New Scout Rules vs Drone Limits

For the Kizinti, the key is taking a decent scout capacity as well since for them, the use of a scout channel allows an extra attack above the three attack limit so they can toss 4 at a target. The ideal target would of course be the Gorn CLS.

Now that Scouts are in the game (although the rules are not set and likely will be changing), it is borderline suicide to go into a game with a serious negative scout channel imbalance.
 
Also don't forget the "Anti-Plasma" scout function is the Counter Jam. This can granting a ship a die modifer to hit or a Stealth Score of +6 that it did not have it before, choose wisely. Also that Stealth Score is in effect against -ALL- Weapons fired at it so that includes Phaser, Disruptors, Photons, Drones as well as Plasma. There may well need to be some tweaking to scouts things like change the Counter Drone to it stops d6 AD of Drones instead of all or, raise the Steath score to 5+. Only playing with the rules will tell.
 
McKinstry said:
For the Kizinti, the key is taking a decent scout capacity as well since for them, the use of a scout channel allows an extra attack above the three attack limit so they can toss 4 at a target. The ideal target would of course be the Gorn CLS.

Now that Scouts are in the game (although the rules are not set and likely will be changing), it is borderline suicide to go into a game with a serious negative scout channel imbalance.

If the Kzinti's enemy uses counter drone on the Kzinti Scout, they are back to 3 drone ship limits, and if they are using a level 3 or 4 Scout they have shutdown the entire drone ship wave. (Assuming there were only 4 ship capable of firing drone)
 
Asguard101 said:
McKinstry said:
For the Kizinti, the key is taking a decent scout capacity as well since for them, the use of a scout channel allows an extra attack above the three attack limit so they can toss 4 at a target. The ideal target would of course be the Gorn CLS.

Now that Scouts are in the game (although the rules are not set and likely will be changing), it is borderline suicide to go into a game with a serious negative scout channel imbalance.

If the Kzinti's enemy uses counter drone on the Kzinti Scout, they are back to 3 drone ship limits, and if they are using a level 3 or 4 Scout they have shutdown the entire drone ship wave. (Assuming there were only 4 ship capable of firing drone)

Using counterdrone on a scout does not affect its' scout abilities, it just affects the drones the scout itself can launch. A scout uses the Drone Control function against an enemy ship and that simply allows one more drone attack, from any firer (subject to normal range and LOS) up to four.

None of the scout functions affect the ability of a scout to use its' channels although some can neutralize the effect of that one channel. If the Kzinti deploy a Scout 3 when the Gorn deploy a Scout 4, depending on initiative the overall effect of the scouts will be relatively even depending on the size of the battle. With 12 ships per side, the Gorn could in theory use 4 counterdrone and prevent 4 Kzinti ships from getting in attacks but at the same time, the Kzinti could use 2 channels to allow the remaining ship to gang up with 2 x 4 wave attacks plus either jam or counterjam to either reduce the effectiveness of attack or protect one Kzinti with jamming coverage for -1 against all attacks against it.

All in all, in larger battles it can be a wash but in smaller (under 8 ships) it could be a dramatic difference maker. It is interesting that a Scout 3 Kzinti costs 180 and that Scout 4 Gorn is 160.
 
OK, so I've got the hard back edition, but I have no idea what the scout ships look like or what Scout Channels actually refers to. So where do I go to find this information as well as what the new Scout ships look like?
 
The present Scout rules have just been changed for those relased in the recent ACAT journal - however they are also being negotiated with some heat mainly to od with LOS rules and similar.

They are not generally avialable as yet but will be in the next supplement.

The rules in the hardback do work but are not "SFU" - you are not missing out at present as all the Scout ships are also in the journal.

The new rules do look interesting and have some nice ideas but as usual its about getting it right now interms of points, balance and comprehension.
 
The in the call to arms journal are not tournament legal so far (according to ADB and Mongoose) - so I view them as advanced beta test level (ie nearly ready).

They are supposed to appear in full in future supplements, so stick with the current rules unless you have to want to spend a fiver to get the ships and rules from the Journal
 
Asguard101 said:
I was under the impression that the 4th ship was the Scout itself, I guess I was wrong on that.

