New Mercenary and ships...

[sideranautae]

ISS has been up there for ages now, and has not been mission killed by a micrometeorite. Voyager probes also have not been killed. Some probes have made it through Saturn's rings an survived. I don't see micrometeorites as such a huge issue it needs super armour to counter them.

That's because they don't hit the micrometeorites at hundreds or thousands of KM/sec. If they did, they'd be destroyed. Apples to boulders.

It would be like saying, "I ran into the door while walking at 2 mph and didn't get hurt. So, I don't think running my body into a door at 10,000 mph would be a big deal. :lol:

 

[Dracous]

ISS has been up there for ages now, and has not been mission killed by a micrometeorite. Voyager probes also have not been killed. Some probes have made it through Saturn's rings an survived. I don't see micrometeorites as such a huge issue it needs super armour to counter them.

That's because they don't hit the micrometeorites at hundreds or thousands of KM/sec. If they did, they'd be destroyed. Apples to boulders.

It would be like saying, "I ran into the door while walking at 2 mph and didn't get hurt. So, I don't think running my body into a door at 10,000 mph would be a big deal. :lol:

OK, I''ll admit i am learning here as I go along. And I have learned that micrometeoroids travel at tens of KM per second, and our fastest spacecraft is voyager at 17km/s. So we are not talking about the same sort of velocity here.

However, I also learned that new horizons approach to pluto has a 0.3% chance of encountering micrometeroids. Does not seem that high a chance, but they are worried enough about it.

I have also learned about the fantastic properties of Whipple Armor. Which can be argued to come standard on starships. But now we get into all kinds of complicated areas. Ares that my limited background will have issues with comprehending.

But here is what I have learned.

1. Micrometeoroids, from what I can tell, are small. Less than 1cm.
2. ISS multi-layer armour is designed to withstand a 1cm ball of aluminium.
3. Ballistics is a complicated science. The effects of hyper velocity impactors has not been studied in such detail as we can safely assume what sort of armour may be required for the higher velocity impacts. The higher velocity of the impactor in deep space my impart more energy to the first layer of Whipple Armour, but that may not translate into a requirement to too many more layers, but again I don't know.
4. Objects over the size of 1cm will pose a serious threat to the ISS. Larger objects are dodged.

However, what does occur to me, is that we are discussing Armour. So it seems to me that the best way to handle personal scale to starship scale, is to assume that starship armor of zero, has a personal value of X, and increases by a factor of Y for every level of starship armour applied.

However, I still cannot find it easy to accept that the starship armour factor level zero is so super that it is invulnerable to all the non-DD weapons listed.

To highlight the issues. Lets build a 10 ton spacecraft at TL7. We are Fission powerplant, anti-grav thrusters at 1-G (it's allowable), armed with a pule laser turret, and a crew member. No armor, all remianing space used on fuel. We now have a vehicle, which is compatible in size with most tanks, (actually smaller than the TL-12 grav tank listed in supplement 05-06). I could design this to look like a tank.

This weapon system is unbeatable at TL7-9 by any vehicle. (OK, we might have a chance with large wet navy ships mounting huge guns). It is a weapons system that is available at TL-7 that makes the vehicle design system seem a little redundant. Most of the high tech grav tank designs could not beat it.

My point, if we accept spacecraft invulnerability to non-DD weapons, we have an issue with either our vehicle design or our spacecraft design.

It seems that we urgently need a "High Guard Edition 2" which includes a ruling on how non-dd weapons interact with spacecraft .

 

[sideranautae]

But here is what I have learned.

1. Micrometeoroids, from what I can tell, are small. Less than 1cm.

Right. Now, the KE (kinetic energy )when hitting one of those at Traveller interstellar velocities produces more damaging energy (about 1000X more) than being hit by a depleted uranium perpetrator fired by an Abrams M1 tank at point blank range. AND, our little probes today are moving at speeds around 10 km/sec. A few hundreds times LESS than what we are talking about.

That's all you really need to know.

 

[Dracous]

But here is what I have learned.

1. Micrometeoroids, from what I can tell, are small. Less than 1cm.

Right. Now, the KE (kinetic energy )when hitting one of those at Traveller interstellar velocities produces more damaging energy (about 1000X more) than being hit by a depleted uranium perpetrator fired by an Abrams M1 tank at point blank range. AND, our little probes today are moving at speeds around 10 km/sec. A few hundreds times LESS than what we are talking about.

That's all you really need to know.

But from what I have read it is not a direct correlation between energy produced and type of armour. What might work against high velocity micrometeors might be far less useful against high mass large caliber pentrators. It's not just about energy.

So as part of the overall discussion, it is a factor, but not everything. Still does not convince me that starships will be invulnerable to tank gun shells.

 

[sideranautae]

Still does not convince me that starships will be invulnerable to tank gun shells.

You aren't required to believe. No more than you are required to believe that the Earth revolves around the sun. But in this case if X is true (and it is per Trav interplanetary travel rules) then, X HAS to be true.

Simple logic.

 

[Dracous]

Still does not convince me that starships will be invulnerable to tank gun shells.

You aren't required to believe. No more than you are required to believe that the Earth revolves around the sun.

