New rule: disengaging from dog fights
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Greg Smith
Mongoose
How about you may move 1" away, however the flight that you disengage from is allowed a free shot (stealth does not apply, dodge does).
Are you talking about when first engaged or if they have survived the previous turn in a dogfight?
I guess its only worth doing if you have won initiative or the fighter you are engaged with is also engaged with another fighter, as otherwise they just follow you and jump on you again?
Also can the disengaging fighter still fire at enemy craft (or even the fighter its just disengaged from?)
Should there be a modifier for trying to disengage from mutiple enemies - ie 3 Starfury's jump a Nial?
I guess its only worth doing if you have won initiative or the fighter you are engaged with is also engaged with another fighter, as otherwise they just follow you and jump on you again?
Also can the disengaging fighter still fire at enemy craft (or even the fighter its just disengaged from?)
Should there be a modifier for trying to disengage from mutiple enemies - ie 3 Starfury's jump a Nial?
Presumably it applies only if you've been in dogfight one round and survived, but there is still a fighter stuck to you. For example, you drew, or there were several fighters in contact and at least one is still there.
If you move fighters second and the other player chooses to remain in dogfight, I'd say you can't disengage - he's effectively moved (back) into dogfight with you this turn. If you move first, you can try to disengage. The fighter from which you disengaged then has the options during the other player's movement phase to either move to dogfight you again or take a free shot. However, if you disengage one fighter and then move another to dogfight the enemy, he can not move or shoot.
3 Auroras vs. 1 Nial, the Nial survives and tries to disengage; the Auroras can all get a free shot at the Nial. However, if one or more of the Auroras chases and resumes dogfight, those that do not chase can not shoot at the Nial because it is now in dogfight again.
3 Auroras vs. 1 Nial, one of the Auroras disengages; the Nial can not follow or shoot at it because it's still stuck dogfighting the other two.
If you move fighters second and the other player chooses to remain in dogfight, I'd say you can't disengage - he's effectively moved (back) into dogfight with you this turn. If you move first, you can try to disengage. The fighter from which you disengaged then has the options during the other player's movement phase to either move to dogfight you again or take a free shot. However, if you disengage one fighter and then move another to dogfight the enemy, he can not move or shoot.
3 Auroras vs. 1 Nial, the Nial survives and tries to disengage; the Auroras can all get a free shot at the Nial. However, if one or more of the Auroras chases and resumes dogfight, those that do not chase can not shoot at the Nial because it is now in dogfight again.
3 Auroras vs. 1 Nial, one of the Auroras disengages; the Nial can not follow or shoot at it because it's still stuck dogfighting the other two.
what i'm trying to reflect is whats seen in Battlestar galactica
where dogfights can effectively be disengaged from by Vipers...with what looks like very few if any combat loses
currently the rules don't allow a victor or a pilot skilled enough to fend off a greater number of inferior pilots to disengage
maybe i should better refect this with a special order (just for fighters but carried out by their carrier)
called "Combat Landings!" which automatically/CQ 7+ gives the Colonial fighters the fighter intiative next turn and gives them for that next turn only the afterburners trait (50% extra move). However they must head back to their carrier and cannot exectute attacks.
where dogfights can effectively be disengaged from by Vipers...with what looks like very few if any combat loses
currently the rules don't allow a victor or a pilot skilled enough to fend off a greater number of inferior pilots to disengage
maybe i should better refect this with a special order (just for fighters but carried out by their carrier)
called "Combat Landings!" which automatically/CQ 7+ gives the Colonial fighters the fighter intiative next turn and gives them for that next turn only the afterburners trait (50% extra move). However they must head back to their carrier and cannot exectute attacks.
I've never liked the way you kinda get locked into dogfights. It's silly.
If you survive you should be able to move normaly the next turn if you win initiative. Faster fighters should be able to chase down the retreating fighter. But if you are faster it won't matter but you probably won't be moving in the direction you want & closer to enemies capital ships generally means more fighters.
You also should be able to shoot at ships instead of initiating a dogfight. I certainly would engage a fighter when im making a attack run on a target. It's their job to get you so why make it easier.
I personly believe ACTA has fighters quite wrong. Fighters are fast & even the slowest should be faster than a captial ship, maybe exceptions should be whitestars & similar ships on APTE.