I was under that impression too.

If the Scout level had been 2 or maybe even 3 in our game, I think things would have been a bit more fair. Not saying the Kzinti had no chance, but it would have taken a great game with a really good player to have pulled it off. Maybe not totally unfair considering the converse would have been true before these scout rules came out - but the CLS with a scout of 4 is just a touch too high in my book (and honestly outside the self imposed limits they wrote in the "Scout X" trait description). Scout 3 should be tops for ships.

-Tim
 
Read the first sentence. "...may attack... with its drones..."

So the scout can only add its own drone to go over the 3 ship limit.
 
AdmiralGrafSpee said:
Asguard101 said:
I was under the impression that the 4th ship was the Scout itself, I guess I was wrong on that.

I was under that impression too.

If the Scout level had been 2 or maybe even 3 in our game, I think things would have been a bit more fair. Not saying the Kzinti had no chance, but it would have taken a great game with a really good player to have pulled it off. Maybe not totally unfair considering the converse would have been true before these scout rules came out - but the CLS with a scout of 4 is just a touch too high in my book (and honestly outside the self imposed limits they wrote in the "Scout X" trait description). Scout 3 should be tops for ships.

-Tim

I'm OK with an ELINT heavy ship at least for a late war scenario and if anyone needs a break, it's the lizards. I don't see scouts as decisive if the total channel ( think channel = actions ) difference isn't huge or as I said, in decent sized games. At 4 to 0 in a large to medium large sized game, that is four drone waves per turn the Kzinti have cancelled but if they have say three channels available, in a game with 8+ ships per side, that is one Gorn that will take 4 waves each plus two Kzinti that will be at -1 for everything that shoots at it for one turn which, if the scout is in range to get shot at, is probably saved for itself and one other.
 
Rambler said:
Read the first sentence. "...may attack... with its drones..."

So the scout can only add its own drone to go over the 3 ship limit.

Well, its good to see everyone is in agreement aobut what is considered the 4th ship.
 
Asguard101 said:
McKinstry said:
New suggested changes have just been posted by SVC over on the ADB discussion board in the Mongoose JV section.

What are the suggestions?

I assuming this is OK to post........(copy and paste)

Current theory is this....

=====
Scouting for Ships

As a preview of what will appear in the forthcoming Battle Groups supplement for A Call to Arms: Star Fleet, we present to you scouts for the five main fleets currently in the game. Scouts are fun ships to include in your fleet. While most give up heavy weapons, their Scout trait allows them to act as ‘force multipliers,’ making the rest of your fleet more effective.

The Scout trait in the rulebook should be replaced with the following;

Scout X: This ship has been designed specifically for gathering intelligence, relaying it back to friendly ships, and conducting electronic warfare on enemy fleets. The presence of just one scout ship can make an entire fleet fight far more effectively. A ship with the Scout trait can perform a number of functions during a battle equal to its Scout score. A fleet with at least one Scout ship on the map facing an enemy with no Scout ships will gain a +1 bonus to its Initiative.

During each turn, in place of performing any Special Actions, a Scout ship can perform a number of the following functions equal to its Scout score. These functions are declared when the Scout is moved, as if they were Special Actions. Each function has a Scouting Target that requires the Scout to have line of sight to it and be within 36".

If any Scout functions are used in a turn, the Scout ship may only fire drones, anti-drones, or phasers-3. Phasers-2 and phasers-1 may be fired, but only defensively. A Scout cannot use more than one of its functions on a single target in a single turn.

Ships with the Immobile trait may fire all weapons as normal. Cloaked ships may not use any Scout functions but will grant its fleet the +1 Initiative bonus if the enemy fleet has no Scout.