Well, to accept that the system works, and be able to explain it to my players as to why it works, I am required to believe, and provide sound rationalisations. As a referee I am required to know just a little more about the what is going on so I can field player questions. I am just trying to consider all the factors presented, if it leads to a rationale that allows me to explain what is going on then all the better. I am happy to accept things is if the rationale is sound. Not sure we are there yet with the current explanation as to why we have invulnerability with non-DD weapons.

But lets say it does come down to energy involved, I then have a further question. If we go with the argument that starship hulls are invulnerable because of the protection needed against high energy micrometeroid strikes, then I need to ask how missiles are meant to work. Surely the property that makes them invulnerable to the high energy of those strikes will also work to make them invulnerable to missiles?

 

[phavoc]

The higher your velocity, the higher your mass = the more damage you'll do - generally speaking.

But we've already proven with engineering tech today that you can use other materials and processes to offset the damage capability of a weapon. A micro meteorite that is composed of ice will have a much different damage potential factor than say a collapsed-matter penetrator.

For the most part you just have to use some hand-wavium and skip the physics aspects to make the game mechanics work for the game. Process should be used to make the overall system work, but some things you just can't and it's better to skip over them to keep the game fun.

 

[CosmicGamer]

However, I also learned that new horizons approach to pluto has a 0.3% chance of encountering micrometeroids. Does not seem that high a chance, but they are worried enough about it.

Do you know over what period of time? The entire journey?

I have also learned about the fantastic properties of Whipple Armor. Which can be argued to come standard on starships.

Yes, I'd assume a standard Traveller ship of the future would have something even more advanced. So for explaining to players, I'd ignore current day. Maybe it is Whipple 4 shielding just make up a name if the players need that level of detail.

4. Objects over the size of 1cm will pose a serious threat to the ISS.

Even if true, I'd say that Traveller technology is advanced enough that it is not an issue.

However, what does occur to me, is that we are discussing Armour. So it seems to me that the best way to handle personal scale to starship scale, is to assume that starship armor of zero, has a personal value of X, and increases by a factor of Y for every level of starship armour applied.

You are free to do so but I'd like to make some points.

Armor by the rules seams to be mostly for defense against weapons. Off the top of my head I can't think of other ways it's used in the rules.

The ships hull is designed to withstand reentry, refueling within a gas giant, operating in hazardous environments, getting up close and studying the radiation, magnetic fields and other effects of strange stars, studying all manner of stellar phenomenon up close (lab ship is unarmored), and so on.

However, I still cannot find it easy to accept that the starship armour factor level zero is so super that it is invulnerable to all the non-DD weapons listed.

First off I do not have Mercenary 2 so while I have no issue with some weapons, I could use some examples of ones that you think should decimate a ships hull and do major damage to internal systems.

Next, "invulnerable"? Does Mercenary 2 not have rules for combined weapons fire?

To highlight the issues. Lets build a 10 ton spacecraft at TL7. We are Fission powerplant, anti-grav thrusters at 1-G (it's allowable), armed with a pule laser turret, and a crew member. No armor, all remianing space used on fuel. We now have a vehicle, which is compatible in size with most tanks, (actually smaller than the TL-12 grav tank listed in supplement 05-06). I could design this to look like a tank.

What rules are yo using to create the small craft?

I love simplistic rules but the problem is it will not cover everything. Would a 100 ton craft really be capable of having the same armor as a 2000 ton? Someone did math on how the hull of a ship did not increase in square footage at the same ratio as a volume increasing thus suggesting the larger a ship was the thicker it's armor would be. I hope I'm saying that right.

My point, if we accept spacecraft invulnerability to non-DD weapons, we have an issue with either our vehicle design or our spacecraft design.

Only if you assume their frame, maneuver drive, and power plants are the same.

Your disbelieve, that one can take the damage and one can't, could simply be proof that the frames are different. Light grav vehicle chassis, Heavy grav vehicle chassis, Armoured Fighting Vehicles, ship hull. All different.

-------------------
Breath deep, think of your happy place, and say after me "I don't know and that's ok."

If your players ask, tell them it is a game about the future and you can't fully explain things that don't exist yet. If you could, you'd be busy getting patents instead of GMing.

 

[Dracous]

For the most part you just have to use some hand-wavium and skip the physics aspects to make the game mechanics work for the game. Process should be used to make the overall system work, but some things you just can't and it's better to skip over them to keep the game fun.

Yep. Absolutely Agree. If we get the game mechanics right, a level of handwavium will work. Although I have found with my players the the handwavium needs to be logical and consistent, otherwise there are complaints, ridicule and a desire to do something else.

DD weapons work for me just fine vs starships. Based on discussions here, I reckon I am going to go with Non-DD weapons treat unarmored ships like they have a base personal armor value 10, with an extra 10 Armour personal factors for every 1 factor of ships Armour. All non-DD weapon damage is divided by 10 and rounded down when applied to spacecraft. Leave AP values alone. Your pistols and rifles now have no hope, and larger weapons find it tough going. The factor of 10 echoes nicely with the DD rules.

Maybe I will never have to use it, maybe they will never be facing off against that TL-9 junk fighter in their TL-12 grav tank with the 12mm light gauss cannon. But just in case, I have that up my sleeve. (And my players.. well... it's eventually going to happen.. I can feel it in my bones)

And guys, I just want to remind you that I am a Traveller referee. So in the end, as I say to my players, I am not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that I am right! :lol: