New Vuldrok List

[MongooseMatt]

The Vuldrok Star Empire list has been revised and updated - you can see it here;

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniatures/noble-armada/vuldrok-star-nation/vuldrok-fleet-box-set.html

 

[Nerroth]

Vuldrok Star Empire

Looks like someone has a few Star Fleet-isms on their mind...

(In this case, it would be the Vuldrok Star-Nation.)

 

[locarno24]

Looks like someone has a few Star Fleet-isms on their mind...

(In this case, it would be the Vuldrok Star-Nation.)

You can call them what you like - they just got a hell of a lot more killable.

I'm a fan of the change from the Kurgan perspective as sufficient quantities of rocket fire from multiple smaller ships will actually hurt them, and lone torpedo-bombers actually have a prayer. The one big weakness that's now going to mess them up (potentially) is the removal of their immunity to Weak weapons (as with shielded ships) - potentially allowing them to be worn down by fighter slug guns alone.

Personally I don't mind this; any armoured hull must have weak points if there are engines, weapon mounts, etc poking through it, but it will be an unpleasant change for Vuldrok fleet commanders used to complete immunity to smallcraft, especially since they have no fighter cover of their own. Really scary fighters (Mumit or Khangard, for example) are now a big threat, especially since their armament is usually Precise.

 

[katadder]

think the fleet has been ruined with this change. against fleets with precise (almost 2 whole fleets) anything smaller than a destroyer has no defence. they also will get crit to death.
and yet they have no burnout weapons of their own (unless extreme close range) so effectively have the old armour rules in use against them

 

[asodohatch]

Interesting change. I'm looking foward to trying the fleet out. I wasn't a fan of the previous armour rules as it led to the Vuldrok being very hard to hurt for the majority of ships wich have small attack dice numbers in their individual weapon systems. This change should adress that, however it might make the Vuldrok too vulnerable, will have to play them and find out.
Two things immediately came to my attention though. First, the removal of the invulnerbility to weak weapons (as mentioned by locarno24 above) makes them more vulnerable to fighters than any other fleet in the game. Secondly, the armour value of 1 for the Darraor Light Frigate is effectively irrelevant ( if i'm reading the rules correctly) as 1 is already a bulkhead hit.
The other changes are relatively minor, With all the ships being slightly harder to cripple and having slightly higher ramming factors. Also the change to a couple of the runecasting powers is just a slight tweak.
All in all, an interesting change. I will have find some time for a game to test them out.

 

[The Legend]

Very nice.

I like this change. Was considering a Vuldrok fleet but everyone in my group hates them because they are so hard to kill under the old rules.

One thing you have to bear in mind is that they are not going to be getting more criticals than any other fleet. Rather the proportion of criticals to damage will be much higher.

This may be a viable second fleet for me now.

 

[locarno24]

the armour value of 1 for the Darraor Light Frigate is effectively irrelevant ( if i'm reading the rules correctly) as 1 is already a bulkhead hit.

As far as I can tell. That's one comment worth making - the armour values do seem a bit on the low side.

It makes for a very different fleet, I'll agree - rather than shields (which absorb a fixed amount of burnout hits then go kablooie for the turn), armour gives you an ongoing, irreducable damage mitigation (I notice there are no armour criticals anymore!)

One thing you have to bear in mind is that they are not going to be getting more criticals than any other fleet. Rather the proportion of criticals to damage will be much higher.

Actually you do - the hits absorbed by the shields don't generate criticals, after all.


Assume a couple of volleys of 7 light lasers each on a destroyer:

"Normal" destroyer:
Volley 1 - 3.5 hits, 3.5 shields burnt out, 0.5 shields remain
Volley 2 - 3.5 hits, 0.5 shields burnt out, 3 damage
Net: 3 damage plus one critical

"Old Vuldrok" destroyer:
Volley 1 - 3.5 hits, 3 armour hits, 0.5 damage
Volley 2 - 3.5 hits, 3 armour hits, 0.5 damage
Net: 1 damage plus 1/3 of a critical and a lot of swearing from the opponent

"New Vuldrok" destroyer:
Volley 1 - 3.5 hits, 1 bulkhead, 1 damage, 1 critical
Volley 1 - 3.5 hits, 1 bulkhead, 1 damage, 1 critical
Net: 4 damage plus 2 criticals

Okay - Li Halan broadsides are a 'worst case' example, but you do end up taking more damage and more criticals. Now I like this new mechanic, I do. If 'bulkhead hit' means a ship's armour taking the punishment and no structural damage resulting, then that's exactly what armour should be. Equally, taking more criticals is fair enough because (a) 1/6th of criticals are ignored and (b) you're not stopping the damage before it strikes the hull, like shields are.

But the armour values are a bit low. So long as 'a six or more is a critical' is unaffected, armour should probably be as high or higher than equivalent shields - you're taking less structural damage as a tradeoff for taking more criticals. Since criticals are no longer 'bang! headshot!' like they were in 1st or 2nd edition, it's not so big a deal as it might be with the equivalent, Narns or Brakiri.

