New rules for jump points to tone down JPB

[mollari_uk]

We looking to prevent Jump Point Bombs being a problem in our games and were thinking of rules to make them available but limited.

The main issue is that this is a free heavy damage weapon that can't be avoided by any strategy (except not being on the board I suppose) and is especially deadly when used with mulitple ships that can be cheap so never need to be brought on (Bluestars for example).

So my idea is to make Jump Point declarations (into real space) at the start of the movement phase. This way all ships get to move out of the way if possible.

Can anyone see any issues with this, or come up with other solutions?

 

[Burger]

Just ban them. Or make then scenario-specific.

Or make then like they are in the series: only very experienced Sharlins can use them, they can only be used in an asteroid field, and the enemy has to be positioned exactly in a pre-determined location.

 

[Triggy]

In second ed. I've never had an issue with JPBs, the positional advantage of placing jump points elsewhere usually outweighs the downsides but when it doesn't, unless the enemy has packed their fleet tightly, it isn't a game-changing tactic.

 

[Foxmeister]

Given you have to make a CQ test against a target value of 10, it's by no means certain to come off anyway. Of course, you can always keep a load of Blue Stars in hyperspace, and try with each of them to increase your chances of pulling it off.

Regards,

Dave

 

[mollari_uk]

In second ed. I've never had an issue with JPBs, the positional advantage of placing jump points elsewhere usually outweighs the downsides but when it doesn't, unless the enemy has packed their fleet tightly, it isn't a game-changing tactic.

You obviously haven't faced an ISA player, or not one who's worked this out:

Try facing Blue Stars in squadrons, they only need one with 6 CQ. They could place 1 of those JP's where they actually want to come out away from you and the other 4 on your ship(s). You've no defence, they've no risk.

50% of them will make it, that's a 16 AD TD attack!

 

[Lord David the Denied]

How do they get a CQ6 Blue Star, except in campaigns?

 

[GhostRecon]

Speaking of which... since its _just_ 8 AD TD, can interceptors/dodge/etc block it..?(!)

And in standard games, with the ISA's +1 to CQ and the Blue Star's Flight Computer, you'll only see a CQ of 5.

I can see the potential of taking a horde of Blue Stars and just jump point bombing an enemy fleet, but built as a centerpoint of one's strategy or just as an augmentation, its a bit of a gimmick.

8 AD of TD dice isn't terribly frightening in the context of its complete lack of AP/SAP, so it can do some damage, but not overly crippling or damaging, particularly when you consider that even the ISA, in standard games, need a 5+, AJE, and a Scout on the table. Its biggest element is the "surprise' and "shock" of Jump Point Bombing a target. Not exactly the game-ending, overpowering attack it can seem to be.

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

In second ed. I've never had an issue with JPBs, the positional advantage of placing jump points elsewhere usually outweighs the downsides but when it doesn't, unless the enemy has packed their fleet tightly, it isn't a game-changing tactic.

You obviously haven't faced an ISA player, or not one who's worked this out:

Try facing Blue Stars in squadrons, they only need one with 6 CQ. They could place 1 of those JP's where they actually want to come out away from you and the other 4 on your ship(s). You've no defence, they've no risk.

50% of them will make it, that's a 16 AD TD attack!

Don't forget that you also HAVE to have a scout already on the table, not hard for the ISA I know, but its ANOTHER condition to be met. Also, being in a squadron only allows you to use the CQ value of the highest CQ ship, not make one roll for all 5 ships. This was a ruling told to me at the earth centauri war, straight from the MGP mouth, and its the way squadrons are to be played. It means that its just a little bit harder for him to get ALL of the JPB's off. Also you can only have 4 ships in a squadron, thats the benefit of the dilgar pentacon, you are allowed 5.

If you are still concerned that they are unfair, I'd ask the person that is running the campaign, to look at banning them. In the however many games our club has played since 2ed was released, I don't think ANYONE, has actually bothered trying to JPB. I think 9 times out of 10 you can actually gain a more tactically advantageous position by not using a JPB.

 

[Ripple]

Wonder who keeps leaving the can opener around.... damn worm cans...