Jamming
The Scout ship may select any one enemy ship as a Scouting Target and impose a –1 penalty on all Attack Dice it rolls this turn. Alternatively, a friendly ship (including the Scout ship itself) may be selected as a Scouting Target instead; any enemy Attack Dice rolled against it will suffer a –1 penalty. No ship may have either form of Jamming imposed upon it by any single fleet more than once in a turn. A single ship can be the target of both an enemy scout and the beneficiary of a friendly scout at the same time. Jamming cannot be used on a cloaked ship. Jamming of a single ship by Scouts from multiple fleets will suffer no cumulative effects

Counter-Jamming
The Scout ship may remove the effects of Jamming from any one Scouting Target (friendly or enemy).
ADDED FOR SFU COMPLIANCE: SCOUT MUST HAVE LOS TO ENEMY SHIP AND TO ANY FRIENDLY SHIP WHICH WANTS TO BENEFIT FROM THE SCOUT'S ACTION.

Counter-Drone
The Scout ship may cause all Attack Dice of drones launched by a Scouting Target to miss, whatever range they are launched at.
ADDED FOR SFU COMPLIANCE: THE ACTUAL SCOUT-TARGET IS SELECTED AS A DEFENSIVE ACTION AT THE TIME THAT TARGET LAUNCHES.
NOTE FROM DAL THIS MORNING FOR SFU COMPLIANCE AND TACTICAL GAME BALANCE: SHOULD BE A DIE ROLL OF 1D6 OF DRONE AD REMOVED, NOT ALL OF IT.

Drone Control
The Scout ship may attack Scouting Target with its drones, even if the enemy has been attacked by three other ships firing drones. Only one Scout ship can do this against any one target.

Reconnaissance
Any Information Points the Scout ship gathers in this turn will be doubled.

Illumination
The scout ship may select any one cloaked Scouting Target which will suffer a –1 penalty to its Stealth rolls. Once one Scout ship has illuminated a Scouting Target, any further illumination has no effect.

[[[ Box text added to Ships section ]]]

The following units from the core rulebook also have the Scout trait, as detailed below.

Battlestation: Scout 3
Base Station: Scout 2
 
D6 is also still way overpowered for the SFU compliance they cite.....I quite agree that all of them on scout channel is totally over the top.

In SFB (yes yes I know its FC thats the core, but I dont know it anything like as well) its 3 drone kill attempts per sensor, and each has a 50/50 chance - so average of 1.5 drones taken out per channel - scout trait value works out at just over one sensor per rating (though its not 100% accurate) - for me thats sufficient justification round up - for me the expected value I came up with was 2drones (ie 2AD) taken out per attempt - so when I saw all and then D6 I thought 'wahay' super scouts - though I would hope the pointing had been done to take that into account.
 
I wouldn't see D6 AD removed as super scouts, and that's even with me coming from FC where scouts only kill a single drone per sensor.

Drones are so different to SFB/FC that any direct comparison to those games has to be taken with a pinch of salt. I can't evade them, I can't auto kill with Ph1s, freindly help is dubious, they never run out (unlike my ADDs).

With D6 AD there is still a 50% chance I have to deal with some drones from standard kzinti ship with 4AD. It does feel more in line with FC/SFB - a single sensor can not just shut out a entire ships worth of drones. Compliance clearly cannot just mean excctly the same in this game, it has to take into account this game system and its affects on balance.
 
Having not yet had a chance to play with the scout rules (old or new) everything below is purely speculation and should be considered as such.

I've seen comments alluding to a 200% improvement in drone-killing abilities. This is based off the Fed Comm 50% chance to stop 3 drones rule, so it is a valid arguement.
I've also seen (much earlier and before they were down-graded) similar arguements about always hitting, 36 inch range, unlimted ammo drones.

Seems almost right that if the drones are increased 200% in killing ability, then the scouts should experience a similar increase in power / ability. :mrgreen:

Now before the flame war starts... remember, this is pure speculation on my part. I've not had occasion to field a Gorn CLS against a Kzinti fleet. When I do, I may be saying OMG! WTF! myself.
There will be some play testing with drones in our group in the near future and reports will be made.

I must admit though, from a purely personal opinion - I like the d6 AD of drones killed rule an I hope playtesting bears it out. But until I get some real games against real opponents under my belt (both fielding scoutsand defending against scouts), I will endeavor to keep an open mind.
 
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