New DM here... a few questions

Talking about D20 in general, I can refer to our D&D group, in which we have two Clerics. One is a very standard build, with some powerful (random find) trinkets and rather unspectacular feats. The other (my character) is a 90% optimized crusader type with a powerful PrC with some supplemental feats.
Both are the same level, but the other cleric simply can't compete against mine. He has exactly one skill that I don't (Alchemy) and apart from that, there's nothing he can do that I couldn't do at least as good. In melee combat I am infinitely more powerful.

Looking at Conan, there are some possible ways to completely focus your character on one given regime, which overspecializes the character and makes him rather helpless in other regimes. But tht's rather the exception. There's also the possibility to gimp your character by taking suboptimal, weak or nonsynergistic feats. (Where, however, you might argue that taking nonsynergistic feats makes you more flexible. It depends.)

Anyway, basically I agree with Hervé that System Does Matter. Different systems enable and support totally different playing styles. If you use D20 for a storyteller style, well sure you can do that, but basically what you do is _not_ using the system and the tools it gives you.
 
Maybe to a certain extent, but some systems are far more number crunching oriented than others. With its load of Feats and character options, D20 belong to this category.

You have NEVER played Rolemaster have you? Or Harn? Or C&S?

D20 is extremely simple.

Skeletal rules kinda force you to focus on character background and personality when more rule heavy ones lead to number crunching.

We have had this discussion before. There is no connection between character background and personality and the rules system. None. The two do not relate. You can have detailed and fully fleshed out background in Harn, or a one dimensional Grumpy-Dwarf-with-Axe in Fudge.

It's all matter of balance between mechanics and characterization.

There is no balance. This is not an either /or situation.

More than often, I have seen players reasoning in terms of game mechanics rather than trying to be "in character".

You reason in terms of game mechanics when planning an action that uses the mechanics. Just like in real life. And yes, we do have a system in real life: its called "Physics". I've seen this in Fudge.

Well, I'm not too convinced either. Take two different Soldier build for instance. One mini/maxed with favoured class, proper feats, well thought stats and well chosen weapons and armour, and another one that would rely more on character concept or background, with not so efficient stats/powers/stuff. Both would be somewhat poor in the skill department, but the first one would be a killing machine while the other would be worth nothing (in game terms) after a few levels...

You could doubtless come up with specific builds that don't work, but generally speaking no build will be useless. Also, one might say that if your concept demands a character that has a background and concept that is not an effcient fighter, why are you playing a soldier?

Anyway, I think D20 is a lot about character specialization, as are most class based systems. You have to be the best at what you do, letting the others in the party handle what you can't do.

Yes. In fact, most systems are like this. Even skills based systems don't allow one character to be good at everything. D20 simplifies this with clearly defined archetypes, but most games work out this way.

I'm not saying you can't play D20 without crunching numbers, but if there are some players that maximize the system when other don't, you'll end up with a big power difference within the party.

Actually, you won't. Unless someone is actively attempting to break the character, the level based system limits power differences. You can get this much more in skills based systems.

Talking about D20 in general,

Which I'm not. 3rd Edition has this problem in spades, mostly based around the magic system, and especially affects Clerics and Druids.

two Clerics

mm hmm.

90% optimized crusader type

I see.

powerful PrC

yup.

You seem to have the extremes covered!

If you use D20 for a storyteller style, well sure you can do that, but basically what you do is _not_ using the system and the tools it gives you.

And yet, no part of the system applies to the story. No part covers the plot. The system is irrelevant to roleplaying sections, has no applicability to anything, in fact, except the brute mechanic of skill resolution. It will tell you if what you tried, worked. It has nothing to say about why you tried it, whether it was a good idea or not, how other people will react, how it will affect the plot... nothing, in fact about storytelling at all. Just whether it worked, or not.

So how can it possibly affect background, roleplaying, or story?

Answer: It can't.
 
