Valen is my name
Mongoose
now loads of people are going to type essays on how a tabletop game cant refect the show AND be fair etc... well never hear the last of it now, i reckon they wait for someone to mention the words 'the show' lol
New Beam rules.
- Thread starter Stonehorse
- Start date
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Da Boss said:
That's true, but ships are limited to 12 hits in BFG, so one hit from a weapon is something to be concerned about. A 4-point Eldar pulsar lance array could kill you in volley if it rolled well.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Reaverman said:
True, one number alone used to convey many things.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
...none of which means a beam weapon would be less effective against low-hull ships than high-hull ships.
Unless all the low-hull ships are going to be ret-conned with Minbari-like stealth systems that only affect targetting of beam weapons, the explanation that hull value isn't just armour doesn't hold a drop of water.
Unless all the low-hull ships are going to be ret-conned with Minbari-like stealth systems that only affect targetting of beam weapons, the explanation that hull value isn't just armour doesn't hold a drop of water.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Implementing a "cap" may be wise, while having very little numerical effect on the mean:
Infinite maximum, avg. number of hits: 1.
6-cap, avg. number of hits: .984375
5-cap, avg. number of hits: .96875
4-cap, avg. number of hits: .9375
3-cap, avg. number of hits: .875
After the 4-cap, that's not a repulsively high difference.
Infinite maximum, avg. number of hits: 1.
6-cap, avg. number of hits: .984375
5-cap, avg. number of hits: .96875
4-cap, avg. number of hits: .9375
3-cap, avg. number of hits: .875
After the 4-cap, that's not a repulsively high difference.
ok on beams - try it out on averages comparing new ones and SAP ones.
against hull 6 slightly more hits
against hull 5 around same number of hits
hull 4 slightly less hits.
apart from the lucky string of continual 4s thats how the 4+ to hit beams are working out. try it and you will see I am right.
against hull 6 slightly more hits
against hull 5 around same number of hits
hull 4 slightly less hits.
apart from the lucky string of continual 4s thats how the 4+ to hit beams are working out. try it and you will see I am right.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Your case is even stronger than that, katadder -- beams effectively got a drop in value vs. Hull 5, too; and a substantial one, at that, given that you assume SAP on the beams (only major beam types as exceptions to this: Breakiri Graviton Beam, Abbai Combat Laser, Narn Shock Beam, Drakh Light Neutron Cannon, Vorlon Discharge Gun)
Avg number of hits (capped to 6 dice) vs. Hull 4 at SAP: 1.7747
Avg number of hits (capped to 6 dice) vs. Hull 5 at SAP: 1.1301
Avg number of hits (capped to 6 dice) vs. Hull 6 at SAP: 0.6952
Avg number of hits (uncapped) with new Beam mechainc: 1.0000.
Hull 5 is getting a slight upgrade, too!
Avg number of hits (capped to 6 dice) vs. Hull 4 at SAP: 1.7747
Avg number of hits (capped to 6 dice) vs. Hull 5 at SAP: 1.1301
Avg number of hits (capped to 6 dice) vs. Hull 6 at SAP: 0.6952
Avg number of hits (uncapped) with new Beam mechainc: 1.0000.
Hull 5 is getting a slight upgrade, too!
Well, you could look at it as the beams getting slightly worse vs Hull 5 but you always have the choice of target so will normally choose the Hull 6 target over the Hull 5/4 one. In this respect beams are probably about the same as a Super AP one in 1st ed. I favour capping though (at 3 or 4) just to stop some of the stupid strings of luck that "can" happen...CZuschlag said:
Well, its seems to do what is intended, based on those numbers...
make hull 4 ships a little more viable against a big one, make hull 6 a little softer against the beams, leveling the playing field when the big guys are brawling.
What it will do is force a complete re-jigger of all the weapon stats across the fleets. Basically, requiring all ships to be rebalanced. Not to seem pessimistic, but lets see how long 2e lasts before the first call for broken ships is...
Chern
make hull 4 ships a little more viable against a big one, make hull 6 a little softer against the beams, leveling the playing field when the big guys are brawling.
What it will do is force a complete re-jigger of all the weapon stats across the fleets. Basically, requiring all ships to be rebalanced. Not to seem pessimistic, but lets see how long 2e lasts before the first call for broken ships is...
Chern
Greg Smith
Mongoose
There are indeed a lot of moving parts. With the changes to many of the fleets, you will struggle to find a single ship that is exactly the same.
I am not a big fan of balanced based on the 'on average' profile. Which is not to say I do not use such a stat in looking at balance, but I have never been bothered in a game by a 'string of average rolls'. I look for how likely am I to see a string of really good rolls in any one game.
We had this debate before, back when we talked about the x-6 crits and were they too strong. The answer I got was they are not that likely. My answer was I expected to see them every game I played, at least once. I have the same answer with the new beam rule. I expect that just about every game I play I will see a three die beam putting nine or more hits out, and an equally likely roll of flat nothing. Balanced I guess but no fun.
We're helping hull 4 out but by in effect dumping SAP and AP for a flat roll to fix the issue with SAP beams...seems to me the issue was with SAP beams not the beam mechanic. Mongoose has, in my limited value opinoin, gotten its wires crossed...they are tweaking the hell out of stealth, which has a basic mechanical issue (one die to rule them all), and throwing in the towel on the beam mechanic, which only has a tweaking issue with low hull ships (and realistically low damage as well).
I don't know what the solution is...I have made a few suggestions in the past...but I know this one doesn't feel right.
(to CZuschlag - a few of the smaller hull 6 ships are gonna need a boost in addition to the larger hull 4 ships needing a reduction)
Ripple
We had this debate before, back when we talked about the x-6 crits and were they too strong. The answer I got was they are not that likely. My answer was I expected to see them every game I played, at least once. I have the same answer with the new beam rule. I expect that just about every game I play I will see a three die beam putting nine or more hits out, and an equally likely roll of flat nothing. Balanced I guess but no fun.
We're helping hull 4 out but by in effect dumping SAP and AP for a flat roll to fix the issue with SAP beams...seems to me the issue was with SAP beams not the beam mechanic. Mongoose has, in my limited value opinoin, gotten its wires crossed...they are tweaking the hell out of stealth, which has a basic mechanical issue (one die to rule them all), and throwing in the towel on the beam mechanic, which only has a tweaking issue with low hull ships (and realistically low damage as well).
I don't know what the solution is...I have made a few suggestions in the past...but I know this one doesn't feel right.
(to CZuschlag - a few of the smaller hull 6 ships are gonna need a boost in addition to the larger hull 4 ships needing a reduction)
Ripple
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Ripple:
Probably. The point is completely logical.
I'm looking at balanced to weak small-damage-6's needing a bit of compensating help. These would likely include the Maximus, Chronos, Rohric, Omega, Altaran, Warbird, Strikehawk, Var'Nic, Xaak, Stormfalcon.
Others, like the Avioki and Kaliva, wouldn't need any rejiggering; their beams actually now become (gasp!) useful.
As to a couple of the other 6's out there --- well, we knew the Wahant, Khatrik, Rongoth, Mishakur, Lakara, Mankhat, Shadow Ship, G'Quan --- already knew these needed a little love. With the new E-mines, the G'Quan may have already gotten that!
Probably. The point is completely logical.
I'm looking at balanced to weak small-damage-6's needing a bit of compensating help. These would likely include the Maximus, Chronos, Rohric, Omega, Altaran, Warbird, Strikehawk, Var'Nic, Xaak, Stormfalcon.
Others, like the Avioki and Kaliva, wouldn't need any rejiggering; their beams actually now become (gasp!) useful.
As to a couple of the other 6's out there --- well, we knew the Wahant, Khatrik, Rongoth, Mishakur, Lakara, Mankhat, Shadow Ship, G'Quan --- already knew these needed a little love. With the new E-mines, the G'Quan may have already gotten that!
For me it looks liek that the change is an pure Math-based one.
Normaly a 8AD Beam shoud hit 5 times against hull 6 with the old rules But what i have seen was at least 10 Hits in every game when beam was used. so if i take this in the 4+ we will see by an 6AD beam at least 20 hit with quad damage. So then a RL Minbary is cutting youre WL ship in one round almost in two halves.
Normaly a 8AD Beam shoud hit 5 times against hull 6 with the old rules But what i have seen was at least 10 Hits in every game when beam was used. so if i take this in the 4+ we will see by an 6AD beam at least 20 hit with quad damage. So then a RL Minbary is cutting youre WL ship in one round almost in two halves.
We shall hafta see how much more AD is gonna hafta be given out to those ships that relied on Beams totally, shadows, vorlons, and Drakh specifically. If I am understanding it correctly more AD will be given to these ships sounds like a lotta dice to roll as well.
Assume Shadow ship now get 12AD of Beam thats a lotta rolling and in my opinionabout as useful as the Abbai's 10 interceptor theory. Sure it looks good one paper but I have yet to get through 2 rolls without having perhaps 3 dice left to roll.
I dunno just curious as to how to balance it all out shall be where the real fight begins I think.
Assume Shadow ship now get 12AD of Beam thats a lotta rolling and in my opinionabout as useful as the Abbai's 10 interceptor theory. Sure it looks good one paper but I have yet to get through 2 rolls without having perhaps 3 dice left to roll.
I dunno just curious as to how to balance it all out shall be where the real fight begins I think.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
New beams are better against Hull 6, slightly better against hull 5, weaker against hull 4 or less (compared to SAP beams).