If you survive you should be able to move normaly the next turn if you win initiative. Faster fighters should be able to chase down the retreating fighter. But if you are faster it won't matter but you probably won't be moving in the direction you want & closer to enemies capital ships generally means more fighters.
You also should be able to shoot at ships instead of initiating a dogfight. I certainly would engage a fighter when im making a attack run on a target. It's their job to get you so why make it easier.
I personly believe ACTA has fighters quite wrong. Fighters are fast & even the slowest should be faster than a captial ship, maybe exceptions should be whitestars & similar ships on APTE.
I don't remember any on-screen evidence that fighters are faster than capital ships. More manouverable and higher acceleration, sure, that is how even Delta-V's are able to whizz circles around capital ships. That is represented by SM and moving last. But where are fighters shown to be faster?
I would allow fighters to disengage from a dogfight, but the enemy would get a free attack, the retreater can't use dodge or stealth because he is running away! Otherwise it could be too powerful, and potentially exploited. For example my Sky Serpent and Star Snake come in to attack a Sulust, and your Razik moves to dogfight them both. My Sky Serpent could disengage, leaving the Star Snake battling with the Razik, and go on to attack the Sulust.
It might work in the context of BSG though, there are fewer fighter types so it's easier to test
I would allow fighters to disengage from a dogfight, but the enemy would get a free attack, the retreater can't use dodge or stealth because he is running away! Otherwise it could be too powerful, and potentially exploited. For example my Sky Serpent and Star Snake come in to attack a Sulust, and your Razik moves to dogfight them both. My Sky Serpent could disengage, leaving the Star Snake battling with the Razik, and go on to attack the Sulust.
It might work in the context of BSG though, there are fewer fighter types so it's easier to test
They are always zooming past ships including whitestars. That is faster. They always zoom out in front of the capital ships. Fighters clash & then the ships.
I have no problem with the example you gave. It's the Star snake job to engage the Razik & leave the Serpent ready to engage.
If there was 2 Raziks then 1 would be free to engage the serpent. I presuming the Snakes was escorting otherwise the Razik could choose to engage the Serpent. If the Razik didn't kill the Serpent, why try for as dogfight roll when you are range of the massive ship if front of you.
Why remove the dodge as the fighter has already tried & failed to kill it in a dogfight. He just wasn't good enough.
Fighters don't engage in a static dogfight. If you aren't in a good position you don't try to engage you get out of there.
I have no problem with the example you gave. It's the Star snake job to engage the Razik & leave the Serpent ready to engage.
If there was 2 Raziks then 1 would be free to engage the serpent. I presuming the Snakes was escorting otherwise the Razik could choose to engage the Serpent. If the Razik didn't kill the Serpent, why try for as dogfight roll when you are range of the massive ship if front of you.
Why remove the dodge as the fighter has already tried & failed to kill it in a dogfight. He just wasn't good enough.
Fighters don't engage in a static dogfight. If you aren't in a good position you don't try to engage you get out of there.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
It still boggles me how fighters work in ACtA. When I was playing with Taren I kept scratching my head and questioning the rules. Its just crude.
I don't think fighters should be 'stuck' in dogfights, ever. A possible way to resolve disengaging fighters would to allow for an 'attack of opportunity' given to fighters that are being disengaged. For those that aren't familiar with the term, attacks of opportunity exist in DnD and occur when one character moves move than 5' while in the threat range of another character. It is basically a free attack against the moving character.
Example:
Flights attempting to disengage from dogfights move first.
Flight A is dogfighting with Flight B. Flight A attempts to disengage from the dogfight. Flight B is given an attack against Flight A. Flight A can use all their standard defenses against the attack. If the attack succeeds, flight A is destroyed. If the attack fails, then Flight A moves.
Since the disengaging flights move FIRST, if Flight B is faster that Flight A, Flight B can still move and reengage flight A in a dogfight.
I also believe that Fighters should be capable of 'escorting' in a sense. If something already exists for what I'm about to type, please point it out to me.
Fighters can act as escorts to other fighter flights. Any fighter flight in base contact with another friendly fighter flight may act as an escort. If an opposing fighter flight attempts to dogfight a flight with friendly fighters in base contact, one of the friendly fighters may be substituted in the dog fight.
Maybe there is already a mechanic that I'm not aware of that acts like this, but I should be able to shield my bombers from attacks using other fighters and allow my bombers to continue on to attack their intended targets. If I have some firebolts moving along with some Auroras, an enemy force should have to first overwhelm my Auroras before they have a chance to engage my Firebolts.
So, if I have 3 Auroras moving together with a Firebolt flight you would have to engage with 4 flights of fighters in order to keep my Firebolt from firing at a ship. The first 3 flights would dogfight the Auroras and the last would be free to engage the Firebolt.
Does that make sense?
I don't think fighters should be 'stuck' in dogfights, ever. A possible way to resolve disengaging fighters would to allow for an 'attack of opportunity' given to fighters that are being disengaged. For those that aren't familiar with the term, attacks of opportunity exist in DnD and occur when one character moves move than 5' while in the threat range of another character. It is basically a free attack against the moving character.
Example:
Flights attempting to disengage from dogfights move first.
Flight A is dogfighting with Flight B. Flight A attempts to disengage from the dogfight. Flight B is given an attack against Flight A. Flight A can use all their standard defenses against the attack. If the attack succeeds, flight A is destroyed. If the attack fails, then Flight A moves.
Since the disengaging flights move FIRST, if Flight B is faster that Flight A, Flight B can still move and reengage flight A in a dogfight.
I also believe that Fighters should be capable of 'escorting' in a sense. If something already exists for what I'm about to type, please point it out to me.
Fighters can act as escorts to other fighter flights. Any fighter flight in base contact with another friendly fighter flight may act as an escort. If an opposing fighter flight attempts to dogfight a flight with friendly fighters in base contact, one of the friendly fighters may be substituted in the dog fight.
Maybe there is already a mechanic that I'm not aware of that acts like this, but I should be able to shield my bombers from attacks using other fighters and allow my bombers to continue on to attack their intended targets. If I have some firebolts moving along with some Auroras, an enemy force should have to first overwhelm my Auroras before they have a chance to engage my Firebolts.
So, if I have 3 Auroras moving together with a Firebolt flight you would have to engage with 4 flights of fighters in order to keep my Firebolt from firing at a ship. The first 3 flights would dogfight the Auroras and the last would be free to engage the Firebolt.
Does that make sense?
If you're only allowed to disengage from a dogfight you survived last turn, not from a dogfight which has been declared this turn, then it should not be too powerful.
Using the same example again, Razik dogfights Sky Serpent and Star Snake at once. (What probably happened was that the Centauri got to move first, the Razik jumped the Sky Serpent, then the Star Snake jumped the Razik. If the Drazi had moved first then the Star Snake would have jumped the Razik, which being now stuck in a dogfight, could not go after the Sky Serpent.) Razik attacks Sky Serpent, Star Snake assists; then Star Snake attacks Razik, Sky Serpent assists. Dice are rigged so both attacks are draws. Next turn the Drazi get to move first; Sky Serpent disengages, Star Snake continues to dogfight Razik, so Razik can't get a free shot and can't chase the Sky Serpent.
Re-run the scenario but this time the Razik draws when it attacks the Sky Serpent, then wins when attacked by the Star Snake. Next turn the Drazi get to move first; Sky Serpent disengages, Razik gets a free shot, then can chase after and dogfight the Sky Serpent again.
Using the same example again, Razik dogfights Sky Serpent and Star Snake at once. (What probably happened was that the Centauri got to move first, the Razik jumped the Sky Serpent, then the Star Snake jumped the Razik. If the Drazi had moved first then the Star Snake would have jumped the Razik, which being now stuck in a dogfight, could not go after the Sky Serpent.) Razik attacks Sky Serpent, Star Snake assists; then Star Snake attacks Razik, Sky Serpent assists. Dice are rigged so both attacks are draws. Next turn the Drazi get to move first; Sky Serpent disengages, Star Snake continues to dogfight Razik, so Razik can't get a free shot and can't chase the Sky Serpent.
Re-run the scenario but this time the Razik draws when it attacks the Sky Serpent, then wins when attacked by the Star Snake. Next turn the Drazi get to move first; Sky Serpent disengages, Razik gets a free shot, then can chase after and dogfight the Sky Serpent again.
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