"I don’t doubt that DR is more realist than AC, and as I said, I like the idea but not so much the mechanics. BTW, how do you handle Sneak Attacks with the “One Damage Minimum” rule?
Extra damage from Sneak Attacks are added only if the regular damage bypass or pierces the target’s armour. This optional rule allows to pass Sneak Attacks 100% of the time. In our games, we ruled that the regular damage has to be higher than the target’s DR for the SA to take effect (of course, there are always Finesse Attacks that can allow to bypass armour totally, but that’s not really the point here).

What’s the “piling rule” anyways?"

For sneak attack: No. You would get one damage but no sneak (just plain logic here).
The piling rule is every other attacker beyond the first get a cumulative +1 to hit. If you use the rules correctly your 10th level soldier will go down in no time against fifty black kingdom tribsman.

For the rest of my opinion please see kintire post.

Nomad are fine IMO you get some bonus feat, good skills selection and similar class ability with barb and borderer.

Could you affirm with a 100% certitude that a 10th level nomad will loose against a 10th level barbarian significativly more than 50% of the time? I don't think so.
 
treeplanter said:
Could you affirm with a 100% certitude that a 10th level nomad will loose against a 10th level barbarian significativly more than 50% of the time? I don't think so.

That depends on the setup of the encounter. If the Nomad is mounted and starts a good distance away, then he'll win against a Barbarian on foot most of the time. The Nomad might for instance just Spirited Charge the Barb with a Lance and Triple-Damage him into the middle of next week.
The terrain also plays a role; it may be so rugged as to make a mounted charge impossible, or it may be the Nomad's FT which makes him more difficult to hit.
But if both start on foot and within Melee distance on neutral ground, I'm pretty sure the Barb will win most of the time. The Nomad basically has a chance only if he wins initiative. As a wild guess, I'd weigh the odds at least 70-30 in favour of the Barb.
 
AGNKim- your characters recieve one feat at first level plus another if they choose a Favoured Class (Soldier,Pirate orTemptress for Zingaran) in addition to the one given in the Class features.
I believe you hit the nail on the head about the setting also- my players have enjoyed their same characters for years even though many people on the forums would say they have made poor choices.
I re-read my same yellowed Ace books Ive carried around and been in love with since the 70's. Also remember all your adventures can start out like the true Conan stories- no armour or not what they had last week, a dagger or manacles for a weapon and on the run from their last employers! I have kept a group of people playing this setting for going on 5 years and it seems to work for them.
It sounds like you have the right attitude to get what you want from this. Years of pleasure. Hope to see more of you here on the forums in the future.
 
"But if both start on foot and within Melee distance on neutral ground, I'm pretty sure the Barb will win most of the time. The Nomad basically has a chance only if he wins initiative. As a wild guess, I'd weigh the odds at least 70-30 in favour of the Barb. "

70-30? Well I hope you get some simulation proof for me. Because the difference come down to barbarian getting uncanny dodge vs Nomad get 2 extra feat and a sligthly better parry bonus, it is more than doubtful to create a 40% gap. One of those feat could be greater initiative or ligthning reflexe so nomad have more odds of winning init., a weapon focus, toughness so he have more life. The almost have the same freaking abilities.
 
treeplanter said:
70-30? Well I hope you get some simulation proof for me. Because the difference come down to barbarian getting uncanny dodge vs Nomad get 2 extra feat and a sligthly better parry bonus, it is more than doubtful to create a 40% gap.

Actually it isn't. If initiative is equal and the barbarian wins, he will almost be guaranteed to take out the flat-footed nomad with a leaping raging reckless power attack triggering a pair of massive damage saves before the nomad can even take an action.

If the nomad wins initiative then it's a fairly equal fight. The nomad certainly has the edge and it will come down to who can sunder or trip or grapple or took fleet of foot and a bow etc. etc.

So 70/30 is about right.

If it takes place out of melee range so initiative doesn't factor in then it's pretty equal.
 
First off, note that I will assume the system completely RAW and core rules only, since there are a thousand possible houserules and we can't consider them all.

Well, the Barbarian would be stupid if he didn't have Improved Ini either, and otoh there's a lot to take for the Nomad before Lightning Reflexes really make sense. So assuming sensible builds for both, they are going to have pretty much the same Ini mod. So both have a 50-50 chance of winning Ini.