 

[locarno24]

Had a quick try last night with some vuldrok vs a caliphate fleet. Didn't seem to go too badly; the dreadnought can still tank a disconcerting amount of firepower, especially with the option of the Concealing Rune (which I think is now probably choice no. 1 for a Slatr Konugr-class).

Used a single dreadnought and two destroyers versus a pack of five kurgan destroyers and a light carrier packed with martyr fighters.

The result was pretty close - all five Khangards slammed into a Langskip and took off half the structural damage and slowed it down by a couple of inches but that was it. Wasting two Devastating+1 criticals against the non-existant shields location was not funny.

The Slatr Konugr finished with at least critical 2 on everything (Heat blasters are not funny against unshielded ships either!) but it was still moving and fighting, which is more than can be said for the Kurgan, who were instead busy twitching and dying. The two escorting Langskips were shot down, but by the time that was done the Kurgan had taken too much of a beating and the dreadnought's stealth stopped too much fire for them to turn it around.

 

[katadder]

are they viable without that stealth though?
as thats the main point really.
I think the answer is no. crits straight away, precise weapons ignoring most the armour. nowhere near as good as shields which ignore the 1st number of hits every turn, especially against vuldrok at range who cant even knock them down so have to deal with them for every ships shooting. this was balanced when the old armour gave the vuldrok the same effect with generally 1 less but now, thats my vuldrok gathering dust.

 

[Greg Smith]

But the armour values are a bit low. So long as 'a six or more is a critical' is unaffected, armour should probably be as high or higher than equivalent shields - you're taking less structural damage as a tradeoff for taking more criticals.

When we playtested the original version of the armour, the values were too high so they were brought down to the current levels.

We have playtested a similar armour rule with Romulans in ACTA SF. Armour 2 has almost negligable effect.

I agree the armour value needs to go up. But more testing is required.

 

[Iron Domokun]

We have playtested a similar armour rule with Romulans in ACTA SF. Armour 2 has almost negligible effect.

And the Romulan ships have shields as well, unlike the Vuldrok.

 

[Greg Smith]

We have playtested a similar armour rule with Romulans in ACTA SF. Armour 2 has almost negligible effect.

And the Romulan ships have shields as well, unlike the Vuldrok.

Yes. The armoured Romulans had relatively low damage but honking great shields.

 

[katadder]

I dont think there was a problem with the last editionof the Vuldrok as yes their armour couldnt be knocked down, but then until really close range they cant knock an opponents shields down, and opponents have more shields than vuldrok had armour.
this change came a bit out of the blue as havent seen anything new on NA in ages for testing.

 

[Greg Smith]

The problem with the previous armour was that even a horde of frigates could do no damage at all to the biggest Vuldrok ships. Whereas they can take down the shields and do damage against bigger ships of other races.

 

[katadder]

you could say the same about a swarm of vuldrok frigates on the bigger ships of most fleets as they cannot knock down the shields (unless get within 8") and also have range 12.
vuldrok frigates have no defence now against anything precise as well as being at least double outrange on lasers (or more for li halan). yet they have the same hull and damage as other frigates. and light frigates have no defence at all.
seems to be another kneejerk reaction with no actual testing, out of the blue as I said before.

 

[Greg Smith]

no actual testing, out of the blue

I agree.

 

[MongooseMatt]

no actual testing, out of the blue

I agree.

Now, come on, you two - we have had words with people who, in the pastk, have attacked both of you as playtesters. I would expect you to treat other playtesters with the same respect.

We are not saying this is _the_ Vuldrok list. We have posted it to see what people think (though we would prefer them to let us know after they have tried it on the table).

FWIW, most of the playtesting done with this fleet was against Li Halan, as they had been identified as the fleet most likely to give the Vuldrok an issue.

As for the Dreadnought needing Stealth to survive... No. Just... no. I was 'this' close to giving it a points bump (since been convinced otherwise).

 

[katadder]

it does need stealth to survive.
and against li halan how did you ever publish it unless the li halan player was not playing well, which i doubt as it was probably andy and hes quite good. and in all honesty I wasnt slating any playtesters as it looked like a pulled out of the blue change with no testing.
against li halan anything smaller than a destroyer has no armour, the dreadnought effectively has armour 2. so 1/3 bounce, 1/3 crit.

it was out of the blue though matt, did email you asking about it but no response so joined in conversation here saying my thoughts on it.

which are: the vuldrok are screwed.

 

[asodohatch]

One thing that has just occured to me is that the smaller Vildrok ship are actually quite a lot better off than you might think nder the new rules. The change to the Close Blast Doors special action are ideally suited to use by the 2 Frigates and the Galliot. They all have only port/starboard weapon systems, and are unlikely to often be in a position to fire both simultaniously, thus the negative effect of the special agtion is largely irrelevant. The addition of 50% damage reduction after armour is very powerful indeed, especially for the Galliot, which ignores 50% of damage already due to its armor.

 

[IraShaine1972]

which are: the vuldrok are screwed.

Didn't he just get done saying that these are NOT final rules? Why do gamers get so worked up over a testing issue? Isn't that the purpose of it in the first place?