Why they are unfair -
no risk, and given you can use any jump point to enter the table (and ajp doesn't deviate so no risk there either) as long as you have at least one spare your golden.

no hiding place... many initiative sink and scout units depend on stealth, range and placement to survive, jpb negates it all, and the lack of ap/sap is meaningless against the smaller hull 4 scouts.

compare... my new drazi ship will have a one shot 'mortar', I can hit anywhere on the table, but only once and only if I have a scout on the table and make my cq check. It has a radius and does triple damage... I would never be able to get that past folks, but every ship with ajp in the game comes with one.

As to fixes for it if you don't like it... best one we came up with is the player who wants to use it has to declare where he wants to place it before the game starts... x feet from this edge y feet from that edge. It best reflects the idea we see of them actually using it in the movie of having to lure the enemy to a predetermined point.

That said it isn't often a game breaker in part because folks haven't tried to make it one. Much like the Sag, which was fine for a long time, until someone said 'let me show you how it's done'... and campaigns make it more viable due to the appearance of CQ 6 units. Making a rule and not at least putting a nod to campaign isn't a good idea.

Ripple

 

[Triggy]

Ripple, I still don't see them as unfair - they're built into the "cost" of the ship and there are disadvantages to it as outlined above. Particularly when the majority of missions don't allow for hyperspace to be used.

 

[Ripple]

Wasn't really trying to convince anyone Triggy...

I don't know that I agree that it is built into the cost. The whitestar seems to do just fine without being able to jump in... so where is the cost factored in that under special occasion x it can do special action y. The point system just isn't fine enough for you to tell me that something that rare has any meaningful impact on the cost of the ships.

Lots of scenarios don't allow for certain actions or ships to be fully utilized, but when they do they can be very unfun. Play blockade at 5 raid vs whitestars... nothing fun in it if the whitestar is the runner. Same can be siad of any campaign game that is going to allow the bluestar drop blast of doom.

Full squadron of bluestars with a CQ 6 lead can really put an end to some scenarios. Not by itself, but can change the balance of position and power very quickly, in enough cases that I find it unpleasant to contemplate a campaign vs an ISA player. One JPB, no issue... minor effect, but a stack of them... different level of play.

But like I said... can of worms... well traveled ground... just don't see how the pl system could come even close to accurately covering the ability, given how often it can't be used, which to me makes it unpaid for, especially when I look at the ships that can do it and don't see any glaring weakness (other than to e-mines stacks... stealth and dodge breaking...).

Ripple

 

[akenatum]

The only real downside i see to the jpb is the ammount of turns your without your initiative sinks, and without that firepower (if using a larger ships)

 

[Burger]

Ripple, I still don't see them as unfair - they're built into the "cost" of the ship and there are disadvantages to it as outlined above. Particularly when the majority of missions don't allow for hyperspace to be used.

If they are built into the cost of the ship, what's unfair is that you can only use the ship to its full potential in the minority of scenarios!

The only real downside i see to the jpb is the ammount of turns your without your initiative sinks, and without that firepower (if using a larger ships)

They still work as initiative sinks. They perform the special action Initiate Jump Point. Squadron in turn 1 to get the CQ bonus, then break squadron in turn 2 to be init sinks. In fact they are better than standard init sinks, because they cannot be chased down and killed!

 

[mollari_uk]

Sorry for opening up the discussion on this again but I wasn't asking for a discussion on whether JPB is too powerful (although you have all provided interesting points). I just wanted to know a good way of toning them down without banning them as we've already decided that it is too powerful.

My idea of declaring JP's at the start of the movement phase also effects other ships. My intention is also to reflect the show that everyone can detect a JP forming and should be able to move out of the way if capable, not just if you go later in the turn.

So, anyone see an issue with this?

 

[Hash]

My idea of declaring JP's at the start of the movement phase also effects other ships. My intention is also to reflect the show that everyone can detect a JP forming and should be able to move out of the way if capable, not just if you go later in the turn.

I think what gets people is the "no risk" part of the equation. If you add an element that allows a choice element, I see no reason why that wouldn't make the rule much better. Go for it and maybe report back how you found it

 

[Ripple]

I agree, its the 'no risk' element that most irritates and is easiest to fix.

My question on announcing at the beginning is would you then only be able to jump ships that effectively have fixed end points to their move? I don't see that as unreasonable (much like mass drivers in first ed).

My earlier point about a fixed point on the table decided before hand but not revealed was harsher, but similar in effect in limitation. I think it reflects the movie well (origin of the jump point bomb) and the show well (we only see someone try to 'clear' a jump point area in the movie and fail, so hard to see 'dodging' away with most ships).

Ripple