So what could the builds credibly look like? I'm not trying to tailor the characters for this encounter, but to figure out sensible and survivable builds that you might actually encounter in play.

Raw stats for both: 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 12 (incidentally, in this order. This includes stat upgrades until level 10). A Cimmerian Barb will have Str 20 and Int 12.

A Nomad worth his salt will certainly have Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge. A Hyrkanian is also likely to have Mounted Archery and Far Shot. That's 3-5 feats that will easily decide the combat in a scenario where he can make a mounted charge, but won't help him at all in a melee on foot.
If he's clever he'll have Improved Initiative. Let's also give him Weapon Focus: Scimitar. And Power Attack.

The Barb is just as likely to have Improved Ini and PA. It's difficult to say if he's going to have other relevant feats; for instance he might have Improved Grapple and even Crushing Grip. Fighting Madness is also likely, but we'll leave it out for now.

Let's assume that both have the same armour - but the Barb's DR is going to be 1 better because of his class feature.

Combat stats:
Nomad: Attack +15/+10 (Scim), DD 18, PD 19, DR6, HP84, AP6*, Ini +14
Barb: Attack +15/+10, DD 20, PD 18, DR7, AP8, Ini +14

*) This is the first big If. If one fighter can pierce the other's armour, but not vice versa, that's going to be a HUGE advantage for one of them.

Let's give the Nomad a Scimitar and the Barb gets a Broadsword. No 2-handed weapons for either. Both can draw a Light offhand weapon if they want to. Maybe both have ITWF even.
Maybe there are shields available, that would be a certain advantage for the Nomad.

Now they roll for initiative, it's a 50-50 chance for both.

If the Barb wins Initiative: Nomad is flat-footed, cannot Dodge or Parry, Barb charges (+2) with 2H-PA -9, can only miss on a natural 1, pierces armour, inflicts ~d10 + 7 + 18 - 3 on a hit = 95% to kill on first attack. Hell, even if the Nomad for some reason has DR8 and the Barb doesn't pierce it, there's still a 70% chance he'll roll at least 20 damage!

If Nomad wins Ini: Barb is flat-footed but can use Uncanny Dodge. Nomad charges in, gets Nomad Charge bonus but may not be able to pierce armour. So if he pumps up his Power Attack to make Massive Damage possible, he's unlikely to overcome the Barb's unimpeded Defense. If he plays it safe to ensure a hit, the Barb will shrug off a good part of the damage and just soak the rest.
Then unless one of them has another ace up the sleeve (i.e. special maneuver), it's going to be just a war of attrition and the side with better average damage or simply more luck will win.
Of course there's still the chance for a Freak Roll, like a Critical Hit or a lucky Power Attack. Either way, in this sub-scenario the forces are pretty evenly matched, since both have near-identical attack, defense and hit points. For simplicity's sake let's just say it's 50-50 here.

Special Attack: if one combatant has a suitable Special Attack, that can also change the duel drastically. Maybe the Nomad has Improved Sunder and manages to chop up the Barb's sword. But maybe the Barb has Crushing Grip and simply grapples and squeezes the Nomad like Elmira smothers a Tiny Toon. This is really difficult to say.

The Nomad might have the best chances if he also had Improved Critical:Scimitar, that would give him a 30% chance of rolling a threat, but alas, even a confirmed crit with a very good damage roll (2*(d8+4+PA)-DR) may not be enough to cut the battle short.

So to sum up:
If the Barb wins Initiative, which will happen 50% of the time, the fight will be over as soon as it has begun and the Nomad will be a red patch on the ground.
If the Nomad wins Initiative, also at 50%, there's again a rough 50% for each fighter to ultimately carry the victory. 50% times 50% is 25%.

So the final odds are 75-25 in favour of the Barbarian.

Of course this scenario vastly changes if you apply house rules and nerf 2HPA. Then the odds would probably be a LOT closer. But as I said, in this kind of simulation we have to stick to the RAW to keep it comparable.
 
