Vuldrok set up in line abreast on an intercept course, as close as the deployment allowed.
The game was fairly simple and very bloody - the vuldrok closed with blast doors closed (that 4+ save is really good), then turned inside the hawkwood ships (which were turning as they approached the opposite board edge). At that point it more or less became a broadside duel.
The 'free turn' of shooting by the Hawkwood was good but not game-ending - five Griffins pouring laser and missile fire into a single Langskip with blast doors closed did a fair amount of structural damage (knocking it down to about half hit points) and got several criticals.
However, criticals are no longer the game-enders they were in ACTA:2e - the Langskip ended up down 2 points of speed (still speed 10), down 1 shield (which doesn't matter), and lost 3 troops (which still left it with the same as a Griffin). The only really concerning hit was the potentially escalating fires, which didn't. The entire fleet's fire and the ship's fighting power wasn't impacted at all.
Now there was a degree of luck that none of the criticals were weapons hits, but then also none were shields hits, and we're talking about a vessel tanking the combined fire of five equivalent warships, including 35 laser shots.
Casualties did follow - the damaged Langskip survived another couple of turns before finally going down - mostly because it stayed on Close Blast Doors! whilst the other Vuldrok ships opened up to use their broadsides. But the casualties came as fast on the Hawkwood side. The Vuldrok co-operated - one ship firing explosive rounds to clear shields (invariably with massive overkill, but then explosive rounds are still perfectly good against a hull), with the second and occasionally third hammering the exposed target with hard rounds.
The sheer firepower of a Langskip against an unshielded target is terrifying; if one ship is in range for explosive rounds, those accurate, multihit 3 slugs will shatter a hull in one easy go.
By the third turn, both sides had lost a pair of destroyers and by the end, there were only two crippled Langskips (one going the wrong way with engines blown out and the other with an escalating critical) and one (slightly) more intact Griffin with about half its hull missing and far too many vuldrok marines aboard for comfort.
It was a genuinely fun game. If either side had a major advantage, it wasn't really visible - not beneath the natural variation of dice, anyway. The fact that the two fleets essentially managed mutual annihalation means that to me, they seem pretty close.
Notes:
Close Blast Doors! is awesome for Vuldrok. Far more use than All Power To Engines! (with it's possible armour damage).
A Langskip is about equivalent with a Griffin for damage durability - if not system damage. The key thing is that armour (still) can't be burnt out:
A Griffin firing at a generic shielded frigate is pretty much dependent on its missile turrets - the lasers will manage an average of about 1/3 of a hit past the shields (they're not meant for single-duel engagements!) whilst the missiles will land two and a bit.
By comparison, on the armoured, unshielded Langskip it can use it's gun decks to full effect as well, and you're looking at more like four and a half hits.
However, if a second destroyer fires on the shielded ship (now with shields burnt out), it will do an impressive seven hits, as will any third and subsequent shooters, whilst the Langskip continues to take four and a half hits per firer.
Essentially - in single-duel engagements shields are better but once you have a fleet fighting a co-ordinated battle, armour quickly becomes equal and then better.
Still don't get the point of the light frigate's armour 1, though...
the destroyer is the best ship in the game no matter what fleet.
the vuldrok destroyer only has 1 less armour than opposing fleets shields and its at a point where its actually useful.
below this level your frigates and light frigates armour 1 and 2 if against precise weapons are basically no defence. above this level the dreadnought has the same armour as a destroyer which is no match for another fleets armour 6.
basically it seems always close blast doors and a stealth psychic for the dread to have any chance of facing an opposing one.
the vuldrok destroyer only has 1 less armour than opposing fleets shields and its at a point where its actually useful.
below this level your frigates and light frigates armour 1 and 2 if against precise weapons are basically no defence. above this level the dreadnought has the same armour as a destroyer which is no match for another fleets armour 6.
basically it seems always close blast doors and a stealth psychic for the dread to have any chance of facing an opposing one.
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
That's what I expected. I wonder if the Vuldrok might become increasingly better as fleet sizes climb? Consider: You've got a ship with a Shields value of X. After you inflict X number of burn-out hits in a turn, everything you fire is hitting hull. If you don't kill it before the end of the turn, the shields regenerate and you lose another X hits before you're hitting hull again. The shields stop X hits times the number of turns the target takes to kill. As fleet sizes climb, eventually you hit a point at which you can blow up the target ship in one turn. The shields will only stop X hits. A Vuldrok, on the other hand, will have its armour working against each and every attack. A ship with Armour 2 will stop one-third of all hits no matter how many bullets you throw at it.
I wonder if the armour means you need to use different tactics vs Vuldrok. They can't use All Power To Engines! safely and are relatively short ranged, so staying out of their way could be viable. Especially if you can inflict engine hits.
until the vuldrok get close though they cannot knock down shields so have between 3-6 shields to overcome with every single ship.
and we know how hard it is to get within 8" as seen in babylon 5 ACTA, 8" there was seen as far too short, especially for a broadside weapon
and we know how hard it is to get within 8" as seen in babylon 5 ACTA, 8" there was seen as far too short, especially for a broadside weapon
Except ships in Noble Armada are quite a bit faster and more manouvreable.
The generic house destroyer is on a par with the Hyperion, which (although it was the yardstick originally) was actually bloody nippy as raid-priority ships went.
More to the point, it's not 8"; the medium calibre shell - which Langskip destroyers use - has a 12" reach, which is on a par with the ion cannon which centauri players seem to have no problem deploying. Dreadnought shells are 16", for that matter.
Yes, it's 8" for the frigates, but the Darraor is not going to have any problem getting to any range it choses because it's statline is the bloody White Star all over again (without the durability). The Froljir galliot (like all galliots) is going to have little interest in any weapons except its grapnel guns, and the Myrkwyrm doesn't have any guns at all!
The only one which looks to have a real weapons range issue is the Hadruk frigate.
The generic house destroyer is on a par with the Hyperion, which (although it was the yardstick originally) was actually bloody nippy as raid-priority ships went.
More to the point, it's not 8"; the medium calibre shell - which Langskip destroyers use - has a 12" reach, which is on a par with the ion cannon which centauri players seem to have no problem deploying. Dreadnought shells are 16", for that matter.
Yes, it's 8" for the frigates, but the Darraor is not going to have any problem getting to any range it choses because it's statline is the bloody White Star all over again (without the durability). The Froljir galliot (like all galliots) is going to have little interest in any weapons except its grapnel guns, and the Myrkwyrm doesn't have any guns at all!
The only one which looks to have a real weapons range issue is the Hadruk frigate.
well the Darraor is never going to be used, its got less durability than an explorer of other races (hull 3, no shields and pointless armour).
so as this was about the frigates of other races taking on dreadnoughts and destroyers then that is the ship I am using for baseline, so the hadruk is the one in the worst position.
so as this was about the frigates of other races taking on dreadnoughts and destroyers then that is the ship I am using for baseline, so the hadruk is the one in the worst position.
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
katadder said:
I thought this discussion was about whether or not the Vuldrok list was as bad as it appears at first glance, and DNs and DDs simply used as illustration. I don't think its as bad as it appears, and there are at least some subtleties in the list, like the ramming bonuses. I think a Vuldrok ship with bad crits should consider just saying "to hell with it, I'm taking you to Valhalla with me" and ramming, for example.