Wow, you guys will use any excuse to start fighting about what you don't like with the Conan system. :shock:

AGNKim, you've got it right. Play the game for the setting and flavor. The "broken" rules aren't as big a deal as these guys make them out to be. I've been running Conan for 3 years with only a single house rule and that concerns Fate Points. The other RAW work perfectly fine for adventuring in the Hyborian Age IMHO.
 
flatscan said:
Wow, you guys will use any excuse to start fighting about what you don't like with the Conan system. :shock:

AGNKim, you've got it right. Play the game for the setting and flavor. The "broken" rules aren't as big a deal as these guys make it. I've been running Conan for 3 years with only a single house rule and that concerns Fate Points. The other RAW work perfectly fine for adventuring in the Hyborian Age IMHO. A bow does not need to be balanced with a greatsword for Crom's sake.
Yeah, all these fights and "my barbarian is stronger than your nomad"...so long for the flavour of the setting :shock:
 
flatscan said:
Wow, you guys will use any excuse to start fighting about what you don't like with the Conan system. :shock:

AGNKim, you've got it right. Play the game for the setting and flavor. The "broken" rules aren't as big a deal as these guys make them out to be. I've been running Conan for 3 years with only a single house rule and that concerns Fate Points. The other RAW work perfectly fine for adventuring in the Hyborian Age IMHO.

Okay, I should have started a new thread or taken Clovenhoof's comments to an existing thread where races were talked about because, seriously, the constant threadjacking to have an argument about whether d20 is any good or not and the balance problems in certain areas is just ridiculous.

I don't mean to criticize the game mechanics at every turn, yet it seems to come out that way because of how old arguments creep into new threads. Given that any imbalances in RPGs are solvable by GMs either through house rules or through adjusting obstacles, the numbercrunching doesn't have to infect every thread, and those of us who spend time analyzing the game can have specific threads devoted to how to fix balance issues.
 
AGNKim said:
1. Is there any Healing magic in Conan RPG? I have read the spells, but none seem to bestow heals. I see a Scholar can be a Lay Priest, so I would assume there is some sort of Priestly magic (to some extent).

What we find is that the lack of quick recharge means having multiple combat encounters in a short span is quite dangerous. That's neither good nor bad, but it's something to be aware of.

My experiences with D&D or the like is that you get roughed up, you refresh right away, then you go get roughed up again and call it a day. With Conan, it's you get roughed up and either take a huge risk continuing or you take a while off which will be no longer than three days.


AGNKim said:
2. Is there some sort of quick-n-dirty Race guide? I'm pretty familiar with REH works, but even I am daunted by the information presented in the books, but at the same time, feel there isn't enough to decide which to play. Has anyone written a paper with each Race given a few paragraphs to assist new players in deciding which is right for them?

Try http://hyboria.xoth.net/races/human_races.htm and other pages on that site.


AGNKim said:
5. Any hints? :)

Tricky mechanics IMO include grappling and sorcery, the latter more so for building characters and managing power points, but there are a variety of rules to understand and not everything is well defined mechanically in terms of how certain spells work.

Be aware that one-shotting things in combat can get very easy. I'm not going to go into high STR, two-handed, Power Attack, bardiche arguments because there are tons of those in other threads. Just realize that it helps to understand what is highly efficient when designing suitable encounters.

Just a note about what sort of race to play from a flavor standpoint. At first, I was bothered by the idea that it was better to play a Hyborian as I think of the Hyborians as dull, but I realized that too much weirdness makes for an implausible group and is just an exercise in weird for the sake of weird and not to make a better story. Nations in Conan are not homogenous. You find mercenaries, merchants, slaves, or whatever from everywhere. But, it can be inconvenient to stand out from the rest of the party, ironically something I discovered playing a Hyborian. This varies depending upon how social the group is, of course. Wanderers or mercs can more feasibly be diverse than adventuring aristocrats.

I recommend allowing people to play for a while before finalizing their characters. Even people who know D&D 3.5 are going to find that there are differences. For instance, 3.5 lends itself to characters being magic dependent whereas we find skills to be huge in Conan since there isn't magic to solve every problem. Of course, if you just have a combatfest campaign, skills are less important.
 
Hervé said:
Who's strongest? Spider-Man or Obi-Wan Kenobi? :wink:

Hard to say

Young Obi-Wan or old Obi-Wan? The force is strong but on the other hand what can the jedi do against web and spider sense? I'll say it depend of the initiative. But I think both are stronger than the barb.

@Clovenoff: I think everybody aggree that power attack and two-handed weapon combined with massive damage is stupid, why still use exemple with RAW anyway? Also you assume in your exemple that the nomad is oriented on mounted combat, wich IMO is not a must. Basicly Barbarian and Nomad are basicly the same with different favlour. It basicly read "replace uncanny dodge with bonus feat". This is far from making Nomad underpowered and unplayable. Both are pretty much balanced, barbarian being a bit more versatile and Nomad a bit more customizable.

the thing overpowered by RAW is TWO-HANDED WEAPON combined with POWER ATTACK combined with MASSIVE DAMAGE. that is something everybody aggree.

Hence my suggestion to AGNkim is make house rule for that for his campain. Wich is in my opinion is far more constructive than "Play a barbarian. Cimmerian ideally. Every other archetype suck".
 
treeplanter said:
the thing overpowered by RAW is TWO-HANDED WEAPON combined with POWER ATTACK combined with MASSIVE DAMAGE. that is something everybody aggree.

You'll note my example didn't use 2-h weapons... At 10th level sneak attack will cause massive damage, reckless attack will cause massive damage, power attack with 1-handed weapons will cause massive damage, critical hits with decent bonuses, such as high str from rageing will cause massive damage.

Almost anything combined with massive damage is overpowered, lol.
 
Yeah I guess

On the other end it make combat shorter, and it is pretty Conanesque. Whomever act first is likely to kill the oposition. In a sense a like it better this than a 1 hours grind combat (ala 4th ed)

2 feats i like for the nomad is the improved bull rush and drive your ennemies, give you a +7/+5 while charging, almost garanting you'll hit the 20+ damage if you win initiative. You can also take bull strike, and combine this with leaping charge for a first round onslaught
 
Some of my recommendations.

Use the rules under the Savant class. Its not so much a new class, but a major alteration (and improvement) to the existing Scholar class/Sorcery system. It makes the job of creating NPC Sorcerers a whole lot easier on DMs.

If you need ideas on NPCs for Conan, check this link out.

If you need to read more stories, then check out this link (for the love of Crom, you guys got to read The Beast from the Abyss!)

Some folks might balk at the idea of throwing D&D monsters in the Conan setting, but their are lots of creatures that are right for the Hyborian Age. Some prime examples are: Yuan-ti (Snakemen), Allip/Gibbering Mouther/Chaos Beast (Lovecrafian horrors), Demons & Devils (Demons? Devils? They are all the same in Hyboria), Dinosaurs (why the hell not!). Naturally, you would want to change the names and descriptions. When I convert monsters from 3.5 D&D to Conan, I like to turn the creature's Natural AC bonus into its base Natural DR. If it already has a DR score (like DR 5/silver or good), then I ignore the score and apply the damage bypass to the base Natural DR score. If it has Energy Resistance (like Resist fire 10, acid 10), I ignore the scores and note what energy attacks it's Natural DR could resist (I dont apply natural and armor DR to resist energy attacks). I apply the Dodge Defense score in the normal way. I also apply Spell-like Abilities as Special Attacks or Abilities, or just ignore them altogether if they are to fantastic. I allow magical and supernatural creatures (like Fays and Demons) to have a Base Magic Attack Bonuses and Power Points as a Scholar level equal to their Hit Dice, plus the other rules that apply to a spellcasting Scholar (I like to apply their spells as whole style groups, or all if they are powerful).

I hope this would be useful to you.
 
Yeah, all these fights and "my barbarian is stronger than your nomad"...so long for the flavour of the setting

I don't see why you can't have both. But anyway, Clovenhoof has neatly succeeded in proving himself wrong. He has established that if the fight is in the Nomad's particular niche, he will usually win, if its in the babarian's, he will.

Balance does NOT mean "performs exactly aas well aas each other in all situations".
 
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